Crinkled vs uncrinkled

Today I am somewhat puzzled over the fact that my vine produces two types of flowers, crinkled and uncrinkled ones. I have heard that MGs sometimes have split and unsplit flowers or single and double flowers on the same vine. I cannot fully comprehend that...I don't want any amateurish answers like, well, well, no snowflake is like the other because there must be a scientific explanation for what exactly is happening on the biological level (I am talking genes). I suppose this is a week analogy, but to me it's a bit like a hen laying white eggs on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and brown eggs for the rest of the week if you know what I mean. It's either brown eggs or white eggs...

Ok, here is the uncrinkled flower.

Martin - If you want answers that are not amateurish then you have alot of studying to do on your own...

The color variations do occur and because you or anyone else does not comprehend them does not prevent them from happening...obviously you are very aware of this already...

Think about how an animal changes from childhood through maturity...if the dna is the same >then why the change(?)...

What about the coat color changes that animals go through...>What causes it(?)...What enables certain invertebrates,vertebrates like skates,lamprey and octupi,fish and reptiles to change color extremely rapidly to almost instant camouflage(?)...pineal spot,pineal eye,pineal apparatus and pineal gland...mobilizes pigments very rapidly to match the surroundings that it 'sees'...(!)...

The pigments in the plants are very enzyme dependent and enzymes can fluctuate rapidly and be very unstable...

Here is a link to a thread that includes a link to Dr.Yoneda's listing of the various genes...

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3262581

Have Fun(!)...

TTY,...

Ron

Thanks Ron, there is enough to ponder about for some time...


Martin

Welcome to the world of morning glories. There are plenty of answers "Why" the scientists can`t find out much less us backyard hobbyists. They gather data of what is happening but finding out reasons "why" takes more time. Many folks don`t want to know badly enough to go through the process of documented experimentaton to find answers for themselves. You however could be the exeption if you really want to know for yourself.

Tag your flowers with the labels crinkly or smooth every morning and at the same time note the temperature,humidity and weather conditions like rain or wind. Follow the vine and see if crinkly and smooth flowers are on the same vine. Check the weather patterns and compare it to the state of your flowers. Do this for three or four weeks and you may notice some pattern emerging.

Kikyo and hige flowers do have doubles and singles on the same vine. Grow some and tag those flowers with the characteristic double,semi double and single labels and follow the vine and low and behold you`ll see this mysterious phenomenon is one of the cool traits of JMG.

Karen

Quoted from Gardener-2005 in http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3978673 :

"There are plenty of answers "Why" the scientists can`t find out much less us backyard hobbyists. They gather data of what is happening but finding out reasons "why" takes more time. Many folks don`t want to know badly enough to go through the process of documented experimentaton to find answers for themselves. You however could be the exeption if you really want to know for yourself."

Karen-05, doesn't an intelligent answer result from both unbiased observation and intelligent questions? In fact, it's the testing of those questions in the form of a hypothesis by those observations that comprises the scientific method.

Martin, you will learn a lot by Karen-05's method. I think it's great.

But scientific illiteracy will only bring you so far. Doing the research that will enable you to understand the enzymatic activity involved in MG flower changes like color, texture, shape, etc. will give you an answer with depth far beyond a neolithic chipping yard.

Of course scientists can't answer everything. Karen-05 may as well criticize them for not being flying pigs.

But they have an approach to "facts" that I wish was not so uncommon: They view a conclusion as the hypothetical question with which to begin the next round of inquiry comprised of unbiased, documented observations per Karen-05.

Karen-blue

This message was edited Sep 16, 2007 2:52 AM

To sum everything up,both study and hands on in the garden experience is needed to help you understand your flowers better. Karen

This message was edited Sep 15, 2007 8:35 PM

KO5, so glad you are able to see the positive relationship between research and observation, and thus, hopefully, the value of Ron's post.

Thanks Karen-blue and KO5. I noticed different types of leaves on my four-o-clocks today, but I am not sure I can post this in the MG forum...We cannot answer all questions in one day, of course. But surely, different leaf (there are up to 4 different types on one Mirabilis plant) shapes have nothing whatsoever to do with changing enzymes or temperatures causing colour changes in ipos. The only answer I can give myself is 4 leaf shapes indicate 4 strains of plants genetically combined...Genetically, these four types may be present in any Mirabilis plant that only shows one type of leaf because the other leaf types happen to be recessive...I have heard before that only what's already in the genetic pool can be manifested.

[By the way Karen-blue, I happen to be a linguist, too. I am a bit baffled about your neolithic chipping yard...what did you mean by that?]

OK, here is my theory if MGs have double and single flowers on the same vine, then, in most likelyhood, the infertile doubles (I know there are also some fertile doubles in the split Ipomoea purpurea) will appear later, so far I haven't seen any on my vine. So I reckon the plant can afford the luxury of double flowers because it has already produced seeds -- We would have to see if there is a relationship between seeds produced and number of double flowers...This rises another very interesting question, which scientists will deny, but lay people may not...

CAN PLANTS THINK? Maybe this could be another interesting thread just to see what people have observed and why they think plants can "think"...

bluespiral,

I greatly value all of Ron`s contributions. I never intended to leave out any studying to find answers. Ron provided the study part of the equation and I added a suggestion to go outside and investigate in addition to studying. I`m sorry you didn`t make that connection. Ron is one of the most learned, most concerned and helpful members here on the board.

gofast, These JMG plants have different strains that will produce all kinds of different combinations of traits literally 1000s of possibilities and it is amazing! Going outside and observing the same genetic traits you saw on a site such as Ron pointed out is another thing that makes growing morning glories fun.

Karen

This message was edited Sep 16, 2007 9:13 AM

Martin -

You mentioned...

"But surely, different leaf (there are up to 4 different types on one Mirabilis plant) shapes have nothing whatsoever to do with changing enzymes or temperatures causing colour changes in ipos."
ENZYMES are what co-ordinate all of the genes and make them work...think again...

"I have heard before that only what's already in the genetic pool can be manifested."
mutations occur all the time and are expressed phenotypically but aren't necessarilly passed on...


"We would have to see if there is a relationship between seeds produced and number of double flowers.
This rises another very interesting question, which scientists will deny, but lay people may not...
CAN PLANTS THINK?"

The chemical feedback loop that let's a plant know that it has produced ripe fruit may not be considered 'thinking'...

but check out the work of Jagdish ChandraBose and Plant Research...he pioneered the theory that plants have a nervous system that can feel...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdish_Chandra_Bose

Good questions...

TTY,...

Ron

VERY, VERY INTERESTING, thank you for that link, Ron. I had this idea whether plants can think last year when I tried to beat spider mite with my own home-made concoctions (to very little effect at that stage I must admit, I am more successful these days because I studied my enemy). In the end, I asked myself the question what had really killed my plants, was it spider mite, my concoctions...or a combination of all these factors. I came to the conclusion that over getting this darn mite eradicated I had completely stressed out my plants...

TTY

Martin

If you find the time to read the story of Jacob and how he tries to influence the progeny of Laban's and his own flocks by changing the environment, read Genesis 30:31 - 43. I am not sure if I understood all the implications of the story, but Jacob seemed to believe that by placing sticks and branches with different patterns he carved into them a in the immediate watering areas of the flocks, these would be perceived by the flocks and reflected in their progeny (that will have spotted and freckled youngs)...This wasn't just a crazy idea, it pretty much seemed to work for him...


Martin

So if we put up posters of the showier flowers we like around the 'plain janes' they should pick up on the message and 'get with it'(?!)...or pictures of ourselves when we had the measles this should induce speckled flowers...


????

My two cents about the crinkled vs. uncrinkled--to me this does sound like there are different growing conditions that produce the different blooms, even if they are on the same plant. The petal is growing faster than the ribs to make it crinkled. This could be a result of water available.

But the various leaves on the same plant--this happens with a lot of plants and isn't to do with genetics of different plants being combined into one, as far as I know. It has to do with where on the stem the leaf is. Often, leaves at the bottom of the plant will have a different shape than leaves at the top. This could be the plant's way of handling sunlight.

Some plants, though, are known for having a lot of genetic possibitilies. I am interested in artemisias, and they are kind of famous for being sometimes difficult to identify because of the variation in the laf shapes in the same species.

Read that story, Ron, if you happen to have a Bible. That's my personal interpretation of the story, but I haven't completely grasped all the implications of the story...I gave you my personal interpretation in a nutshell and may have distorted what's written there...I have not understood why in the story Jacob's animals had to face "Laban's" flocks or why he did that thing with the sticks...What he did realize and that's why I quoted this here...is that there was a relationship between the environment and genetics...That's what you were trying to prove to me, Ron, by saying enzyme changes can result in genetic changes...

But anyway, we need to get back on the subject. Parecelsus, I do agree to some extent on what you said about the leaves being different depending on whether they grow low or high on the plant, which is the case sometimes, but not with these different strains of 4-o'clocks, which is proved by their different bloom colours...

I read Goethe's "Journey to Italy" the other day, which basically describes his tour from Munich to the Lake Garda and further into Italy. He observed that the higher he walked in the alps, the finer the leave shapes of the plants became compared to the same plant species growing in the valley, he also said something about the distances of the blooms on the plants, however I forget what these distances increased or decreased...

Actually, Auracana chickens can lay blue eggs one day, green another, and pink sometimes...too!

Well to put this one straight if Araucanas produce eggs of different colours then we are talking about different hens of that breed, so a hen that produces [or genetically manifests ] blue egg shells will always lay blue eggs, perhaps on one day a lighter and on another day a darker blue depending on her current physical condition (or the food she was fed), but the egg colour will not change drastically from blue to green or pink [?????]. Only Easter bunnies produces pink eggs.

Anyway, I almost fell off my chair because I had to lough so hard when I switched to the poultry section to find out more about this egg-shell colour phenomenon...

So the following question was raised there:
[This is not to make fun of anybody because we all have the right to ask questions that others might find funny...].


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx



I hope someone can explain this.

My Americauna hen was very sick, I don't know what was wrong with her, but I thought she was going to die. Well, she recovered, except for the use of her right leg, (we now call her Hop-A-Long) she does quite well on one leg , and has started laying again.
Now here is the puzzle, before she got sick she was in a run with an Americauna roo. and laid an olive green egg.
After she recovered she is outside where the only other chicken is a White Leghorn roo.that had been injured, and she now lays a light blue egg.
Anyone had an experiance like this?

XXXXXX

[I have erased the names here, its beside the point whoever wrote this]

Answer

Well, XXXXXXXXXXXXXX, I myself had the same problem. I'm thinking it's that each rooster has its own genes. Like if it mates with one roo I'll have one color egg. If it mates with the other roo, the egg/s produced will probably change color.
I too have a chicken with a leg that is not in use. My brother calls her (Gimpy), I think it's pretty mean.
Well Good Luck

xxxxxxxx

Well, good luck to all of us.


Martin

PS. The changing egg-colour is a fact, he or she has observed it, but it is more likely connected to the hen now running wild and eating other food then to her changing of rooster friends...

Very true...a change in food can produce a change in egg color. They do produce pink eggs, but not the bright pink you are thinking of, its more like a warm beige.

OT
Here are some of the egg colors. They hen can lay blue one day and green the next, probably due to diet.

Byndeweed Beth,

I like the egg picture. I think it is amazing that a little critter can grow inside one of those and break out of the shell.

About the cattle being bred in front of structures that influenced the color of the offspring,trying such a method today would make as much sense as building another Noahs Ark and waiting for another flood. I don`t think it would be quite the same. imho

I suppose you could do controlled experiments with your chickens to find out exactly the relation of diets and egg colors.

It might would be a neat idea for a child`s science project. I remember back in grade school doing a experiment with beans. I put some by the road, some in the closet, others in the sun and shade and gave them all the same food and water. I got a A (I think) but it was a long time ago. :)

Karen






This message was edited Sep 17, 2007 7:43 PM

I haven't had the chickens for years! Morning glories take up all my free time :)

Me too! I haven`t grown beans in years either.The JMGs are taking up all my time as well. :)

Martin - A little lightheartedness may be encountered here on the forum so don't be surprised if you do encounter some light-hearted responses...we enjoy a bit of mirth interspersed with all the science and art...so be assured that no offence is intended...

I was giving examples of where certain animals change colors to camouflage instantly like a chameleon...not necessarrilly gradually over a much longer period of time...and that enzymes are a key component for the extremely rapid coloration changes...

Yes,most animal and plant life do gradually adjust their coloration to suit the environment in some way but I prefer to rely on relatively 'modern' observations and/or scientific studies...attempting to interpret something like the Judeo-Christian Bible is not something I will do relative to or on the MG forum...

What is the 'true' color of a Cairn Terrier(?)...the characteristic of this breed of dogs is that they always change colors at least several times >albeit more gradually over several years...

Thanks for your offerings...

TTY,...

Ron

Martin- Sometimes a particular flower just does not open up all the way and this can cause a certain degree of crinkling in the bloom...this can happen on the same day that other blooms open up fully on the same plant right next to each other...

The blizzard and flaked patterns do show very individualistic patterns on every single flower...

I looked into this and found that it is ENZYMES that control this feature seen everyday...

So,no matter how many times the same question is asked or re-phrased in a different way >the enzymes responsible are most likely going to be a major part of the answer...

I'd like to suggest growing some of the flaked and blizzard plants as well as those plants that are known to present with alot of foliage variation so that you have a greater oppurtunity to observe this occurence first hand in addition to whatever other plants that you might be growing...

Just sharing from my experience in addition to any suggestions...

TTY,...

Ron



This message was edited Sep 17, 2007 10:43 PM

I sowed some silk blues in a little container some 6-8 weeks ago. I had two plants, one of which grew quite rapidly, the other was a bit smaller, so I didn't pay much attention. I read in a nother thread that if you have two plants one will take over...so I decided to transfer the smaller plant and put it in a milk container, which I moved in sunnier spot. Well, first I did not pay much attention, but after two weeks I thought, well, it still doesn't grow any faster. When I checked today I found out that it is a dwarf MG, also compared to the other it's not hairy (what's the opposite of pilous, impilous???). I find this surprising and need to check back with the guy from whom I bougth the seeds... Also, I'll have to see it if turns into a dwarf silk blue or if it's something else...but I didn't buy any dwarfed MGs with variegated leaves...


Martin

Martin - Whenever the identity of a plant is in question try to get closeups of the sepals if at all possible...

The opposite of 'hairy' is glabrous(smooth) but Ipomoea nil is not completely glabrous and even a very fine pubescence would not qualify as being completely glabrous if it is present anywhere at all..

Post whatever closeups that you can of the plants to do a comparison of the parts...

Plants can display a flexibility of certain features not usually present in animals and so always viewing the features of plants from the 'window' of what occurs in animals may inhibit an understanding of what is happening in the plants...there are helpful analogies of course but judicious caution should be used to avoid strict comparisons since these lifeforms are in different Kingdoms...

TTY,...

Ron

That's a good point, I need to bear in mind that these anologies are a bit weak...
My battery on the digital camera is flat now, so I need to recharge. Also it is still slightly dark here and I prefer to take photos w/o the flash...later on during the day I shall post a photo if no urgent translation arrives...


Martin

So, here is one photo s as promised earlier on.

Martin - That's an Ipomoea nil...

Ron

Thanks, Ron. Now, for the bud to open, this will take another 3 days. I shall post another photo then...


Martin

HMMMM.....observations show that if you show humans photos or movies of OTHER humans mating, they tend to start mating. Too bad plants aren't so open to suggestion!
LOL

Well, I suppose we need to get back onto the subject again.

Why are Ipomoea tricolor called "tricolor" are there only three colours, namely white, blue and pink?

What I find strange is that even though yellow does exist such as the i.ochracea and hederifolia, it does not seem to be present in either the tricolors, nor the purpurea, nor the nils...

I have been slightly reprimanded by Ron for making too many analogies with animals, and we are talking PLANTS here...

He is right, of course, but I have studied a lot of guinea pig genetics before joining this forum, so I think I understood the genetic principles well, and I am looking forward to thinking and doing the impossible (because limitations are often rather in our minds...and don't always exist we sometimes just imagine them).

So the question one needs to bear in mind when breeding animals or plants is: What colours or types do I want and can this really be done. For a long time, the tan gene (combination of black and red) was unheard of in gunea pig breeding till one day it suddenly popped up and was discovered by a judge who had known this gene from rabbits...From that moment, the tan craze started and almost everybody started introducing this gene into their stock.

I give another example where a colour was added into a rabbit breed. The colour "yellow" existed in rabbits, but the difficulty was to keep the spots separate from the black spots...so I put in two pictures here to demonstrate what I mean.

This one is a German "Schecken rabbit" with black dots only.



.

Beth - You are too funny!!!! LOL!

Martin - "What I find strange is that even though yellow does exist such as the i.ochracea and hederifolia, it does not seem to be present in either the tricolors, nor the purpurea, nor the nils..." Good question! I was wondering the same thing myself.

This is the Rheinische Schecken rabbit with black and yellow spots.
I hope I am forgiven my anology!!!

So, my question regarding Ipomoea nils, purpureas and tricolors is: Can we introduce yellow into our colour range for these MG types?

This would offer up such a multitude of new colour combinations provided the colours are not strictly dominant and recessive genetically, but that they can co-exist...

Hasn't the Ipo hederifolia (excuse my Latin) been crossed with purpurea before, I seem to remember that vaguely...


Martin

I am sure more people like yourself, Beth, have wondered about this, but let's try to find and answer...

Martin

Martin, from this link - http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/E/menu.html ,

click on Interspecific Hybrids for information on which species have been crossed with other species,

and then go back to Home and click on Prospect for some information on breeding with the color yellow

Thanks Karen, I had seen said link before.

I realize the animal analogy is not strictly true for plants...but some things we learn in animal science are good to keep in mind as far as some transmission of characteristics.

Martin -


"Well, I suppose we need to get back onto the subject again."

Actually I thought Beths post was right on target...

"Why are Ipomoea tricolor called "tricolor" are there only three colours, namely white, blue and pink?

Don't look for accuracy in the botanical names because you will rarely find it...memorize the names and the ID features...

"I have been slightly reprimanded by Ron for making too many analogies with animals, and we are talking PLANTS here...

When analogies help understand what is happening with the plants >that is great but when analogies lead in the direction of confusion and extrapolation which does not jive >then I try to steer the direction back in the direction of accuracy...

What I find strange is that even though yellow does exist such as the i.ochracea and hederifolia, it does not seem to be present in either the tricolors, nor the purpurea, nor the nils...

Please look at Dr.Yonedas work and related studies of trying to get yellow into I.nils...you'll find alot of what you're thinking about...

The current botanical classifications have been substantiated by DNA sequencing of the relevant dna sections...plants that have been crossed inter-specifically have all been extremely closely related and mostly in the batatas series...
Here's a link to the list...skip past my 'trans-mutilated raving's and on down to the 'rational' material...
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=2840807

some comments
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=2870357
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=1744041
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3246244
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=1746692
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=2870357
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=1758253
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3547659


So, my question regarding Ipomoea nils, purpureas and tricolors is: Can we introduce yellow into our colour range for these MG types?
Read Dr.Yonedas years of study and attempts at this...

It would be great to get a large richly colored yellow like Ipomoea ochracea to cross with something...maybe you'll be the first...you have to get it to flower 1st(!)...

"Hasn't the Ipo hederifolia (excuse my Latin) been crossed with purpurea before, I seem to remember that vaguely...


No Never...


I'm working on (and have been working on) getting yellow and orange into a large type like nil,purpurea and/or tricolor...so far no go...they are just too far apart genetically...

Read the links...

TTY,...

Ron