My easier, better soil, no fuss, less work, composting

Thanks for the link to the pictures of your garden, it is absolutly beautiful. I garden in the same way as you~just pile on the clippings, leaves, etc. I've been "lasagna" gardening for a little more than a year now and love it. My garden has never looked better and the best part is less weeds. I also shread whatever paper there is to throw out and add that under the leaves/grass or whatever happens to be on top at the time. I still use a compost bin for my kitchen scraps but I have been rethinking that too.

I have a fenced veggie garden since we live in the country with lots of critters. I was thinking of using one half for summer and one half for the winter and then just throwing my scraps under mulch on the side I'm not using. yeah, I'm a lazy gardener. Could this be bad to do?

Thanks Pie, and yes that is exactly what we do.. I didn't do any winter veggies and we just cover all veggie scraps in our raised veggie beds while they are fallow. They compost in place and improve the soil condition.

Why do more work than you need to when the end result is better anyway??

:)

Susan

SGL,

Nice Thread!

If you research where to buy Milky Spore, will you post a link, for us? Like you, I've known about it forever, but this year is THE YEAR I'm going to do it!

I need to know if you do the whole property, or just the lawn? I also wondered if it kills Tobacco Hornworm larvae because I don't know if those have a white grub. It's a hard question to answer because it isn't a google search. LOL!

Suzy

One place to purchase Milky Spore is ARBICO ORGANICS. www.arbico-organics.com. On this specific item they also had the best pricing last spring when I re-innoculated my property. Here in the Northeast most Ace Hardware stores are limited garden centers that carry the product. That likely means they could all order it.

I like Arbico because they have real live staff that have been a help to me in other areas too.

I treat my whole property....good for up to fifteen years for the cost of one Mr. Green Thumbs visit. This will not stop fly ins but it will get the grubs that fly ins place in your soil.

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This message was edited Jan 7, 2008 10:03 AM

This message was edited Jan 7, 2008 10:09 AM

I believe it may have been Ruth Stoudt's book, "The No Work Garden Book" that contained her comment. "I just tramp down unwanted plant growth and cover it with more hay".
......."if it will rot the heavies simply remain mulch longer until they become compost following the rotting process".

I have lived at the same place for forty years. All of my flower beds and foundation plantings have been under a continous single ground rough wood
mulch four to six inches deep. All of my beds are a mix of traditional foundation plantings. Where I differ from most is that I mix in apples, blue berries, peaches, pears, gourds, grapes, goose berrys and sea berries of two types.

The birds bring me 99% of the weeds that appear. I have been known to use Round-up and a four inch paint roller to stop over run or over spray in spot application.

docgipe: I would worry that mulching that deep would smother the perennials, especially those (like peonies) that are sensitive to how deeply they are planted.

I have dozens of peonys and iris too that have gone the years under heavy ground wood bark. If it is of any concern I am unaware of any difficulty. When I said all beds that is the way it is. I am aware of nothing that ever failed because of the heavy ground wood mulch.

I have been told by many this can not be done. My plants seem to disagree.

Over those many years all have been raised and divided at least three or four times. Hundreds of mixed bulbs also call that home.

Any trouble I have that I am aware of comes with four feet and a bushy or cotton tail.

now that my beds are covered with leaves and other "stuff" i have been watering them so they decompose quicker--but now i wonder if anyone has a problem with rotting?

I don't think any reasonable amount of water will cause and problem with a leaf mulch. God knows your under soil can alway use the result of the rotting process. Those leaves have to rot to go into the following stages of decomposition leading to leaf mold, compost, humis, humic acid and finally something your soil can hold and the plants can use. Every step of the above is carried out by your bacteria, fungi and other living critters in your soil. I have added a foot or more of leaves to my beds and garden patch every year for over forty years.

i just love getting advice from someone with 40 years experience!!!!!!!!! someone from arizona said it can take years for things to decompose there due to the dryness!!

For the interest of all who would build the soil first or continued over many years.

The last five world record pumpkins now approaching 1700 lbs. have been grown on soil built up by the grower to very high levels of organic content, the use of organic fertilizers, mycorrhiza, humic acids, various plant meals, kelp meal, fish oils and trace minerals.

Anything will improve in size, measuable quality meat or plant parts and ability to resist problems in accordance with the quality of the soil. Fish that live in ponds that catch the filtered run off will likewise be bigger and better.

Now to CMA....yes you can go nuts and do bad things with to much good stuff but you really have to work at it to get into any serious trouble.

For anyone who hasn't seen this page before, it's another way of looking at Soulgardenlove's idea-

YARD WORK - AS VIEWED FROM HEAVEN
(overheard in a conversation between God and St. Francis):


God: Francis, you know all about gardens and nature; what in the World
is going on down there in the U.S. ? What happened to the dandelions,
violets, thistles and the stuff I started eons ago?

I had a perfect no-maintenance garden plan. Those plants grow In any
type of soil, withstand drought, and multiply with abandon. The nectar from the
long-lasting blossoms attracts butterflies, honeybees, and flocks of
songbirds. I expected to see a vast garden of color by now. All I see are patches of
green.

St. Francis: It's the tribes that settled there, Lord. They are called
the 'Suburbanites'. They started calling your flowers "weeds" and went to
great lengths to kill them and replace them with grass.

God: Grass? But it is so boring, it's not colorful. It doesn't
attract butterflies, bees or birds, only grubs and sod worms. It's
temperamental with temperatures. Do these Suburbanites really want grass
growing there?

St. Francis: Apparently not, Lord. As soon as it has grown a
Little, they cut it...sometimes two times a week.

God: They cut it? Do they bale it like hay?

St. Francis: Not exactly, Lord. Most of them rake it up and put it in
bags.

God: They bag it? Why? Is it a cash crop? Do they sell it?

St. Francis: No sir, just the opposite. They pay to throw it away.

God: Now let me get this straight...they fertilize it to make it grow
and when it does grow, they cut it off and pay to throw it away?

St. Francis: Yes, sir.

God: These Suburbanites must be relieved in the summer when we cut back
on the rain and turn up the heat. That surely slows the growth and saves
them a lot of work.

St. Francis: You aren't going to believe this Lord, but when the grass
stops growing so fast, they drag out hoses and pay more money to water it so
they can continue to mow it and pay to get rid of it.

God: What nonsense! At least they kept some of the trees.
That was a sheer stroke of genius, if I do say so myself.
The trees grow leaves in the spring to provide beauty and shade in the
summer. In the autumn they fall to the ground and form a natural blanket
to keep the moisture in the soil and protect the trees and bushes. Plus, as they
rot, the leaves become compost to enhance the soil. It's a natural circle of
life.

St. Francis: You'd better sit down, Lord. As soon as the leaves fall,
the Suburbanites rake them into great piles and pay to have them hauled
away.

God: No way! What do they do to protect the shrubs and tree roots in the
winter to keep the soil moist and loose?

St Francis: After throwing the leaves away, they go out and buy
something called mulch. They haul it home and spread it around in place of the
leaves.

God: And where do they get this mulch?

St. Francis: They cut down trees and grind them up to make mulch.

God: Enough! I don't want to think about this anymore.
Saint Catherine, you're in charge of the arts. What movie have you
scheduled for us tonight?

St. Catherine: "Dumb and Dumber," Lord. It's a really stupid movie
about...

God: Never mind--I think I just heard the whole story from Saint
Francis!

Suzy Thanks! I too thought you were supposed to treat the whole property with milky spore. I didn't think those grubs just liked grassy areas... have you ever dug in a bed and found them? I think I have.

Doc, Thanks for the link.. I need to just do it already.

I also do something everyone that knows anything about soil and gardening says not too... I spread fresh horse manure over planted beds. I don't try to get it right up on the plant, but I put it all over where there is no plant. I've also planted in newly created beds that had high amounts of recently added horse manure/shavings and I've never had burn, but quite a great result.. Someone else would do the same thing and burn their garden up.. Maybe the stuff I get is low burn! :)

Linda, decomposition is a nice word for rotting. Same thing.. However, I think rotting denotes a smell.. and I've never had a bad smell only a great earthy one :) (Except for the time I put down already rotted, anaerobic beer grain- ewww!!)

I know it's hard to believe you don't have to do anything like water, and you can if you want to, but seriously..if you lay them down and walk away, it will work. As far as places where decomp takes longer, I'd venture to guess the native plants of that area require less from the soil.. Not that I grow just GA natives here.. but just a thought about how things work. :) But being that your in TX.. you all are getting plenty of rain, right?? :)

I tried to find some of Ruth Stoudt's books, and they are out of print and the sellers want the big bucks for them!

Maypop I've read that before and it's very timely :) Yesterday was the perfect day to go leaf hunting..the weather was great.. and I got two truckloads full of bagged leaves. As I was taking them off the curb, I was visually assessing the owners property and thinking of where they could use them if they knew better and where I'd plant a garden!! :) It really is like getting free bags of mulch that feed your soil.. My kids were with me and my 4 year old asked me all these questions.. Mommy.. why do you want them? Then why don't they want them then?.. They just don't hon. and they bagged them for me :)

I'm glad to see this thread has generated as much interest.. I just wanted to save those of you that want to be saved from doing more work then necessary :)

Susan

This type of gardening as well as any other method of soil building requires a bit of common sense. There seems to be a lot of knee jerking, quick changes and dissapointment when a fix is not seen in about two weeks.

I'm an old timer who believes in the basics including manures, compost, organic fertilizer like 4-2-4 and leaves with modest organic other treatments as deemed a specific need. I always suggest remineralization for at least two years with the use of humic acids and a cover crop in the fall. In the spring use mycorrhizae when planting. This requires tilling fall and spring but it builds a stronger healthier soil faster. Soil testing is most important to measure organic content and PH. We are shooting for an organic content from 5% to 10% or more and a PH of 5.6 - 7.0. for average garden plants. The other factors are of little value to organic improvement. They will improve also but generally we do nothing about them unless there is a specific one garden imballance created by very unusual circumstances.

My rationality includes the fact that we do in fact take up to 1500 pounds of produce produced by plants on 700 - 1000 sq. ft. patches. We have no way to return our own manure within the law therefor my consistant belief that we need manures as a part of our gardening ballance including its presence in the compost process. Yes this costs some bucks. Give that 1500 lbs of produce a value of a dollar a pound or even fifty cents a pound. Would it not make sense to return a couple hundred bucks of goodness for that production. After all that same produce would cost you three or four times more at the green grocers and not have near the real value of you good garden produce. My average return to my garden in dollars and cents is about three to four hundred bucks per each 1000 sq. ft. of surface soil. That includes cost of delivery and some help to apply the products and heavy work assistance.

When anyone follows these practices the excellent healthy soil will be achieved faster. Other methods like permanent mulch may follow and actually work better because of the better soil under the mulch.

How long does it take? I have helped many do this. The answer is about four years. More or less depending on the condition of the soil when begining a serious desire to improve.

I like open soil to catch the sun and bring it up to fifty degrees faster than it will warm up under mulch. Mulch in my case gets applied after the soil warms up to fifty degrees. The biology of the soil gets a little better start and starts really expanding from fifty degrees up. Please understand I am looking for the ultimate growing conditions as a competitive giant garden produce items grower. The difference is about three weeks of good growing days most years.

I have been able to make a post like this at DG without major angry response. There seems to be a more open minded associate group here. This makes it fun. This enables you to see and consider different ways to view your soils basic needs.

I am very much aware that a person with acres and acres can not do all of the things that we with a 1000 sq. ft of garden can get done. I also am aware of many smaller farms that are in fact doing most of what I preach because my message is as old as time itself. There are no tricks, magic in a bag or new principles.

Your open positive criticism is always welcome.

docgipe,

Do you have any pictures from your garden? I am starting a garden this year and am reading as much as possible.

OT: If anyone is interested, there are VERY EARLY plans in the works for a Dave's Garden Party sometime in 2009. Right now they are just asking if you'd be interested in attending if the location and price was right for you, to get an idea if they should continue. Here's the thread: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/802625/#new

Yes Doc, do you upload pics of your garden ever?? I'd love to see your work too!

:)

Susan

Strange as this may seem to you I never thought I was doing anything worthy of mention or photographic record until I became a competitive grower several years ago. I grew up with gardening of the type I speak as a very common occurance in South Eastern Pa. Even there I was just a good gardener down the road with lots of good neighbors gardening to emulate.

Yes I have hundreds of shots of the Pumpkin Patch. It was so amazing to me and others to see a single plant grow a monster pumpkin. I have a few shots in around and about the pumpkin patch of other interesting things I grow.

I know how to post here. Is this what you would like to see? I'm so new here I know of no other way. If there is another way I need someone to take me by the hand and lead me there. As another option I posted nearly a daily record of my first year pumpkin grow on another site. That may still be a possible link.

In my humblest words: "now I need a little help and further feel for what you would like to see".

This is my water tower delivering gravity fed water to the pumpkin patch's under ground T-Tape watering system. Around the edges you may be able to see Asian Pears, a butterfly garden an old apple tree and such. The plant showing is actually two one growing North and one growing South. The one growing to your left from center produced my first really nice 710 lb. pumpkin. The black plastic wind guard is still in place in this photo.

Not to long later this is what the patch looked like. You may be able to see the huge compost pile of to the far right in this pix. By this time all vines are underground and terminated while the plant is producing the first female blooms. We permit only one of three germinated to run for the gold. Hee Hee. It is a real craps shoot. Big boys grow four or five in hopes of finishing one.
I only have space for two if I am very carefull. This patch is 25' X 45' aprox.

They started in my ice cream pots about April 28 in side my house. They germinate and emerge in about four days. Four days more and they are ready to be put in a temporary greenhouse in the garden. From about May fifth to our last frost about May 20th. they need the temporary green house.

These plants are just about ready to go out or just six days from being seed planted in those pots.

Here is one of my baby plants with a shop light heater turned on for a projected cold night. The comforters and blankets would have been over the top. Shown this way makes a better shot. There is a low temperature alarm that sounds off right beside my bed in the house.

This is the five gallon edition of my early aerobic finished compost tea production. I now make forty gallons and treat the whole property a little each time which is at least once a month.

LET NO SUN, OR HAIL touch the skin of your baby. It must remain soft and flexible to grow like thirty to fifty pounds a day. It definately is the end if a hail storm cuts it all up.

HONEST it was a big sucker that weighed 710 lbs. by estimated weight and then she died right there where you see her. We got the valued seed and composted her last and final remains.

wow!! 30-50 pounds a day!!!! you must almost be able to see it grow!

The other one made 450 -500 lbs, got officially weighed. A young lady headed for art school designed a carving and turned her into a night pumpkin.

This is the short edition of a years gardening work growing a giant pumpkin.

The end.

Hope you enjoyed the trip.

Docgipe

it must be sad to have "her" go!! i would think you would get attached to something like that--i also imagine there is a fear of the stem somehow getting broken --

Yep there is loss from a gazillion uninvited events that can and do show up. You mentioned stem problems. Here was one we doctored and still brought in a nice finished pumpkin.

Now thats a big pumpkin!

Big Pumpkin is all relative to whom! The world record established in RI last year was just seventeen pounds short of 1700 pounds.

You bet I am proud of my big pumpkins but there are many things for me to learn if I ever can join the boys at the head of the class. I'm just happy I can grow any 'ole giant at my age and health conditions considered.

Only read the first post. THANK YOU for this new insight. Did you read a specific BOOK on lasagna gardening or just looked it up on Dave's?

If you read the thread top to bottom you will get a pretty good answer to your question. Susan has said it all.

My apologies.

Indeed no apology needed.......We are all likely to do just as you have done. That seems to be normal for most of us.

Thanks for the trip, Doc.
Appreciate your time & effort, and sharing it with us!

WOW Doc! Your serious!! :) .... Gee, I'll think of you with your temperature alarm by your bedside the next time someone tries to make me feel like I put too much effort into my garden. Must be hard work going through all that ice cream to get those germination containers! :)

Your pumpkins are amazing and huge! I saw a CBS Sunday morning segment on the pumpkin competition and I know it is fierce and those guys are serious! Interesting that most of the growers I saw were men..HMM??? Why is that and what does that mean?? Ha.. the pumpkins I've grown have never reached more than say maybe..10 pounds max! :) Oh well.. gotta start somewhere and I don't know if I could be convinced to rig a temperature alarm warning system to my bedside.. Maybe thats why women don't do it..once the diapers and nighttime feedings are over, never unnecessarily wake me up at night again. I always wonder if any collapse on their own weight when they are being lifted?? You must have a system to lift too?? We LOVE Halloween and we carve our pumpkins here the night of :)

Tir, yes I have read it and it's a very easy and simple read.. if you don't have it, i do think you could very easily get the gist by hanging out here :) This thread has grown fast, but there might be some other info that would be good for you to know if you had a chance to read it. If not jsut ask and I will help in any way I can :)

Good luck :)

Doc.. I'd love to know more about your compost tea set up.. I made alfalfa tea once and I strained it through women's hosiery and it still clogged my sprayer.. it was a pain.. Got a better system?? Looks like you do.. I'm trying to figure it out from the picture.

The secret to living with the difficulties of delivering tea to the patch is solved one of two ways. The contractor rent-all centers can rebuild your two gallon sprayer wand with a 35% nozzle. That means it will pass 35% solids as used to place curing materials on concrete. The other and easier method is to make forty gallon baches, in a plastic drum, throw in a simple inexpensive sump pump, hitch up a garden hose and go scientific by placing thumb over the other open end of the hose. The least expensive sump pump will deliver forty gallons to the patch in seventeen minutes. The left overs can go all over your other beds, compost piles and grass areas. I have done it both ways but much prefer the sump pump route. Yet if you want to go for under leaf application to establish living biology as a pathegon prevent practice the wand does that job best.

I agree with you that straining even down to sprinkling can is a hoot. Upgrade to handle the slurry if you can.

Shoot I missed the good part. To see one of the best presentations on aerobic compost tea go to the site of North Country Organics and find the Bobolator brewer data. I have the Biti Bobolator which is no longer available but all of the data on the larger unit is all the same just a bit larger. This is the only site I know of that has tested and posted the biological content of the compost tea made from their tea quality compost.