((reprinted from "The Truth About Garden Remedies" credited above)))
from the chapter "Ammonia, a quick and easy way to misaply fertilizer"
"Ammonia is composed, primarily, of nitrogen. Nitrogen is good for plants if it is offered at the appropriate dose. Those who recommend using ammonia as a fertilizer believe this chemical can deliver nitrogen in a way that will help your plants to grow.
...Homemade-fertilizer suggestions on the Web or in gardeners' how to books recommend applying various quantities of ammonia to your garden or houseplant.
...The problem, you see, is that the ammonia you buy in the store is actually a gas (the ammonia itself) dissolved in a liquid (water). This solution may contain anywhere from 3 to 10 percent ammonia. If you don't know the concentration of ammonia the gardener guru used, then you are flying blind and likely to over or under fertilize your plants, perhaps adding over three times more nitrogen than the author of the recipe did!
But over-application of fertilizer is actually just the beginning of the problems with ammonia. We haven't even looked at the chemistry of ammonia itself.
Household ammonia, created and formulated to clean floors, is made of a type of nitrogen that can be quite toxic to plants. Again, ammonia is a gas dissolved in water. After it dissolves, the gas combines with the water to form something called aqeous ammonia and something else called ammonium and hydroxide ions. Ammonium ions are useful as a fertilizer, but aqeous ammonia is toxic to seedlings at concentrations as low as 3.5 parts per million (Benett and Adams 1970). The amount of aqeous ammonia that will be in your fertilizer solution is highly dependent on th pH of the water you are mixing your household ammonia with. If the pH of that water is over 7 then watch out! You are going to be releasing all kinds of aqeous ammonia. ... What's that? You don't know the pH of your water or soil? Then you shouldn't even remotely consider using ammonia."
Beer Fertilizer - revisited
((reprinted from "The Truth About Garden Remedies" credited above)))
"Homemade fertilizers based on ammonia are not a good idea if you don't know what you're doing, and they're not a great idea even if you do know what you're doing. They are not that much cheaper than commercial fertilizers, and they have the potential to seriously damage your plants if used incorrectly."
((reprinted from "The Truth About Garden Remedies" credited above)))
from the section on Epsom salts:
" Epsom salts are sold in garden centers as a classic concoction to add to many fertilizer homebrews, but few people really know what Epsom salts are. Are you dying to know the answer? Okay, here it is. Epsom salts are a simple salt composed of two nutrients, magnesium and sulfur, as can easily be discerned by the chemical formula- MgSO4.
... Epsom salts contain two elements critical to plant growth, magnesium and sulfur. Proponents of this classic concoction adhere to the theory that plants are often deficient in these two elements.
... Most planting media contain sufficient magnesium for normal growth, though, and adding Epsom salts is unnecessary in most situations.
Where magnesium is deficient, the soil is likely to be acidic. In these conditions it is more appropriate to add dolomitic lime rather than Epsom salts because dolomitic lime will increase pH as well as add magnesium."
That covers the first three ingredients of the beer fertilizer. The next four are: water, molasses, commercial fertilizer and vitamin B-12.
Water is obviously inert.
Molasses is interesting, I have found several studies which talk about the many elements in molasses, some of which may help plant growth. I haven't found any studies which concretely show that molasses will have beneficial attributes for plant health or development. It seems harmless at worst. It could be beneficial when added to a good fertilizer.
Fertilizer itself, added to a homemade fertilizer, seems redundant. I suspect most or all of the benefits people have had using the beer formula (aside from the possible over-dose of nitrogen from the ammonia) came from the addition of store-bought fertilizer.
Vitamin B-12 is not related to plant growth, I believe the person who gave this formula probably meant vitamin B-1, Thiamin, which has had some historic suggestion as a plant growth regulator, but current studies don't support this.
This message was edited May 4, 2008 7:44 PM
Mark...that IS really interesting! Sounds like some of us have dodged a bullet - and others have been very lucky!!! I have to admit that everytime I start to use the beer fert. (for lack of a better label) something nags at me about 'caution' and I may use it once or twice and then i put it away again. Looking forward to any more information... HEY...I will just buy the book.
Completely (but not really) OT...but I did get a very nasty email from David Elliott in which, among other things, he told me he is back on DG, using computers not in his home and under another name. Poor fellow is terrified to post for fear of getting caught.
Mark would the sulfer in the epsom salt be strong enough to prevent rot in drying cuttings?
Thanks
Mark,
Thank you so much for the information, I’ll try to get the book.
Carol,
I’m very sorry that he keeps bothering you. =(
Perhaps DG administration could check the name in the card that pays for the subscription? Just an idea to try to prevent this things to keep happening.
First off, please don't anyone who uses the beer formula be offended. I'm not trying to disparage you, and I don't "hate" the beer formula. I don't only endorse the MSU fertilizer either- it is a great fertilizer, but so is Dynagrow, Schultz, Greenall- there are lots of good ones. Even cheap ones like Miraclegro can be effective if used properly (at less of a concentration than recommended- I think it's too strong and has to many salts).
I can see why the beer fertilizer would look good in certain circumstances. If you hadn't fertilized before at all (or fertilized too little) and then started using it, you might see impressively large leaves and lots of growth, depending on what ratio of nitrogen you ended up with from the ammonia (everyone would end up with a different ratio, depending on the pH of their water and the concentration of the ammonia). There are drawbacks to over-fertilizing with nitrogen, though: lots of soft new growth at the same time is more susceptible to insect and fungal attack. Plants with an excess of nitrogen will develop HUGE dark leaves, and grow vigorously, but will produce few if any flowers and the flowers, due to an increased metabolism, will not last as long as normal. Plants overall would be more impressive visually, but weaker and less able to tolerate any change in environment or stress.
"Hayu", I'm not sure if the level of sulfur would be high enough- but maybe. I didn't research that point. Why don't you check into that and report back to us? I'd be interested in hearing about that point!
RE: fake user names, I'm afraid that if someone uses an off-site computer (not their usual IP address) there is no easy way for DG admin to match them to previous, banned members and kick them out, so we will probably have to put up with a certain amount of disruption from previous members who want to come back here and make some sort of a point.
They are easy enough to spot, I think.
maybe the beer portion of the fertilizer is for us to drink?
yuk yuk yuk
Definitely, it is!
If you still want to incorporate the beer into your fertilizing regimen:
Drink 1 oz of beer per 10 lbs of body weight during each period of plant fertilization. Repeat as necessary.
Thanks for the info Mark- it's very interesting. I have been using the beer fertilizer and was alternating it with the MSU so I can't credit the new growth to either one. The experiment mentioned in your excerpts certainly opens my eyes though- I'll be using the MSU only from now on. Thanks! ^_^
I think this thread needs a bump. There is a lot of good info posted/given here.
Mike
I tried the beer fertilizer when it was posted on an Epiphyte forum I was on for a bit.
To be fair to it, I tried it not just on Hoya but on other types of plants too, bot epiphytic and potted.
I didn't see any great results with it. I think a standard fertilizer like Peters 10-10-10 or Miracle Gro performs way better than the beer formula
Bump...
Mike,
Just out of curiosity, why is this thread getting bumped every few days? Not that I mind...just wondering if there is a specific reason. If it's something that you are going to keep bumping on a weekly basis to make sure it stays on the first page, maybe ask one of the administrators to put it on a sticky?
Gabi
Hi Gabi,
Sorry, I didn't mean to bump this thread again. Oops... that's what I get for surfing Dave's at work! (:o) I was reading another thread, but must have closed it and reopened this fert thread again. I had to take a phone call (and actually work - gasp!) and was away from Dave's for quite a while. This thread can die a quiet death now. (:o)
Mike
Not a problem at all. I was just curious if there was some reason for wanting to keep bumping it...no need to apologize! We all have our "moments".
I think most of us surf DG at work....can you believe we have to work while there is hoya forum surfing to do???
:)
Gabi
It sure would be great if Mark's research info on the Beer Fertilizer could be in a sticky!
Sorry for being skeptical...but I don't see the stickies being used alot...no matter how easy we try to make the information!!!
Maybe we should have a Stickey for links to different information in threads?
I love the information in the stickies and go back to them time and time again because my brain freezes a lot of times and I forget stuff. For a long time I was printing out information I found interesting and informative, putting it in my file box. I am usually a very organized person but my file box ended up so full, pages of papers began piling up on top of the box. I would alphabetize everything for awhile ... then got lazy and now everything is so mixed up it would take hours to go through it to try to find exactly I was looking for, LOL. I know not all forums have stickies but I do like having lots of good information right at my fingertips!
=^--^=
I don't see a big problem with bumping the thread if Mike hopes to see it updated...but, how about just 'TAGGING' it?
That's what the tags are for, right? (Ü)
what exactly is a 'stickie' ?
Dom...if you look at the top posts...they have the word 'stickey' or stickie...don't remember. That means they stay at the top and don't move. Admin reserves this for threads of general information so that newer folks have the advantage of not having to ask the same questions every couple of months because, of course, they have read the 'Stickies'.
I love the "Stickies" found at the top of the Hoya forum. There sure is lots of great information to refer back to time and again. I've seen "stickies" at the top of other forums too but not every forum has them.
all I use is two different kinds of fertilizer 10-10-10 for root and leaf development and then when it is time for the plants to produce blooms I switch to 15-52-15 and it works great for all plants I even made moonflowers bloom on six inch tall plants this winter just for fun and it bloomed from seeds in 64 days also did it with japanese morning glories and daturas it was fun will do it again this winter just to get some flowers in the house
the only use for beer is to drink it, I have been a garden indoor and out for over 25 years and the only beer in the house is for my husband on a saturday night when he watches a hockey game lol
coffee grinds are good in moderation and egg shell mostly for outdoor gardening
hoya plants need patients lots of it
Black Strap Molasses in Cattle Grade contains lots of goodness. The general uses I am aware of is one to two ounces per gallon of water for foliar feeding and four to six ounces per gallon to create a compost booster or early spring soil drench that is as good as any other purchased booster. Cattle Grade molasses can be purchased any place cattle feed is made. Some big box sporting goods stores carry it as an attraction for deer and bear. In most instances the cattle feed stores do not have it bottled for sale. One must take their own bottle or larger container. Cost average is about ten dollars a gallon.
This message was edited Sep 13, 2009 5:49 PM
MOLASSES COMPOSITION
UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION
Molasses & Liquid Feeds Division
P.O. Drawer 1207
Clewiston, Florida 33440
09/29/03
Typical Composition of
U. S. Sugar's Heavy Mill Run Cane Molasses
Brix, spindle 86.0 degrees
Weight/gallon 11.8-12.0 lbs
Nitrogen 1.01 %
Crude Protein 6.30 %
Total Sugars 48.3 %
Density (as fed) 11.8 lbs/gal
Dry Matter 76.5 %
Moisture 23.5 %
Ash 16.0 %
Organic Matter 62.5 %
Reducing Substances, as Dextrose 11.5 %
Sucrose 35.9 %
Fructose 5.6 %
Glucose 2.6 %
pH 4.9 - 5.4
Calcium 0.8 %
Phosphorus negligible
(not for use)
Potassium 4.2 %
Chloride 2.1%
Magnesium 0.27 %
Sulfur 0.78 %
Sodium 0.09 %
Copper 14 ppm
Iron 130 ppm
Manganese 5 ppm
Zinc 8 ppm
Cobalt negligible
Iodine negligible
Selenium negligible
Biotin 3 ppm
Folic Acid 0.04 ppm
Inositol 6000 ppm
Calcium Pantothenate 60 ppm
Pyridoxine 4 ppm
Riboflavin 2.5 ppm
Thiamine 1.8 ppm
Niacin 500 ppm
Choline 700 ppm
Back to Blackstrap Molasses
I purchase Alaska's fish oil and kelp or other equal product. When mixing to use this product I add the Black Strap Molasses. This is the only fertilizer I use both indoors and outside.
I use aerobic manure based fully finished compost teas both inside and outside. This aerobic tea calls for Black Strap Molasses in the making but if made properly the Bio-Herd has consumed it all. The living biology is foliar and drench applied. It creates all the natural NPK my soils and potting mediums need.
In more than fifty years of gardening I have never used a manufactured fertilizer any place on this property. I deal with sandy loam over limestone and clay. The PH averages 6.8.
My potted patio flowers are as pretty as any in our neighborhood. I use no purchased potting mediums but I do use elements found in some commercial potting mediums plus soil and compost.
As to the arguementive beer theories..................what a waste! Drink it and pass it to a bucket. Now you have a healthy clean product with twelve to fourteen percent nitrogen content. Water it down a bit and just toss it about the area or charge up your compost pile. There will be no odor unless you use to much. If you use to much add more browns.
perennials that are happy dont need anything annuals I feed regularly and also bulbs since if they feed enough no blooms for the next year I usually add well aged horse manure to my beds since the worms bring down into the soil and I dont have to do the work
You are right on. Our beds are under four or five inches of ground wood bark. We have replaced a few plants over the years but never added anything except for the blue berries that like a bit more acid fertilizer. We use a good low number organic for acid loving plants in this case. Other than that we don't do much work in the many flower and fruit beds we maintain.
I use lots of manures of all kinds into our huge compost piles. We move the compost about the property at the rate of about a ton or more a year. Very little that will rot leaves this property.
This picture shows a small part of two beds in the foreground. In the background is a property line just loaded with mulch. They have remained as you see the for at least thirty five years. That is the bed the blue berries thrive in for us. The shrubs are my neighbors. I just work off his property line shrub row.
I paid for these fertilizer recipes on line from an 80 year old man who had never used a commercial fertilizer in his life........i am loving them both on my yard and all my plants. I do use bone meal and blood meal on bulbs and perennials (what few I can grow in zone 9) I even have my friend and family using all these ingredients in these long time family recipes.
I vote whatever works for someone , use it as I love it. If you don't, don't use it..........but I can always count on high drama in some of our forums.
I use epsom salt on every plant I have in a pot and even some in the ground. Works every time to get the tied up magnesium back in the soil.
Really I see no high drama here. I see a lot of good information for consideration.
There are really only two choices backyard gardeners and smaller truck farms need to choose between: One line of fertilizers are man made. It is these chemicals that are not acceptable to me because they hurt or kill the biological players we in fact need to support. Some feel they should be labeled Biocides. All these are also non-biodegradeable. What goes on can only go downstream ending up in our sick bays and oceans making things worse all along the way. All back yards and smaller farms considered add up to a signifigant percentage source of the total poisons going downstream.
The second and only other choice is to choose and use organic degradeable products. When used properly they stay home and are consumed by the plants. These products support the soil biology and begin to improve the healthy living biology within the soil the moment they are placed in or on the soil. When the soil improves the plants growing in the soil also improve. Healthy plants in various ways are less stressed by pathegons and insects. I have gardened within this choice for more than fifty years. This is the arena from within major improvements will come as more and more growers seek technique and systems to manage and build healthy soil.
Anyone seriously interested will be invited to visit and chat in my backyard as much as they wish. The condition of our soil and growing plants speak for themselves. Our worms live on to very high counts each year. We don't charge for observation and coffee break chat. At 74 putting my hands on a shovel is another matter. Backyard and patio gardens are what we maintain.
All of this information is excellent!!!!!