Leaves are yellowing & veiny. Why?

I have several new plants that have yellowish & veiny leaves. I think that it might be too much fertilizer but I wanted to see if anyone had any other ideas.

I started fertilizing with a quarter strength petunia fertilizer recommended by the nursery where I purchased it. But I had forgotten that I also put a dry 5-3-3 fertilizer in the soil when I potted them up to the 8 ounce stryo cups. This worked really good last year, but I didn't start liquid fertilizer on them till much later.

Thanks for any help or suggestions.
Pam

Here's a picture:

Here's another picture.

And one more.

It's called chlorosis and it generally happens when the plant is low on iron. Low iron can be fixed in one of two ways...if your soil pH is low, then it means there's not enough iron in the soil so you should add some, but if your soil pH is high then even if there is iron there the plant can't absorb it, so you should try lowering the pH first, then if the plants don't get better, then you can add some supplemental iron.

Fertilizer burn will often show up as the leaf edges turning brown (or the entire leaves if it's bad enough) If you just recently put the 2nd dose of fertilizer in, the burn might not have showed up yet and you might be able to stop it from happening by giving the plants a good flush with water. If it's been a while since you added the 2nd dose then they're probably not going to have problems.

I think ecrane is right on all counts, Prism. That looks like iron chlorosis from the pics, but simply adding chelated iron to the soil may not fix it, depending on the soil pH. For some reason, I am blessed with high pH (like, 8.9!)in an area known to have problems with soils being "too acidic", so I know it well!! Whatever...you may be able to get a temporary fix by spraying the leaves with a chelated iron spray, but if your problem truly lies in the soil pH, that's where you'll have to focus your long term solution. Otherwise the leaves will just get yellow again because the plant can't get to the available iron in the soil. There may be plenty of iron in your soil, but It's "locked up" by the pH...not available to the plant roots.

I've also seen plants chlorotic from over-watering. It happened often in Phoenix where folks were trying to keep plants going in too arid / hot of an environment for those particular plants ...

Thank you for the responses.

I guess I should have told you the soil is Pro Mix BX. I thought that it had neutral PH. Sorry I didn't think to tell you that earlier. I have never checked PH in my seedlings before & have not had a major problem like this before.

It was a couple of weeks ago that I put the liquid fert on, so I guess they will be okay as far as that goes. I've been starting seeds for several years now & have never had this problem this bad before. I tried to think of something I might have done that would be different. The fert was the main difference.

What product should I use for the iron deficiency? I had this problem last year but it was mainly with the Vinca.

Isn't it strange that just as many look great as look aweful? Maybe you can't see that because I tried to take pictures of the worst ones. They have all been treated the same.

Other than the fert, the main difference this year is the Pro Mix.

Thanks so much!
Pam

Even if your potting mix started out at neutral pH, if your water pH is higher than neutral, then it'll raise the pH of the soil. Before you do anything to add iron, you need to check the pH, if your pH is high then the plants can't absorb iron even if you add it, so you'd be wasting your time adding anything.

Okay. I'll check that.
One more thing I forgot to mention. Don't know if it matters, but I water them with 1 part hydrogen peroxide to 19 parts water.
Thanks!
Pam

I agree totally that your PH is too high and is blocking the iron. Just adding iron won't do it. The soiless mixes like the Promix generally start with a PH of about 6.2. If the PH on your water is a lot higher, than that will raise the PH.
To lower the PH really fast, go to the car parts store and buy a box of battery acid (sulfuric acid) and add a few drops to a gallon of water and water them with that solution. Do it every time that you have to water, and also add the sulfuric acid to the liquid fert. I use 1 T per gallon of solution that is run thru a siphon at a ratio of 1:16-so if you are using one gallon of straight water without a siohon, you would divide 1T by 16 and thats really the amt that you need-not sure if I said that where it was understandable, but I think it will come to a few drops/gallon. You should start to see a difference within a week or so. The sulfuric acid that you are buying is only 35% strength, and although if you splash it on your skin, it will burn, it doesn't even leave a mark/burn, but do be careful handling it. I know it sounds strange to do, but it is a very common practice with commercial growers-there is nothing that will bring the PH down as fast as sulfuric acid. I use it with vincas and pansies because they like a lower PH.

Petunias are heavy feeders and like to be fertilized every week. They are quick to show defiencies if not.

Good point, Pagancat, about the overwatering. Had a real problem with my citrus this summer---some were green as anything, some were getting really yellow. Turned out, the yellow ones measured "wet" when tested with a soil probe, but the green ones all tended to measure toward the "dry" end. All were on the same drip system. So just for S&G's, I put a 7" plastic saucer under an emmitter (off the plants)from each. The saucer from the yellow plant overflowed on one cycle, the green plant was only 1/2 full. Problem solved. I adjusted the flow-valves on the yellow plants to match (approximately) the flow on the green plants, and within a month, all the citrus were green. Not very scientific, but VERY instructional..

I've seen leaves turn yellow from overwatering, but the yellow with green veining in the middle is a sign of chlorosis. I've never seen an overwatered plant wih the green veins like that.

I hate to show my stupidity, but I've never checked PH. How do I do it? I thought I had a meter but I don't know where I put it.

Tigerlily, thanks for the tip on the battery acid. After I check the PH, I will get that done ASAP. It's so interesting the tricks growers know to cure problems.

The funny thing about it is, I have been starting plants from seed for about 5 or so years & I have never had this problem before. They must be messing with the water!

Have any of you used the Peters fertilizer, Jack's Classic for Petunias? It has a 20-6-22 ratio. It also has lots of nutrients, including several different kinds of iron. Shall I start feeding them again? Full strength, half, or quarter?

I was just so sure I had overfertilized that I quite fertilizing them at all till I found out what the problem was.

Thanks so much for all the info, everyone.
Pam

Another question. These pics are of the ones that look the worst. There are lots of them that look great. And many are already blooming. Whoo hoo!

My question is "Why are some beautiful & some are like these pics"? I have done everything the same. As you can see, some in the same trays look nice, & some look awful.

There are always little variables from plant to plant--I doubt if you're weighing out the water you give them or the fertilizer you give them to make sure each one gets exactly the same amount. Then you combine that with slightly different soil volume in the pots, slightly different root mass, maybe an inhomogenous bag of potting mix that results in the potting mix not being exactly the same for all of them, and a number of other possible variables, and you can wind up with some plants showing distress faster than others. But if you really do have very similar conditions between all of these, I suspect it's just a matter of time before your others become chlorotic as well, they just didn't get there quite as fast.

Prism-I would cut back all the petunias now too. All those runners that you have-cut them off, right near the base of the plant. You will have a thicker/fuller plant because of it, and you still have a few months before you can put them outside, so you probably can cut them back a few times.

I wouldn't even bother testing the PH, although if you want to, then take a few plants to a plant clinic where they do that (usually at a state univ) or call your agricultural extentsion agent and find out how.

Ouch! I have a hard time cutting things back. But, I CAN do it! I just pinched back my snapdragons.

Will they still have lots of blooms in May? My dream is to have those big baskets with the runners hanging down 2 feet from the basket. I thought starting them early enough I would be able to have them look like that by May.

I really didn't expect them to be blooming this early anyway. But now that they are, it's going to be harder to cut them back. But I want them to be thicker & fuller.

ecrane, if I'm going to add iron what shall I use?

Yes, the more that you cut back now, the more blooms that you will have in May. Keep in mind that everywhere that you pinch back now, you will get two branches (more branches, more blooms !! lol)

You don't want to add iron-just fertilize with the sulfuric acid added to the fert solution. You want to bring down the PH so that the iron that is in the fert can be made available to the plant. Right now the high PH is blocking the iron.

How many of the petunia plants that you have are affected? How many plants do you have total of the petunias, and how many are going yellow? Is it just a small percentage?

I have about 300 of the spreading petunias at this stage and probably 25-50% of them are going yellow. I don't see yellowing on the little babies, tho.

I'll cut them back tonight. Ouch! All my pretty blooms! I know it's for the best & I'll have more beauties later. What size should they be before I can put them in hanging baskets?
I won't be putting them in the greenhouse until the second week in March. I don't have room to pot them up yet anyway. Just wondering what size they should be.

I'll pick up the sulfuric acid today & get started.

Thanks so much!
Pam

Its hard to tell, looking from the first two pictures, but are they a bunch of seedlings in one container that haven't been transplanted yet? If so, they really need to get moved soon into larger containers. Pinching them back will help with the shock as well. You can put really small plants into hanging baskets and grow them out that way. These, that you have, definitely look large enough to go in a hanging basket. Are you putting 3 in each basket?

Don't forget to add fert to the solution! They will love you for it!!

They are potted up into 8 ounce stryro cups. I didn't know if I should pot them up again before putting them into the baskets. I hadn't decided whether to put 3 or 4 of them per basket. The varieties I have are Voyager, Ramblin', Opera Supreme, and Shock Wave.
I can't think of any others right now. Some of the varieties have a smaller flower but seem to be pretty floriferous. I choose these varieties because I didn't like how the Wave petunias don't have much at the top in the basket part. These varieties are supposed to flower at the base as well as along the stem.

I have a greenhouse but I don't want to put them in too soon. I planned on starting putting them in the 1st or 2nd week of March, after the time change. Are the days long enough in March so they will have enough sun light or do I still need supplemental lighting?

Does 3 petunias sound like enough per basket?
Also, I'm growing geraniums & plan to put them in baskets. Does 3 sound right for them?

Thank you so much for all your help.
You probably don't remember me, but you traded with me the first time I did a trade.

Pam

Agree, ecrane, but the citrus did have green veins. They just didn't "look" like typical chlorotic leaf veins look, so I bet watering was the problem (and a lot easier to check!). I lucked out. But I still wish there was an easy, reliable way to check pH in pots. The size of the soil sample Clemson requires for a reliable test would take all the soil in many of my pots, and most of it in some of them. Those little probes they sell that purport to measure pH, don't. I've found them fairly reliable for water content, but not even close on pH...(like a whole tick off, and that's a lot!). Have you found anything reliable that doesn't require a PhD in chemistry?

StonoRiver,
I'm glad you warned me about the meter. That's what I have that I was looking for. But if it's not accurate, I won't bother.
Thanks,
Pam

I think most of those little soil testers that you can purchase will do pH - it's probably no different than a piece of litmus paper.

Oh, okay, thanks. I appreciate that.
Pam

Prism, Has anybody mentioned that those petunia cuttings will root with bottom heat so don't toss them out.

Suzy

NOT my experience, Pagancat. In fact, litmus paper may be more accurate. How do you use it?

I'm not sure what pH measuring things pagancat is talking about, there are a couple different kinds.

Litmus paper is definitely going to be more accurate than the cheap pH devices you can buy that have a probe you stick in the soil. Real pH meters need to be calibrated in order to be accurate, and there's no way to calibrate those cheap devices, so it's very possible for them to be off by a pH unit or so, and in the world of pH that's a huge difference. Not to mention they're not actually measuring pH, they're measuring conductivity instead, and the level of salts in your soil can affect that measurement and give you a false reading even if the device by some miracle was calibrated properly.

But some of the soil test kits have a pH measuring part of the kit that relies on color changing chemicals rather than a probe that you stick in the soil--these do work the same way that litmus paper does and should be fairly accurate.

I am so glad I came across this thread. I've been having a problem with my loquat trees and some apple seedlings(for the grandkids) with drying /browning edges of the leaves. I had no clue what the cause was but after reading what ecrane said about overfertilizing, I do believe that may be the problem.
As for Prism's problem, I did come across a product made by ESPOMA called garden sulfer. They claim it is especially helpful for that yellowing problem (chlorosis). It may be a little safer to use than sulfuric acid and it comes in fine granular form. I haven't used it myself but intend on buying some.
Thanks ecrane for that valuable info,
Sal

This message was edited Feb 23, 2008 12:49 AM

When growing in small containers, you have to be really careful about how much pelleted (ground) sulfur you use. as it is very easy to add too much (not hard to do) and have too low a PH. Also, sulfur in this form take awhile to convert to sulfuric acid in the soil-maybe a month. By that time, the plants could be dead if the PH is off by too much, or not growing (if not dead)
That is why growers use sulfuric acid-changes the PH within days, and if you go to far in the opposite direction, its not by much and easy to change, whereas with the ground sulfur-once you have it in the ground/container-you have to add lime to fix it if you put too much in.

This sulfuric acid is only 35% so its not that strong. Like I said above, I have splashed some on my hands before and it wasn't a big deal. Wear gloves and handle carefully and its fine. I actually find that if I have a cut on my hand-the salts in the fert solution burns more than the acid!

I'll have to give it a try. Sounds easy enough.
Thanks, tigerlily

Do be a bit careful with the acid though--make sure you don't get it in your eyes, and also be careful it doesn't splash on your clothes. I went to school for chemistry, and I can't count the number of t-shirts that had holes in them from where little drops of acid splashed on them when I was working in the lab. You don't even notice it at the time, but then when you wash the clothes all of a sudden you have holes where the acid ate through them.

This must not be very strong acid then, because I have never seen a hole in any of my clothes, and I have been using it for about 4 yrs or more, and I tend to measure it out pretty fast now. I guess familiarity does breed contempt. I remember when I first started with it, I was scared to open the container! I thought it would start smoking if it touched my skin...lol
I am not saying dont be careful-you should, just don't be as scared as I was in the beginning.

No, I think you're using the same strength that we had in the lab. Of course there were lots of other acids that we used too besides sulfuric so I guess maybe it was one of the other ones that did it, I never did a side by side comparison!

lol I will go try it this week. Thats one of the good things to working in a grhouse-you never care about what happens to your clothes....except I do have a few sets of "bleach" clothes for bleaching days.

Or maybe I just had really cheap quality t-shirts...I was in grad school after all!

LOL, tigerlilly---I thought I was the only one in the world with "bleach clothing"! But I got 'em! "Screwing my courage to the sticking place...", I'm going to try sulfuric acid. Thanks for the pointers... In my day, boys took physics, girls took chemistry, so I took physics. Sure wish I had taken both...maybe I wouldn't be so afraid of Sulfuric acid now...

Isn't sulphuric acid what they clean pools with?

No there is another type of acid that cleans the grout, I have used that in my bathrooms before. If I remember correctly-that is scarier than sulfuric acid. I know I let some drip on the faucet and it stained it. I think its muriatic (sp?) acid-it smells bad.

When i bleach, I use 30 gallon garbage containers and I always get stuck doing the bleaching part and someone else alwasy gets the rinsing part. At the end of it, I am always soaking wet. Has anyone else noticed how silly/stupid you get after breathing bleach fumes? We are always bent over laughing at the end

Yes, that's probably muriatic acid (also known as hydrochloric acid in chemistry world) It does have a much stronger smell than sulfuric--maybe it was the culprit for the holes in my t-shirts, I used it quite a lot back then too.