Hi dpmichael. I used to jump start my vegetable seeds this way quite a few years ago using wallpaper paste. You need to use the type without fungicides etc!!!! Seem to remember using it roughly double strength to give a gel consistency. It not only starts seeds well, but makes them easier to space when sowing. Use an icing bag idea (eg poly bag with a cut out of the corner. Then you can squeeze gel and germinated seeds into pots/trays/open ground depending on how you want to grow them on.
Good luck
Starting seeds in gelatin
Thank you philomel. I do not have a problem with starting seeds straight into the soil, as already now (Late January) it feels, smells and shows like Spring - i know there will still be cold winds in 2 - 4 weeks time, but it is ok without very experimntal methods - yet, i like to learn other methods. Your tip sounds fine; so far, I have only used glue to distribute small seeds even; this year I found an even better one: You know kebabs, I am sure. When preparing them, cooks have a large red pepper sprinkler made of cheap aluminium. I took the cap off of one of those, and with a drill bit opened some wholes big enough for my danelion seeds (it is a delicacy here) and sprinkle the seeds walking along the small ditch which I later cover with an inch of soil. How's that ??
Paulgrow, could you direct me to the European measures ??
I have absolutely no idea about quarts and gallons...while I admire the Dutch for their agricultural knowledge.
Best wishes to all
Dimitri
DP Go back to the 1st post on this thread and click on that hyperlink. That has the metric measurements.
Paul
Got to tell y'all, I am very disappointed in the results I had with the crystals. I tried Hostas, cockscomb & zinnias about 3 weeks ago. The Zinnia & Cockscomb came up very well in just a few days, one was about 2 inches tall, then, suddenly they all just keeled over!! Most were too small to transplant so they just went to never, never land. The Hostas never did come up. Now I did have success with unpeeled brug seeds. Maybe it was because they have a larger stalk??? So maybe this method will still be ok for larger seeds. I am going to try some moon vine and Hyacinth beans, & maybe Castor beans.
Arlene, lets hear from you!!
Read in a garden magazine recently that an old French way of starting seeds was to make your own "peat pot" type seed starters by using the (peat/vermiculite/perlite) soiless mix, as a base, but instead of wetting it with regular water, wet it with gelatin water. Once the soiless mix is wetted, form the mix into little "peat pot" type balls, or seed starters. This also eliminates the need for slotted trays, as these are individual and do not need pots/containers.
The gelatin was reported to help hold the "peat pots" together, while also preventing them from drying out too quickly, and adding nutrients to the soiless mix.
Seems this would be kinder to the little sprouts, as you could transplant the whole thing right into the ground (as is...), without the disturbance of taking them out of the pure gelatin, and risking transplant shock, or tearing the tender roots.
This message was edited Nov 7, 2003 12:10 AM
That sounds an interesting method seedpicker. I'll give that one a try.
Interesting concept. philomel, let us know how it works out for you.
Yes. I'll report back next spring when I try it out :)
Does anyone have any further reports on this method? Thanks, John
Ahhh..here we go again...LOL
Hey John, did you try it?
§
I think we are kind of on hold with this til spring.
No, I have not tried it yet. I was very much opposed to this idea, as I remembered from Biology 101 just what kind of nasties one could grow from the slightest contamination (such as a cough).
HOWEVER, there is a technique I wanted to try, where one does a seed embryo rescue, dissecting it out of the seed and growing it on a nutrient media, often agar. That would require some scientific equipment, and perhaps mixing up a media, things a bit beyond my scientific grasp. Then I remembered this gelatin idea, and thought that should work as well.
Otherwise, I think one can purchase Petri dishes or test tubes already full of agar/nutrient media to use. I am still concerned about contamination...
Thanks,
John
That's exactly how I feel about it.
Thanks,
shirley
Well...
update!
I did a test using coral vine seeds. I sowed some in regular soiless mix, and others in my adapted version, by using the gelatin water to wet my soiless mix, instead of just plain water.
It really worked well!
It held the soil together really nicely, and the gleatin seeds not only sprouted about a week sooner than the ones in regular soiless mix, but grew much more quickly than the others!
I'm impressed with this method!
-Taylor
I think that is because you fed them a form of Nitrogen. I would be careful they do not get too leggy and collapse.
JMO JMO JMO
§hirley
Taylor, how large are your seedlings at this point? Have you noticed any sign of mold or damping off from the gelatin seedlings? Please keep us posted of your progress! It will be interesting to see your final results as the seedlings grow.
Yes, Scooterbug, there are nutrients in the gelatin, that is kinda the point...
They are not leggy at all. They'd only be leggy if they weren't getting enough light, not because they got too much fertilizer. They'd burn(turn brown) if they were getting too much nitrogen. Gelatin is a rather mild dose-perfect for seedlings which normally are suggested to have 1/4 the normal strenght of regular fertilizer.
They grew so well, they have been transplanted into pots with soil already. They are well on their way.
I'll have to start some other things this way.
Zanymuse-
I had two damp off(out of about 20) that were tested in the regular soil, ---but NONE, out of the batch in gelatin...
-Taylor
Taylor,
What kind of gelatine did you use? Jello? Knox Sparkling Gelatine?
Also, did your "gelatine peat pots" actually hold together on their own, as separate little things? If so, I guess they would be suitable for direct planting in the ground if they hold together that long. How do you water them without causing them to disintegrate?
-- Burton --
This is interesting! No Damping off and strong seedlings. Sounds like you may be onto something with this method!
How diluted was your gelatin water? was it too diluted to actually set up or was it still able to gel? And did it then serve as moisture or did you need to water them as usual?
I feel like a kid in school who is watching an experiment!
I used the knox unflavored gelatin. I really don't remember how I mixed it, and there certainly wasn't a section between jello and pie instructions, discussing mudballs! lol...). I think I just made one packet per the instructions for jello. (It starts out watery, but thickens as you let it set). I then used a plastic sink tub and slowly hand mixed in enough soil and gelatin until it was perfectly moist, but not wet, or dry. I then sqeezed them into little balls.
You have to mix it in with the soiless mix pretty quickly, or it will set, if you leave it(obviously...).
They held together pretty well on their own, and firmed more as time went by, but cannot tell you exactly how well, as I put them in the slotted parts of a platic egg carton, which sort-of cradled them. That was my "tray" and kept them neat and from falling over. I only had them in this about a week and a half, before they were sprouted and already outgrowing their little "mudballs". I had them near a fan to help with circulation, but it also caused the tops to dry out a little, so I did have to water once, but just a little on top.
You guys need to try it! Let me know how YOU do!
The gelatin is cheap, and you could experiment with seeds that you have plenty of...no risk
-Taylor
CoCo
Mar 07, 2004
Everyone has their own way of staarting seeds and being you are all talking about gelatin, this is the way that I start my seeds.
After filling the flats with seed-starting mix I sow the seeds and then lightly sprinkle gelatin powder over them using an old salt shaker. Then press down the gelatin and seeds in and cover everything with a thin layer of starting mix. Then mist the top and cover it with wet paper towels.
Place your flats in warm area, around 65-75 deg. Keep misting the paper towels occasionally to keep them moist and be sure to check the flats for sprouting.
Once you see new growth coming, remove the paper towels. Once the seedlings start taking off, feed the plants liquid fertilizer with a teaspoon of gelatin powder mixed into 1 gal of water.
I've never heard of using the gelatine like that CoCo, that's very interesting, thanks
troy
Mar 12, 2004
i get unflavored gelatin in 10 lb boxes much cheaped then the Knox brand if anyone wants i will add it to my scif store i just brought home abiut a pound and am going to try this for starting my tomatoes and basil this week. so if i understand all this right i can make the gelatin as i would for eating then mix it into my spaghnum moss to make it wet then use the mix to fill my seed trays.
Equilibrium
Mar 20, 2006
Bumping this for more information. Did anyone find any online sources of unflavored gelatin?
This method is similar to Tissue Culture, thats what I do to most of my plants. Getting the seed clean is pretty easy. Shake the seeds in 70% Alcohol for about 30 seconds, rinse with sterile water, then use a 15% bleach solution for 15 mintues, triple rinse in sterile water and decant... Seeds should be pretty sterile... I used this on some hosta seeds and it worked very well.... My jars that I am starting my plants in are sterile from a pressure cooker... and I use a clean box and a laminar flow hood too to prevent any mold spores from getting into the container... if you need any help on this please email me!
Chris
That original link does not work--does anyone have the new URL for it?
Equilibrium
Aug 09, 2006
Oh my, you're right. It doesn't work. I remember reading that link and it was very good. Maybe you could contact JanetR by D-mail and ask if she possibly saved it to her hard drive? I'd be interested in saving it myself right about now.
Your local Chinese grocery will have gelatin and agar. Ethnic stores are usually cheaper then the seven American grocers. I have also bought kosher gelatin at a Mexican grocer both bulk and packaged.
Larry
Imagine that Botany an 'librium on the same forum!
sure wish somebody had that original URL; the original poster is not a subscriber...
Ah well, I guess if wishes were horses, I'd have me a herd...
Debbie
I think you can still d-mail her and Dave will forward a message that she has mail here.
;)
tried that
Equilibrium
Aug 11, 2006
I see that JanetR first registered in 2001 but she is no longer active. People come and people go and sooner or later she will check in.
Just in case my url goes down I am going to cut and paste what was at the URL I posted a link to.
Quoting:
All About Agar
Background Information
With its distinctive smell, one can easily distinguish agar from the other materials commonly found in a laboratory. Chemically, agar is a polymer made up of subunits of the sugar galactose, and is a component of the cell walls of several species of red algae that are usually harvested in eastern Asia and California. Dissolved in boiling water and cooled, laboratory agar looks gelatinous. Although agar's chief use is as a culture medium for various microorganisms, particularly for bacteria, its other less well-known uses include serving as a thickening for soups and sauces, in jellies and ice cream, in cosmetics, for clarifying beverages, and for sizing fabrics.(1)
One might ask why agar, as opposed to regular gelatin (like that found in Jello), is used for culturing bacteria. The answer is agar, unlike gelatin, won't be degraded (eaten) by bacteria. Also, agar is firmer and stronger than gelatin. It's still possible, however, to use gelatin as a culture medium for bacteria if agar is unavailable.(2)
The Difco & BBL Manual gives more details about agar and its usage:(3)
Agar is a phycocolloid extracted from a group of red-purple marine algae (Class Rhodophyceae) including Gelidium, Pterocladia and Gracilaria. Gelidium is the preferred source for agars. Impurities, debris, minerals and pigment are reduced to specified levels during manufacture.
Agar is a gel at room temperature, remaining firm at temperature as high as 65°C. Agar melts at approximately 85°C, a different temperature from that at which it solidifies, 32-40°C. This property is known as hysteresis. Agar is generally resistant to shear forces; however, different agars may have different gel strengths or degrees of stiffness.
Agar is typically used in a final concentration of 1-2% for solidifying culture media. Smaller quantities (0.05-0.5%) are used in media for motility studies (0.5% w/v) and for growth of anaerobes (0.1%) and microaerophiles.
Specifications for bacteriological grade agar include good clarity, controlled gelation temperature, controlled melting temperature, good diffusion characteristics, absence of toxic bacterial inhibitors and relative absence of metabolically useful minerals and compounds.
Our Recommendation
For students growing bacteria at home without the supervision of a teacher (for example, investigating bacteria growth at various places around the house), it's important to use an agar formulation that does not preferentially grow one kind of bacteria over another. The worst case would be one that preferentially grew pathogenic bacteria. Therefore, we recommend a plain nutrient agar, of which LB agar is a subtype.
There are many different suppliers for LB agar. Because some suppliers will often only sell to students directly, you may have to have your teacher order for you. If you are doing a project that involves inoculation and plate streaking, we highly recommend conducting the experiment at a school lab under teacher supervision.
Some suggested suppliers are:
Supplier Catalog Number Contact Info Cost Number of plates
Science Kit & Boreal Laboratories WW6564600(4) www.sciencekit.com
800-828-7777 $9.57 for 6 pre-poured plates of nutrient agar 6
Carolina Biological Supplies 82-1045 www.carolina.com
800-334-5551 $23.25 per kit (enough for 20 plates) 20
Bio-Rad Laboratories 166-0600EDU www.bio-rad.com
800-424-6723 $8.00 for 6.9g of LB Nutrient Agar Powder 40
Sigma L7025 www.sigma-aldrich.com
800-325-5832 $63.60 for 100 tablets (1.68g per tablet) 500
Common Types of Agar
Type of Agar Brief Description Suitable for Student Use?
Blood Agar Contains blood cells from an animal (e.g. a sheep); most bacteria will grow on this medium. No, due to potential for contamination from human contact.
Chocolate Agar Comprised of sheep blood that provides the X and V factors necessary for Haemophilus growth, this is a nutrient medium which is used in culturing fastidious organisms such as Haemophilus species and Neisseria. Chocolate agar, however, does not reveal hemolysis data, so species differentiation among the members of Haemophilus must be performed in another manner. No, due to potential for contamination from human contact.
LB (Luria Bertani) Agar A subtype of nutrient agar, this is the general medium for microbiology studies and may be used for routine cultivation of not particularly fastidious microorganisms. Also, does not preferentially grow one kind of bacteria over another. Yes.
MacConkey Agar This is an agar upon which only Gram-negative bacteria can grow. What is more is that E.coli will grow into red colonies, as there is a pH indicator present. It should be mentioned that MacConkey agar powder comes in two versions: one with the sugar lactose in it, and one without any added sugars. Since E.coli ferments sugars to acids (thus the red color), one can add one of the many different kinds of sugars to this sugar-free MacConkey agar and see if red colonies develop. If you get red colonies, you know the E.coli strain you are using can use that sugar. No, due to selectivity.
Miller's LB Agar This common variation of LB agar appears to have the same components as LB, just in different proportions. Yes, but sticking with the generic formula is recommended.
Neomycin Agar Contains the antibiotic neomycin, which found in many medications such as creams, ointments and eyedrops. Neomycin was discovered in 1949 by the microbiologist Selman Waksman, and it is produced naturally by the bacterium Streptomyces fradiae. Moreover, Neomycin has a broad spectrum of effects, killing both gram-positive and gram negative bacteria. It is relatively toxic to humans, and some people have allergic reactions to it. Often, Neomycin agar is used for culturing organisms anaerobically. Neomycin stops the growth of gram-negative bacilli and staphylcocci, allowing Streptococcus species to grow more abundantly. No, due to safety concerns.
Non-nutrient Agar Usually not suitable for growing bacteria. However, may be used for growing other microorganisms. No.
Nutrient Agar Will grow the largest number of different types of microbes - fungi and bacteria. Yet, not all bacteria can grow on these. Some find it too rich, and others find it deficient. The nutrient in this is beef broth, and some extracts from yeast. Yes, because it does not selectively grow pathogenic bacteria.
Sabouraud Agar Used for fungi and has a low pH that will kill most bacteria. It contains gentamicin, which is a aminoglycoside antibiotic. Gentamicin can also treat many different types of bacterial infections, particularly Gram-negative infection. No, due to safety concerns.
Thayer-Martin Agar Chocolate agar designed to isolate Neisseria gonorrhoeae, also known as "gonococcus," which is a species of Gram-negative bacterium responsible for the disease gonorrhoea. No, due to potential for contamination from human contact.
Tryptic Soy Agar A basic medium used for culturing many kinds of microorganisms. Tryptic soy agar is mainly used as an initial growth medium for the purposes of: observing colony morphology, developing a pure culture, achieving sufficient growth for further biochemical testing, and culture storage. No, due to selectivity.
XLD Agar Xylose lysine deoxycholate agar. It is used for the culture of stool samples, and contains two indicators. It is formulated to inhibit Gram-positive bacteria, while the growth of Gram-negative bacilli is encouraged. The colonies of lactose fermenters appear yellow. No, due to selectivity.
Preparing Bottled Agar and Plates(5)
Pre-experiment: Keep sterile Petri dishes closed until ready to pour agar into them. Air-borne contaminants can easily invade an open Petri dish.
Although pre-poured agar plates are available, one can make agar plates from tablet, powdered, or bottled agar by following a few simple instructions. Agar kits usually come with detailed instructions on how to prepare plates, and below are sample procedures for reference. When in doubt, be sure to clearly read the instructions and ask for help if needed (either consult a teacher or call the technical help line of the agar kit supplier).
Preparing Tablet or Powdered Agar:
The formulation for LB (Luria Bertani) agar is: 9.1 g/L tryptone, 4.6 g/L yeast extract, 4.6 g/L NaCl, and 13.7 g/L agar. If using tablets, dissolve 10 tablets per 500 ml of water. For agar powders, dissolve by microwaving, 6.9 g of agar in 500 ml of water. 500 ml of agar will pour ~ 25 large Petri dishes (100 mm diameter) or 50 small Petri dishes (60 mm diameter).
Preparing Bottled Agar:
Loosen the bottle cap, but do not remove the cap while heating.
Warm the agar bottle in a hot water bath or in the microwave until it becomes liquid.
After opening the cap, pass the neck of the agar bottle through a flame to sterilize it. Do not lose the cap!
While pouring the agar, open the Petri dish lid as little as possible, hold it at an angle, and make sure the lid is kept directly over the Petri dish.
Pour enough melted agar into each sterile plastic Petri dish to cover 1/8" of the bottom. Cover the lid of the Petri dish immediately.
Place agar plates on a counter top to cool and set. Agar medium will set like stiff gelatin at room temperature.
Pass the neck of the agar bottle through flame again before applying the cap.
Preparing Pre-Poured Plates: If plates have been refrigerated, set them out and allow them to warm to room temperature.
Storage: Stack agar plates upside down in the refrigerator. Do Not Freeze! The purpose of placing the plates upside down is to prevent condensation from dripping down onto the agar surface which could then facilitate movement of organisms between colonies.
Please see http://www.umsl.edu/~microbes/pdf/tipsforplates.pdf for additional tips.
Additional Safety Considerations(6)
When stirring the broth solution, one should take special note in beginning the stir scale at a low setting and adding more speed from there.
When heating the broth, make sure to cover the flask in such a manner that will not lend itself to boiling over, but to avoid spillage.
When pouring the broth, make sure to fill the Petri dish without burning oneself. In addition it is important in this process to make sure that the Petri dish is covered immediately to allow the substance to cool proportionately.
Once the Petri dishes have been exposed or inoculated, students should not re-open them.
Incubation(7)
Place each Petri dish inside a zip lock bag to prevent drying out and to control odors. Turn the plates upside down and put them in a warm place. For many microorganisms, the ideal temperature for incubation is 32°C or 90°F. Bacterial growth should start to become visible in 2-3 days.
For those growing bacteria at home (for example, investigating bacteria growth at various places around the house), you may use a homemade "light bulb incubator" in place of a laboratory incubator. This page describes how to construct a "light bulb incubator:" http://www.umsl.edu/~microbes/pdf/Incubator.pdf
Disposal(8)
Once the Petri dishes have been taped shut, they should not be opened again. All microorganisms grown during the experiment should be killed before discarding. The best way to dispose of bacterial cultures is to pressure sterilize them in a heat stable biohazard bag. If autoclaves or pressure cookers are not available or large enough to make this convenient, an alternative is to bleach the plates. Saturate the plates with a 20% or "1 in 5" household bleach solution (in other words, 1 part bleach and 4 parts water). Let them sit and soak overnight in the bleach solution before disposing of them. Please note that the bleach solution is corrosive and needs to be thoroughly removed afterwards. In addition, the plates can be incinerated if access to an incinerator is available.
References
Dorland's Medical Dictionary: http://www.merckmedicus.com/pp/us/hcp/thcp_dorlands_content.jsp?pg=/ppdocs/us/common/dorlands/dorland/dmd-c-071.htm
Iridis Encyclopedia: http://www.iridis.com/glivar/Agar_plate
University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston: http://medic.med.uth.tmc.edu/path/MEDIA.HTM
Endnotes
(1) "Agar plate." Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agar_plate, accessed January 14, 2005.
(2) "Microbiology." MadSci Network. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar98/888937612.Mi.r.html, accessed January 25, 2005.
(3) "Agars." Difco & BBL Manual. http://www.bd.com/industrial/difco/difco_bbl_manual_sample.pdf, accessed January 14, 2005.
(4) This is the catalog number for nutrient agar. Please follow the item description at the bottom, next to the catalog number, and not the picture caption, which says non-nutrient agar.
(5) "Agar Bottles - Preparation & Equipment Use." Science Stuff, Inc. http://www.sciencestuff.com/playground/agar_bottle.shtml, accessed January 14, 2005.
(6) Mott, et al. "Artificial Environments for Growing Bacteria." WW Bio Institute. http://www.woodrow.org, (www.woodrow.org/teachers/esi/2002/Biology/Projects/lab_skills/ls5/), accessed January 14, 2005.
(7) "Agar Bottles - Preparation & Equipment Use." Science Stuff, Inc. http://www.sciencestuff.com/playground/agar_bottle.shtml, accessed January 14, 2005.
(8) Leung, Beatrice. Science Buddies Advisor, email correspondence 1/10/05.
Credits
Shijun Liu, Science Buddies
Laurie Usinger, Bio-Rad Laboratories
Does anyone know Seedpicker_Tx? I would be interested in knowing if he/she still uses the gelatin mud balls for seeds.
I know Seedpicker and she is very active--dmail her.
Equilibrium--thank you ever so much!
Debbie
beaker-
I haven't tried this method, since my original post, ...I guess I forgot all about it!
Everyone talking about it, sure has me ready to do it, again, as soon as the heat lets up, and the greenhouse is wrapped up, again.
I do remember it worked really well, but that I tried it late, and then it was suddenly Spring, and got busy with other things.
The following season, I got a cloner, and got really distracted with that...I forgot all about the gelatin.
I'll be sure to try it again this season.
-T
I tried the micropropagation method... using gelatin... with no success... (this was a few years ago). I got a lot of mold, even though everything was sterilized. Probably wasn't the same procedure though.
Donna
Seed, do you have success with your cloner? what do you propagate?
thank you
Yes, but not enough to justify the expense. Coir is much cheaper, and much more reliable.
-T
I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if I am being redundant, but I did locate these sites on google:
http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/science_fair_projects/50/625/4611fe1a62e1961d454c65c351aeabdd.html
http://esmdeo.arc.nasa.gov/hyperg/t_classroom.html
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