Need help IDing some Grays

it must be close to bedtime... my dogs come and get me when they are tired and had a rough (ruff) day..lol, I'll seeya tomorrow.

Gourd, I just checked my original packet from Emma, and she put down I. nil for "No Name, Rosey-Red, Blooms Like Crazy".

hmmm. Would having more than one flower per pedicel classify them as I. youjiro? Seems like that would be too easy.

g'night, A.

Don't know if this is a proper cultivar, or not, that belongs in PlantFiles. It's -

I. nil 'Royal Majesty'

This one was labeled, I. nil 'Shibori'. When I key in that name in a PlantFiles search, I get Fujishibori, which is very different. Is this I. nil 'Shibori' a proper cultivar in its own right, too?

Here's how it looked in my garden last summer. This is not its best picture, but I want to show the two very different flowers that both appeared on the same vine. As the season got older, the type of bloom on the left became more predominant - it did not show up at all earlier in the season.

This one came from a cross from Gardener2005 involving I. youjiro and a pink blizzard. I cannot tell the difference between this and OhioBreezy's I. nil "Berry Ice". It's fascinating to me how a flower from two different species can be almost identical across the species divide...not as dramatic as a bromeliad flower that looked just like a daffodil, but still...

It's the deep rose pink with white picotee in the foreground.

garden context --

Gardener2005's youjiro that looked just like OhioBreezy's I. nil "Berry Ice" - close up

This is the same large, rose-pink flower that appears in the post just before this one toward the front of the arbor facing the camera

This message was edited Mar 18, 2008 7:03 PM

Karen, the lighter marked glory on the left looks somewhat like Lilac Luster
from Emma. I also got the same bloom on the right but on a different vine,.
Both came out of seeds marked Lilac Luster. At least that's what I remember.
I'll try to find a pic of Lilac Luster but I really didn't get good pics of that one.
Ref post # ending in 9247

This message was edited Mar 16, 2008 12:45 AM

bluespiral-Karen_blu ----

The Rosey-Red one looks like it may be the
Wine'N' Roses here
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/55120/

Botanical nomenclatural clarification -
a pedicel is the stalk of one flower
a peduncle is the larger stalk supporting several pedicels

Regarding the entry for "Fuji Shibori" and other 'shibori's..

Fuji Shibori - Ipomoea nil
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/71470/
is actually a speckled pattern and the Yamato_Noen company catalog has always called this simply "Fuji Shibori"
The 'wisteria tye dye' is a western appendage applied by the person who entered it into the PlantFiles in an initial early attempt to render the description into English.

The Fuji Shibori speckled can produce solid purple blooms even if hand pollinated and it is my impression that at least some of the solid blooms referred to as simply shibori may represent solids from the Fuji Shibori.

The shibori/sibori appellation stems from the pattern resultant of the process in Japan of dyeing textiles in a way that produces a pattern that may resemble the patterns produced by "Tye Dyeing" but the shibori/sibori patterns are not exactly like those produced by the Western method of "Tie Dyeing"...

The MG pattern most often associated with the term of shibori/sibori is the Blizzard patterns,but Dr.Yoneda also refers to the flaked patterns as 'sibori'...

The term Shibori/Sibori appears to be used in a more generalized sense than the more specific descriptions that refer to the gene patterns like Blizzard,Speckled and Flaked...

My impression is that descriptions that refer to the patterns described on Dr.Yonedas flower pattern chart here
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/flower_pattern.html
and those descriptions that most accurately describe the observable features are most likely to be helpful to enthusiasts in the short and long term...

Hope this helps to clarify the aspects in question...

TTY,...

Ron

Thank you so very much Karen for posting some of the pics !!

Thanks to you I will be able to grow some of these beauties or close to them ? right ? or not ?

As I mentioned I grow 100+ roses and unless I take a cutting from the rose I will not get the same rose when I start with seeds.

So my question is do some of the MG come true to seed i.e.commercially sold i.e.Grandpa Ott's ?
Or can ANY MG seeds not come true to what is sold or traded ? or wil some and not other's ?

Karen,since I received your goodie package :-)) yesterday pm I have read and read,printed and saved pictures etc.

I also make labels immediately when I seed them .For storing the little envelopes I use a smaller cookie tin.
My own DL crosses I put into medical glass viles with small labels on them.
Since I LOVE photography I always take numerous pictures and will be able to post and hopefully share alot of seeds this fall,
Brigitte

Thanks, all - appreciate the clarification.

Hi Brigitte, on the labels of the seeds I sent, it should say either "OP" for open pollinated (since most of the harvest wound up being OP, that's probably what you have now) or "bagged", meaning the flower self-fertilized itself inside a baggie where pollen from other MGs could not be carried to it by bees and other critters.

I think Atenkley once estimated that approximately 83% of open pollinated offspring might have characteristics similar to the parent, but given all possible variables, I don't think we can actually predict that with much certainty - only estimate. My curiosity will be to see how next year's seedlings vary from the parent with regard to the neighboring mgs - near and far - and maybe to learn a little more about how dominant/recessive genes work. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree entirely here, in which case I'll hopefully learn something unexpected.

One more problem with predicting how well next year's seedlings will stay *true* to their parents is that, since the parents themselves were sometimes not true to their label, I suspect there's even more instability of genes in that respect. Sometimes 3 out of 3 vines from a labeled group of seeds would have 3 different appearances - all different from the parent's label. Although I'd like to see if the outstanding ones could be stabilized, at the same time, I'm fascinated by what the accidents can tell us.

But, knowing the pod parents and neighbors, my thinking was that one way or another, you would get beautiful mgs.

Here are a couple of links relating to pollination that might be helpful -

Diagram of a MG flower and its reproductive parts - http://davesgarden.com/tools/mail/pm/288879/

Hand Pollination How-To by Dr. Yoneda - http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/E/menu.html (Click on Introduction and follow links to Table of Contents and Pollination)

Everyone feel free to jump in if I've made mistakes here.

ps - Ron, the Rosey-Red pic was taken late in the day when the edges had slightly curled so that the small rays and broken picotee sections located at the ends of the primary folds were not visible to the camera.

Now, I've got some questions, too -

Do some MGs belonging to I. nil have just one flower to a pedicel, and others have a peduncle supporting several pedicels? Can one vine have both?

And then, regarding the patterns by which Dr. Yoneda organized mgs here - http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/flower_pattern.html, there are some things I find confusing about those blizzards (#9 Blizzard and #10 Striped (Blizzard). I noticed how the dark navy flower of Silky Blue started out as a solid last summer, and then progressively became more and more like #9 Blizzard (it even threw a completely double flower for which I could not stay long enough to tag and photograph that day).

Do those blizzards change in and out of any other of Dr. Yoneda's patterns in the life span of one vine? I can't be sure, but in an area** where a flower like #10 striped blizzard appeared, after it disappeared, the #12 decolored crest pattern appeared. Is it possible that the flowers on that vine changed in one season from #10 to #12? (I did mark which vines I suspected of having those flowers - only seed from vines about whose identitiy I was sure went out).

Well, there's tons more questions about how those patterns relate to each other in terms of dominance and recessiveness, and I have a feeling how genes are physically manifest must involve complexities beyond just those two elements. But the questions are too ill formed in my attic right now to articulate - it's an area I know many are very curious about.

karen

** Some vines of Akatsuki no Umi and HamaginaNOT (turned out to be 'Cocoa Chocolate' my favorite) were in this area. Would anyone know enough about these cultivars to take a guess at which of patterns #10 and #12 might have been most likely to occur on which vine - alternative to #10 becoming #12? I imagine there are some unknowns that may make that kind of guess-work moot, but humor me if you can.

ps - The seed of Akatsuki no Umi that I sent out did not come from the above confused area - it had its own spot in the sky elsewhere so there was no confusion about its seed pods.

I'll have to stay off-line until tomorrow - thank you in advance for any enlightenment.

Karen,

Are you saying that the 2 'different' looking flowers here are being produced by the same vine?
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=4668991
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=4669685

You asked

"Do some MGs belonging to I. nil have just one flower to a pedicel, and others have a peduncle supporting several pedicels?"

Yes,although the number of pedicels per cluster is often strain related

"Can one vine have both?"

Yes,although the number of pedicels (per se),per cluster and peduncles is often strain related


Pattern #9 has dark primary folds in contrast to pattern #10 which has light primary folds
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/flower_pattern.html
but Dr.Yonedas living reference photos don't seem to accurately reflect the fold color in the drawings...

1. Autumn shower (flecked)
Suzumehu and Siguresibori (sobakasu)
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/F_patterns/01.html

2. Dyeing in different colors (flecked)
Suzumehu
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/F_patterns/01.html

3. Flaked
Jouhansibori
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/F_patterns/03.html

4. Speckled
Hukkakesibori
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/F_patterns/04.html

5. Margined
Fukurin
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/F_patterns/05.html

6. Ray white
Youziro - (note alternate Romaji spelling with the letter 'z' instead of the letter 'j' particularly as a suffix)
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/F_patterns/06.html

7. Ray flow
Younamisibori
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/F_patterns/07.html

8. Rayed
Kurumasibori
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/F_patterns/08.html

9. Blizzard
Sima (Hubuki)
Yanagihubuki
Willow Blizzard
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/F_patterns/09.html
Dr.Yoneda states in one area that the Blizzard is dominant,but this is apparently an inadvertent error as in the area where he delineates the exact genes and their functions both Yoneda and Kyushu specifically state that there are both Dominant and Recessive Blizzard genes...I guess we can cut them some slack...(!?!)

10. Striped (Blizzard)
Sima (Blizzard)
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/F_patterns/10.html

11. Striated
no images yet
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/F_patterns/11.html

12. Decolored crest
Nukisibori
no images yet
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/species/F_patterns/12.html


There are at least several Blizzard genes with 3 Blizzard different Blizzard genes being Dominant and at least one Blizzard gene being recessive...some blizzards start out as solids and progress to becoming more variegated...

Plants that have gene combinations of the various patterns that are represented on Dr.Yonedas flower pattern chart are certainly existent and displays of pattern progressions from one pattern to another are certainly possible...further documentation is needed and in order...

Personally the patern presented as #12 the decolored crest is a pattern that requires further clarification and I wonder if the drawing is precisely accurate...

There may be some language obstacles present in the translation from Japanese to English...the word crest in English would ordinarily refer to the top of something or something very close to the top and yet in the drawing of the decolored 'crest' the portion of the corolla decolored is NOT what would be the crest of the petal in English...

The Ipomoea purpurea 'joyce cobb' looks to be closer to a decolored crest as represented in the photo than some Ipomoea nil that I have seen referred to as having a decolored crest...

So far those enthusiasts who enjoy Morning Glories and are also bilingual in both English and Japanese have had extreme difficulty translating when knowledge of the science of Botany is a pre-requisite to adequate understanding of the material involved and this can often result in old unscientific myths being perpetuated instead of the achievement of up to date scientific clarification.

When we get someone who speaks and reads both Japanese and English extremely well and is sufficiently interested in the scientific clarification of the terms as applied by Dr.Yoneda and Kyushu, and how those terms may or may not be up to date with the latest Internationally accepted Scientific nomenclature (i.e.,used as accepted standards by the International Genome Project), only then may we achieve answers that are sufficiently scientifically accurate to be applied to our descriptional usage...

Yes,we strive for very high standards here...we aim and shoot for the Stars(!),and if we only reach the Moon(!),Well then that's Okay...

TTY,...

Ron

This message was edited Mar 18, 2008 6:28 AM

I`d like to contribute additional ideas to this subject. I would never put any web site up on too high of a pedestal. There are at least one typing error on Yoneda`s site but that doesn`t mean the information isn`t useful.

Consider that when they say dominant blizzard it means it is dominant. That would mean the flower either has a blizzard and shows the streaking or it doesn`t. That is why my F2 crosses of a blizzard x solid flower threw some solid flowers.

When they seeming contradict themselves mentioning a recessive blizzard this could possibly refer to a weaker blizzard gene recessive to another kind of blizzard,partially dominant or possibly acting only if two of the blizzard genes are present. I have read about weaker genes for doubling responsible for the extra petals in the middle of some large flowered varieties and this recessive blizzard could possibly be a similar situation.

I did a cross between another solid and blizzard and the result in the F1 was a much more subtle and intermittent manifestation of the blizzard the parent plant showed. Now a grow out of F2 will reveal more about what is going on here(with these particular flowers.)

Karen

The de colored crest means the petal waves between the creases are decolored or lighter. It looks just like paint drying. The way you differentiate it from the ray pattern is there is a central somewhat circular area lightened right where the petal undulates ever so slightly outward between the creases in the corolla. The ray pattern will show lightening all the way to the edges of the petals.

I`m not going to state whether the term "crest" should be used for morning glories but wish to explain what this looks like and how to not confuse it with the ray pattern. I can identify with the word crest as the crest of the wave of the corolla undulating between the petal creases. If there were another better term than de colored crest I`d accept it but the picture of the pattern would be in my mind regardless of the name.

Karen

I did a cross between another solid and blizzard and the result in the F1 was a much more subtle and intermittent manifestation of the blizzard Than the parent plant exhibited. The blizzard in the F1 was a lighter "weaker"so to speak manifestation than the parent I paired with the solid bloom.

Now a grow out of F2 will reveal more about what is going on here(with these particular flowers.)

Karen

This message was edited Mar 18, 2008 10:23 AM

There is at least one typing error. I see how the flower corolla comes out the middle,goes up to a "crest" and back down to the margin in a slope. The decolored crest is a light spot at the high point before the corolla curves to the edges. It is also between the creases. I need to draw a picture of the side view and a arrow where the markings appear. The weather and humidity might have a effect on the appearance of this characteristic as well.

What would that area of the corolla be called in botany terms? Karen

Brigette,

This is me following Dr. Yoneda`s instructions on hand pollination. Maybe, I should have quoted him and used him as a source to validate my thread so it wouldn`t appear as if I was presenting myself as some "expert" and I had just recently made a discovery or something. ;)

I assumed everyone "knew" about this and we didn`t have a picture thread to help newbies so I volunteered. Karen

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/732341/

I love the gray mg. I have never seen one quite that color.

Karen,
thank you so very much for the link,I have gathered some great info so far.So much to absorb,you are great to make all of your knowledge available.

Also will go to Dr.Yoneda's site when I find it,probably will print to put into my new MG folder,
Brigitte

Thanks everyone for your comments above.

Brigitte, I still have so much to add to that index. Here's the home page for Dr. Yoneda's website: http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/E/menu.html .
Click on Introduction
Scroll down to bottom of page under "New Additions" and click on the link to his book.
This will take you to a wonderfully comprehensive, easy-to-read beginner's guide to morning glories, which is Dr. Yoneda's free, online, digitalized book.

Enjoy

ps - I gotta say - none of the knowledge to which I'm putting up cyber-signposts is mine. It wasn't until I planted EmmaGrace's generous gift of seeds in the summer of 2006 that the beauty and fascination of this flower dawned upon me. Everyone here has been my teacher, one way or another.

Since I'm trying to keep photos from our 2007 garden in one spot, I hope y'all don't mind my dragging out this thread again in order to post a few more. I am either out of seeds of some MGs I have grown, or the seeds are already spoken for (am getting out the last ones, now). Hopefully, in 2009, I'll have some more to share. Plus - hopefully - y'all have been growing out some of my seeds and finding other folks with whom to share these seeds as I shared with you. So bear with me until next year's garden.

How can any of us stand to wait for the sun shining down on our morning glories this coming summer?

This one is a 2nd generation Ipomoea nil 'Chocolate Rose Silk' from EmmaGrace.

What gorgeous blooms Karen. Wonderful color

Ipomoea nil 'Kawaii' - red (This vine turned out to be pale pink - parent came from EmmaGrace)

Thanks, Jackie - I don't think I could have gotten that kind of result growing them in pots. The seed was planted late enough (5/20), that as soon as I saw the backs rising of the germinating seed, I could whisk them immediately outdoors, and they shot off like rockets on the 4th of July. After the 3rd set of true leaves appeared, they were planted directly into the ground with liberal shovel-fuls of compost in an area dug deeply and fluffed with lots of organic matter over the years (when my hinges were younger).

2007 was such a wonderful year for morning glories for us, Jackie - the deer hadn't found a way through our barriers, I planted them a month earlier than in 2008, and no spot was off-limits to them.

I escaped from the summer of 2008 with a seed here and a rooted cutting there with which to try most cultivars new to me, again. So, in terms of not losing cultivars alltogether, it could have been worse.

So far, the coast is looking clear for an earlier planting of MG seeds this spring. Am not feeling entirely confident about the deer, though. We've done what we could last year, and have a couple more barriers to improve when things warm up again. grrr

Well, lemmesee - this one's Ipomoea youjiro 'Blue Star' from Gardener2005. It was a simpler star than its sibling, which was similar, but more complex. I'll post that one, next. Honestly, I can't decide which one I like best - ByndeweedBeth was right when she said words to the effect that sometimes the more complex an MG, the uglier. hmmmm. I like both of these very much.

Here's the more complex sibling of Gardener2005's Ipomoea youjiro "Blue Star" -

Here's a pic of the Ipomoea youjiro seedling descended from EmmaGrace's "Baby Blue and Pale Pink" in the 2nd generation, referred to in the 14th paragraph here: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=4672231 The 3rd generation from EmmaGrace's "Baby Blue and Pale Pink" was fascinating - more about that when I post the 2008 summer pics.

#12 pattern "decolored crest" referred to here - http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/species/flower_pattern.html - is what some of us on this thread were talking about

I'm not sure, at this point, if the flower I'm posting here falls within the category of "decolored crest", but will categorize it this way until someone clarifies this for me. For now, I'll call this one Ipomoea youjiro "Panels"

A large, very pretty, clear, medium pink I. nil 'China Doll' from EmmaGrace. It started out as a darker, solid pink, but then toward the end of summer, began developing these interesting shadings. Shortly before frost, a few specks of blizzard appeared.

Wonderful bloom photos, Karen! Love the chocolate blooms! So dark and rich in color! Very nice all of them!!!

Thanks, Becky. 2007 - what a year - sigh

"ByndeweedBeth was right when she said words to the effect that sometimes the more complex an MG, the uglier. hmmmm. "


Ron sez "Beauty is in the Ear of the Listener"...

Well, to be totally honest ...

I haven't met a Morning Glory I didn't like! It's just that some I like better than others ...

Hi bluepsiral,

I will make attempts to comment on your questions above as time will allow.

Your Pale Pink Kawaii here
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=5930800

Mine too ended up to be Pale Pink that I grew from the same seeds I sent to you. When I grew the 'Red' Kawaii, that was the only Kawaii MG I grew that year, so no chance for any Pinks to get mixed up. I grew again this year and again got from 5 plants, the Pale Pink with Picotee edges on most. One was a Pale Pink with no Picotee edge, and one was a Pale Pink Picotee with Kawaii-type 'Variegated Leaves'. All of the others had the Solid Green leaves.....go figure!

Your Rosy-Red MG from seeds from me - here
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=4668991

I am guessing from my description to you that 'Blooms like Crazy' tells me this is one that I grew in 2006 that was a sport of '??', or possibly a stray seed. I will need to go back to my handwritten notes to see what I planted originally that produced this MG. I've never grown this one before and have not yet grown it out again. It is different [I think] from the Wine and Roses or SOHs that I've grown because the bloom was much smaller. If I remember, about 2" to 2-1/2" bloom.
Do you remember if yours had small blooms?
Also, I think I still have the list of seeds I sent to you that I will locate and see if I can figure it out from that as well.

I have grown several MGs over the years that I have not yet gotten an ID on and refer to them as 'Rosy-Red'. Most have Picotee Edges, and this one that I think you grew is the only one I can recall that did not have a Picotee Edge. Also, since this was such a prolific bloomer, it would be grand growing alone and away from any other MGs.

Below are some of the original photos from 2006 of the 'Rosy-Red' with small blooms and Solid Green Tri-lobed leaves, for you to compare.

Emma

Another Front View

Side View

Hi

This is my beautifull picture from my Velvet Plum that my wonderful friend Emmagrace sent me:

Hi Kokorota - Emma's 'Velvet Plum' is unforgettable - thanks for sharing your pics so I can relive that incredible summer of 2007. In our garden, Velvet Plum stood out because it was so unusual for any vine with such stupendously large, gorgeous flowers to produce them as prolifically and generously as a smaller-flowered vine might. Plus, this vine was so vigorous, that new vines from the leaf axils were renewing the vine before rust had succeeded in killing off the previous growth. In general, I think I had at least 3, and sometimes 4, waves of new,regrown vines from leaf axils, throughout the rust hassles in some cases.

Emma - wherever you are - thank you

Many beautiful flowers in this discussion along with tons of very interesting information! So much reading to do, so little time (it seems)!

Lovely Velvet Plum, kokorota!

And Kokorota - I still have a pot going of that Ipomoea albivenia from the seed that you sent me - it hasn't flowered, but maybe this summer - thank you for that, too :)

Pretty flowers Koko.