My easier, better soil, no fuss, less work, composting

I think you should distinguish between roto tilling and plowing, the latter is more likely to cause compaction issues than a rototiller in a home garden. I use both methods, since I would like these new beds sometime this year. Ruth Stout's method of straw bale appeals to me, but the neighbor's would probably show up on the front porch with guns. We live on a corner lot with all the "fun" that entails. I use lasanga in small areas and am actually building a bigger rose bed with one, but it won't be ready until spring. Btw, I use a Horse Troybilt, weighing in at about 800lbs. We're on our 2nd one and have been gardening organically off and on for over 25 years in VA red clay, which I have little of anymore. I can go down about 4 ft and still get black loam. Long term investment in time and energy and well worth every moment. :)

Doccat: The techniques for managing red clay are described in my No-Dig Article. The article is ready to go except for linking in this thread. I am not changing the title. I understand No Dig to mean 'No Digging'
digging soil destroys its integrity and all of the microbial life within the rhizosphere, whether by plow or by rototiller or by razorback shovel.

Somepeople feel better if they turn the soil upside down and destroy all the life within it. That doesn't make it better for the soil or for the earth.

Sorry, gloria, I disagree. Soil is a living thing and tougher than that to kill.

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/806570/

Time to learn- Doccat. Soil is a rare commodity that is disappearing from the face of the earth.

I'm intrested in the no-till gardening concept. Also learning more about what the title suggest.

No-till, No-dig gardening is a permaculture concept advocated in Australia and 3d world countries facing a crisis due to the loss of topsoil because of cultivation. Permaculturists advocate non cultivation to conserve the upper part of the soil which is called the rhizosphere. This is the upper 10 to 30 cm of soil which contains microbial soil building activity which is destroyed by cultivation. It also includes soil animals such as earthworms which are also destroyed by cultivation.

Cultivation destroys natural soil fertility which is replaced by chemical fertilizers. These erode into groundwater, and other waterways causing overfertilization to weeds and wildlife creating havens for invasive plants and death to animals in swamps, ponds, and streams.
No-till techniques are now being developed for commercial agriculture in this country.

I should hope so, since they have striped a lot of the topsoil from poor farming techniques. Mainly the over use of fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, leaving huge areas of bare ground, therefore losing enormous amonts of top soil to erosion, not to mention all the great things that was doing to are water sheds, not using good conservation practices.
Erosion causes hard pan!
And no commercial ag outfit I know of uses tillers. There's a BIG, BIG difference in the techniques used. Don't know what they've done to their soil in Australia or some 3rd world countries, but I do understand soil conservation as an old farm gal from Nebraska. I have a cousin who runs an organic farm and dairy herd and they're been telling him he's nuts for years. That's 3000 acres worth. Can you farm organically, on a big acreage, yep, but it's a lot more labor intensive and not as much profit! And profit is the bottom line with big ag. Some of Monsanto's favorite people.
Do you think the worms that are eating the earth are part of that permaculture group too? Not to mention the dude who was advocating double digging. Little too far fetched for me. There should be balance, big ag is not the same as a home garden and the same rationals should not be applied. I don't think any one technique is right for all situations and especially in home gardening, just not the same bowl of taters.

Soulgardenlove has done an excellent job of explaining it. You don't need to dig. You don't need an 800 lb rototiller. You don't need to haul away whatever your contractor has left in your yard. You don't need cultivation at all. You don't need to double dig. In fact it harms the soil, garden or field. If you leave your soil uncultivated and just add organic matter you will have what you need to build healthy soil.

Not buying into that one. Personal experience tells me different. And there is no one right way! As I said, it's about choices. Each one had to make their choice based on their on particular situation.

gloria --i took a first grade class to our recylcling plant --a woman used and apple to demonstrate our loss of soil--she cut away first of all 3/4 for oceans and other water--then cut away for mountains and desserts--next for concrete and cities and i am sure i am leaving something out but it ended up being a very small peice of apple (like a sliver)------it was such a good visual to remind us how we really need to protect that small ammount of soil (growing soil)---

oh and i think it is too funny how defensive everyone is of worms!! i like them too but still it is kind of funny--i think maybe they are not helping the forest but do help our gardens

Isn't there a little bit of irony that their can even be dissent about dirt? I think so :) And it is kinda funny how much we love our worms..

Docgipe.. oh yes, we have the dog too.. as you know they can clear a room..

I don't believe one size fits all.. When I first started out I decided I was going to go strictly organic and not ever use any Monsanto products in my garden or property. I was clearing out poison ivy coming off a neighbors trees to my property and thought I was clever and not touching it against my bare skin. In the interest of humor I'll even tell you that I carefully stripped off all my clothes at the back door, bagged them and double washed them separately. What I didn't realize was that the poison ivy resins were all over the clothes I was wearing and my bare skin touched and rubbed all over the clothes as I worked and as I disrobed............. I looked like a modern day leper. It got all over my arms..legs, belly and thank goodness I could sit ;) I had to comfort visibly worried mothers in line behind me at the grocery store by telling them "poison ivy" and I could see the look of relief come over their face as they realized they weren't going to catch Ebola. (Nice!) The dermatologist that treated me had been in practice for many many years and said he'd never seen someone do such a job on themselves and it was while he was putting the second shot in my backside that I figured a little roundup might not be such a bad thing after all. :) I now own it and use it as I feel it is needed to quite literally save my backside.

My cousins are local organic farmers with a real working organic farm http://www.ajc.com/living/content/living/stories/0711LVfarmbook.html While I learn from them, and have been greatly influenced by them, and appreciate them, I probably don't do everything they do. I do what works for me, what I've learned works best for my garden and soil and what I can manage to do.

I'm always learning and the older I get the more humble I become as i think back to when I knew it all and realize how silly I was.. like I was the perfect parent with all the answers before I became one .. ha! But the thought of 30 years passing and me thinking the same of myself now keeps me in a constant state of learning with a beginners mindset. I don't know it all.. just know I don't want to work any harder than I have to in order to have a bang up garden :)

Gloria, I'll read your article. Let us know where to find it when it gets put up :)

Doccat, 4 feet of rich loam is quite enviable!

:)

Susan



This message was edited Jan 23, 2008 7:16 PM

Exactly, the problem with worms as you will learn from Equilibriums thread, is that exotic worms were introduced into areas where they don't belong. Worms eat garbage, but in forests they destroy essential litter and kill the trees. Worms are not the only way to make soil. We need to preserve the full range of ways to replenish soil.
The sad thing is probably most people don't even know what healthy soil looks like, there is so little of it left.

In fact, in one soil conservation article I read, the author said most of the undisturbed soil left in the world is in cemeteries. As an archeologist I know that we routinely discard the plowzone of sites before excavation can even begin. Cultivation not only destroys the integrity of soil, it destroys the scientific information in soil which we need to figure out how soil works.

Like global warming, it is not a matter of choice. We will either do something to save the earth or we will not survive as a species. If we don't do something to conserve soil, there will be none that can provide the food that we need to support us as a species. We are using more and more land to produce less and less food. That is the issue.

Soulgardenlove, I've never gotten as bad a case of poison ivy as yours. So, even though I'm a big critic of herbicides, I now and then use Roundup on poison ivy and my Great Enemy, Japanese Climbing Fern. I'm one of those weird people who read directions and warnings, so I try to apply it properly. I don't mind getting it on me. You have to die of something, dontcha know.

But I'd never apply it where it could works its poisonous way into our already compromised groundwater. To me it's a time bomb ticking to go off when future generations come of age. I still feel like a hypocrite when I use it. Other than that, I don't use synthetic pesticides or fertilizers.

Gloria, thanks for defending the soil's right to exist as it was created, without turning it upside down and killing the good microbes.

I like stirring contorversy, so here goes. The book Ishmael (can't think of the author right now) is an environmental treatise disguised as a novel. The main character, a talking gorilla named Ishmael, says something that always intrigued me. Why did God favor Abel over Cain? Cain was a hard-working farm boy whose sacrifice was spurned while his brother's animal offering was accepted. How come? Another how come--why was Adam expelled from Eden? I'm not talking religion, DG administrators. I'm talking about the rise of "civilization" based on agriculture that turned the MIddle East into a desert.

I'm not sure to what extent the world's deserts were "caused" by cultivation but we do know that huge areas of the earths surface that were grasslands and forests have been impacted and the result is a high disturbance in the climatological patterns we see today.

More and more of the earths surface is being turned into cultivated land which destroys the original structure of the soil, the native vegetation, and the habitats of animals adapted to those habitats. Cultivated land is LESS productive than it was originally, so that it takes more and more land to produce the food that human populations need to survive.

The situation is now critical. By that I mean that we either are approaching or have approached a point of no return. Planet earth has been seriously damaged by our presence on it.

We are the only animal with the potential intelligence to figure out what we have done and turn it around.

We need to re-think how we are using the earths resources that we have at our disposal and restore what we can.

I would agree. Slowly but surely public awareness is being heightened as decades of research is hitting the Internet and just like anything else, it takes time and doesn't happen overnight. For me, earthworms are taking a devastating toll but... I garden in an area where no earthworms have existed since the glacial retreat of well over 12,000 years ago. I did not author that article. Not my thread, a woman named greenbrain started it and asked some tough questions. Psst, I'm a her not a him but I still like to play in the dirt ;)

Maypop, the active ingredient in RoundUp is the same active ingredient in Rodeo and AquaMaster. So what's different? The surfactant. The surfactant in Rodeo and AquaMaster does not build up in the fatty tissues of animals. I have begun to use the more expensive products... sparingly, very sparingly and according to the labels.

***disclaimer***
I am not a Christian but I certainly enjoy gardening. I do appreciate the thought process behind the questions though.
Allegedly, Abel brought the best of his flock which was stated to have been the firstborns. Cain did not bring the best of his vegetables choosing to set them aside for himself.

I was always taught Adam and Eve were expelled and sent to the Cave of Treasures because Adam ate the forbidden fruit? Is there more? Interesting read here-
http://www.bibleorigins.net/Edenslocation.html

I know that surfactants make a difference in the way toxins are delivered to target organisms. I've seen some studies that look at risk management features of herbicides used separately compared to those used in concert with other ingredients. The EPA's fact sheets are informative, but hardly user-friendly. My objection is this--how can we trust ecotoxicity studies by the very companies that produce the pesticides? The EPA regulates the levels of contaminants that can be mitigated by sewer systems and requires label warnings that are rarely heeded. No studies examine effects on human test subjects, duh. So how much pesticide accumulation can a person tolerate over a lifetime of ingesting compromised water and GM food that's been peppered with pesticides? We'll find out. I predict courtrooms full of class action suits like we have now with RX, tobacco, toys made in China.

Gloria, you caught me exaggerating. I should not have blamed agriculture alone for desertification. Ancient people chopped down forests for firewood and building homes and palaces. Trees hold moisture close to the surface, as others have pointed out in other forums. No trees=no rainfall.

The biggest problem is the humongous population which grows by more than 200,000 extra souls a day. And fewer and fewer people are making food for more and more people.

Equilibriums thread is so full of holes, questions and half-truths I choose to not waste my time there. It seems to be a breeding ground for type A professors with all sorts of unrealistic warped opinion and possibly questionable facts.

I acknowlege that this is a country of free speach. Free Speach is for anyone to any extent and as much or as little as one chooses to use it. By permitting free speach the others in this world can see and hear just exacty where most are coming from. If they where shunned and forced into underground type organizations is when I would begin to worry.

What I do wish would happen is that any individual or group professing any position such as this worm subject would pool assets, buy a chunk of this worm ruined mountain and prove by action not theory what they profess similar in effect to what the Rocky Mountain Elk Association has done.
Until it is done in that manor and fashion I consider much of the ranting and raving as emotional hogwash. In other words perhaps more pleasing just take one little thing you can do and do it then hipe the good, build a following into a positive mode to then increase the good being done.

Maypop: What I meant about deserts is that Im not sure to what extent deserts are a natural habitat or biome. Ive recently seen a s tudy that classifies the earths vegetative zones into grasslands, forests/woodlands (not sure of the distinction there), tundras, and deserts. According to that study, cultivation has displaced large areas of grasslands (savannahs) and forests, but has had a neglible effect on tundras and deserts.

Possibly desertification is a different process. I think it has to do with the exposure of deep salts on the surface due to erosion or cultivation.

As Ive said earlier Ive seen land destroyed by cultivation that was confiscated by the U.S. government for reclamation. (Archaeological surveys in Sumter National Forest South Carolina). That land looked like a desert --- miles and miles of unconsolidated red blow sand. The original 20 ft of soil had been removed by erosion.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2120/is_n8_v75/ai_16541432



Effects of invasion of an aspen forest by Dendrobaena octaedra . . ..

This message was edited Jan 24, 2008 10:06 AM

Very interesting thread. I did take the time to read all of it.

I am pretty much an organic gardener , do have compost piles, also a shredder and use shreds on top of garden whenever available. My garden is just beginning 13th year here. Lived and gardened at my other place for 50 years after marriage. I am also pretty much no till now. Used BCS rear tined tiller for several years after moving to this location that had never been cultivated before. I have a little electric Mantis, but use it rarely, depend on compost and mulch now.

Lots of very good information on this thread.

Donna

Again, not my thread. docgipe, I'd like to take a moment to say I am so very sorry you feel the way you do.

I'd like to suggest that those who subscribe to docgipe's beliefs please read "Forest Dynamics and Disturbance Regimes" by Lee Frelich. At the back of Dr. Frelich's publication, one will find page after page of references to just the type of formal research docgipe is demanding. Unfortunately, this book has been out for a while so current and ongoing research is not cited however one can go to the invasive species site maintained by the Feds for current and ongoing research. Exotic earthworms are irrefutably doing some damage and the science to back it up is most certainly out there for the taking just as it is for stray cats decimating songbird populations. I own indoor only cats, it was real hard for me to accept that my sweet innocent peaceful looking fluffies curled up by my heat registers could wreak such havoc in the environment and be the source of so much controversy... but they can... and do and the science is out there to back it up for those who are interested. Same deal for me with exotic earthworms in the area where I garden. It was real hard for me to swallow that the wonderful wormies of my childhood, although great for many gardens, might not exactly be in the best interests of quite a few ecosystems. Looks as if we're all down to emotion v. logic.

I can't answer your questions maypop. I've wanted surfactants listed on labels for a long time.

Here's what I do know. I canceled my lawn service a few years ago. Wasn't all that comfortable contracting with a company named ChemLawn. My kids roll around and play in the areas we were having treating and then there was the issue of what I was allowing to leach down into the water supply. I had repeatedly been asking ChemLawn to share with me what chemicals they were using on my property and the technician claimed he didn't know. I called the main office, they repeatedly claimed they'd get data sheets to me. Didn't happen. I am so careful with chemicals myself and truly had issues with them spraying on windy days and coming out to apply their herbicides when air temps weren't optimal and had long been asking them to time their applications more appropriately and consistently with what ever labeling was on their products. I was told this wasn't possible because I wasn't the only customer they had. I ditched them. I began taking care of the small portion of my property that was lawn myself. Marked improvement but then again I began using more natural products such as corn gluten meal and the few chemicals I did use were applied properly. I have a wetlands here so I was familiar with which products were approved for use in a wetlands and why. Surfactants are really a big deal I've come to learn. I simply began using those products upland. That was 4 years ago. It was the deformed frogs I kept running into from time to time that really concerned me. Presto, no deformed frogs for 2 years now and I additionally have a phenomenal insect and salamander population on my property again. At any given point in time, there are at least 10 species of birds at my husband's feeders. Possibly more if I was better at identification. He's the birder, not me.

Gloria125, I'm in my infancy regarding a working understanding of deep salts. I have a friend working with them who was sent to Australia to research same. I think I'll ask him create a deep salts for dummies just for me when he returns next year... unless you want to create a deep salts 101 for me and anyone else who might be interested. Might be worthy of its own thread though.

editing to correct user name.

This message was edited Jan 24, 2008 11:52 AM

As a point of information, I am Gloria125, not Gloria123. my birthday is tomorrow not yesterday. I had to use my birthday because gloriag was already taken. gloriag is another worthy and very intelligent DG member from Virginia.

I would not like to become something other than what I already am. Worked hard to get this far.

thanks everyone.

gloria125

Oops, I'll go correct that.

Thanks Equil. And thanks for reminding everyone about the devastation of exotic earthworms.

All you fishermen. Put the worms back in the can, not on the forest floor.

OOh, Equil, you are going to get some flak for mentioning "stray cats decimating songbird populations." It's one of those inconvenient truths that cat people don't want to hear. I love cats, but my old house puttytats have died off and I won't ever have another--for that reason. They are natural predators of songbirds and ground-nesting birds like quail. When my neighbor moved in with her cats, the bobwhites disappeared, even though they had been like fleas on the hundreds of acres around here. Yes, fire ants do kill chicks, but they never hurt the bird populations like the cats. I don't mind bobcats. They're part of nature, just like deer and wolves and black bear. I accept losses to wild animals as recompensation for the destruction we've done to their habitats.

I'm also glad your frogs aren't deformed any more. Do you know the metabolic half life of the pesticides that were used on your lawn for years? They can persist in soil for a long time. Have you ever thought about replacing your turf with a different ground cover? or a fruit orchard? You may be in one of those homeowners covenants that require a sod front lawn.

As for the allusion to Cain and Abel, I was not making any religious connection. I was referring to the ape called Ishmael (not the one in the Bible or the guy in Moby Dick). The book suggests that Cain and Abel represent 2 groups or tribes of people who lived in ancient Mesopotamia--the farmers supplanted the nomadic herders (in effect, "killing" the good guys). The book is in libraries everywhere. You may want to read it. I think it was written in the 70's or 80's??

docgipe, excuse my opening another "can of worms," but I haven't seen anyone ranting or raving or spouting emotional hogwash. We're just looking at scientific data from universities all around the country.

soil building question==does anyone use shredded newspaper for composting? I'm good at shredding leaves--and lasagna gardening with sheets of newsprint. I don't vermicompost, not that I have anything against worms.

Below is a link to an interesting chapter on soil losses. Also the Small Farms Library has many other interesting books on building healthy soil.



http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Lowd/Lowd1.html

Oh, I believe te reason t Abel's sacrifice was more pleasing to God was that Abel had a revelation of the price to cover sin...the shedding of the innocent blood of a lamb...a type of the Lamb to come.

Yes. I use shredded paper to build raise beds, along with leaves, pine bark, rabbit poop, straw, and kitchen garbage and old potting soil and misc. dead plants and weeds.

My two cents on till verses no-till............If a gardener has a smaller group of beds, perhaps the no-till works fairly well on those beds by pulling back the covering and setting out some plants or sowing some seeds. If one has a ¼ acre, acre, or several acres, power equipment comes in handy to sow, break up cover crops, work in some manure, and some weeding that mulches would be prohibitive to cover well.

Indy, how deep do you till? There's a difference between no till and low till. Even with no till, we open up the earth, just don't turn it over. Minimal disturbance

On amended beds I mix in some horse manure in the fall and add mulched leaves on top. The soil is very loose and might till 5 inches with a fast ground speed pass.

On regular flat areas I like to lightly stir residue and manure in the fall and in the spring till where the rows or hills are to be to make a nice seed bed. If I have a winter cover crop, I want to stir it enough to kill it well before planting time..

On another garden I wamt to shallowly plow under cover and residue in the fall after chopping up green crops to wilt a day or two before incorpprating into the soil....[per either Cato or Plato...I don't remember which]. Then in the spring I till where the row is to be and ridge a bit because of sometimes heavy spring rains.

Hey maypop, I can't answer your question because ChemLawn never did share with me what they were using over here. Over the years I've been slowly but surely decreasing the lawn. Goal is to have all but a very small area out back around the patio gone at some point in time. Even in that area I won't have traditional turf in favor of planting Buchloe dactyloides (Buffalo Grass) which only would have to be moved once maybe twice a year if that and it doesn't require water. For the other areas of the existing lawn; I'm going to add more raised beds, more landscape islands, and permeable paths before wiping out the remaining turf and planting it with other native grasses. Currently, my husband spends about 2 hours a week mowing and trimming, I'd like to free him of that task and if I time this propely... we won't have to replace our 20 some year old riding lawn mower or the gas push mower he uses around trees and such. Yes, we have a very picky HO Association but there's not much they can do about my gardening style any longer and others are now following suit so we're not the only home leaving areas natural to the curb. I have a small hobby orchard here but lost a few prunus spp. to black knot last year. A neighbor has infected trees and it made its way over here. Dibotryon morbosum is an airborn pathogen. I took down the ones I had that were infected and will replace them with resistant varities or other fruiting trees that aren't susceptible to black knot fungus. Neighbor still hasn't gotten around to removing and burning his in favor of trying to treat them so they're out there spreading the fungus to all the fruiting and ornamental cherries/plums in the neighborhood.

Forgot to mention that once they stopped treating my lawn, we began enjoying fireflies again. Hadn't seen but a handful since we first moved in and now our night skies are loaded with their soft glow. And, my husband described perfectly to me a Star-nosed mole that he saw last year. He claimed he'd never seen anything like that before in his life and told me about this pink flower looking thing on its nose that looked like it was a part of the animal. I about flipped out when I realized what he had seen and pulled up an image on line that he said was definitely what he had seen. How come him and not me! Boo hoo!
http://personal.der-bantam.de/works/features/images/t_star-nosed-mole.jpg

The elimination of my lawn is one of the reasons why I lurk back in this forum. I'll probably be smothering my grass and planting plugs through layers of newspaper. Have to finish the hardscape and paths first though.

I love studying the history and prehistory of Mosopotamia with whatever Books we have, possessing any info on the agrarian/pastoral aspect of man's continued presence in the area and I'm not sure if the matches I have to burn to override my dogs flatulance as a significant addition to the problem in relation to all the belching volcanos and forest fires each year. (We have thousands of lightning strike forest fires in Alaska each year) (yes thousands!)
Carol

Hey Carol! Are you still having night up there?

We are still having frosts, although the spring flowers are trying to bloom. Forsythias got frosted.

"Yes, we have a very picky HO Association but there's not much they can do about my gardening style any longer and others are now following suit so we're not the only home leaving areas natural to the curb."

Equil, hooray for you. Sounds like you are leading by example. Fireflies and buffalo grass and a starry nosed mole! I hate to think that there are those who would want to kill the little guy, who's just doing what he was designed to do--aerate the soil and add a little fertilizer. Isn't it fun to play in the yard?
And not have to worry about kids and dogs and frogs getting sick from it?

Indy, your tilling comment is Greek to me-- "Cato and Plato"?

My only regrets are that my husband is the one who saw the mole. I can tell you I was having some pretty nasty "Life's Not Fair" thoughts after I realized he was the one who saw it not me and I'm the one who is out there all the time not him and he didn't even have a clue what he had seen. Have you any idea how few people there are out there who have ever even seen one of those?

Equil, You are surely in the minority with being exited about a mole.

maypop, The remark about Cato is what was said about letting a green cover crop wilt good before turning it under. Course, on this particular thread it is heresy to turn it in or under. LOL

Naa, all my friends were excited too. We're out and about all the time and none of us have ever seen one but my husband walks out back to chase after something that blew off the patio and out into the woods and he sees one??? They're certainly not common. Many people whack them with shovels while others poison them.

Moles are neat.........when they are not tearing up your yard. Lots of moles in Indiana.

Around here if you clean up your yard and garden grubs with Milky Spore Disease the moles will go to someone elses property for lunch.

Then Equil would never see one, Docgipe. Maybe she could give the neighbor some milky spore to chase the moles her way.