Here's a photo of what a dried up calyx looks like next to one that had just dropped it's spent flower. The green one still has an undecided fate. Hard to tell at that early stage whether it was fertilized and will produce seeds or not.
This message was edited Sep 18, 2007 5:29 PM
I noticed that some blooms will wither and the petals/flower will literally fall off the plant such as this bloom.
Here you can see the calyx getting ready to release and drop the spent flower.
Others stay on the plant and turn hard and change to a dark color. It does not release the spent flower.
When the calyx is producing seeds, it plumps up like this one in the photo.
My question ....
Is there any correlation to the dropping of the flower petals OR hanging on to the flower ... that is a tale-tail sign of whether or not the bloom was fertilized and the calyx will go on to make seeds?
"To seed or not to seed ..... that is the question!"
Now that my containers are lined up along the patio and therefore giving the bees more room to get to the blooms, I am truly hoping that seed pods start forming. This is a HUGE concern for me right now as I love all these vines and want seeds for Spring and trading.
This message was edited Sep 18, 2007 5:39 PM
I use a tiny art painbrush to pollinate my blooms. Be sure to clean the brush between pollinations or you will just be cross-pollinating varieties.
Becky - This one here
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=3990461
looks to me like it is(!) producing seeds...look at it very closely and you'll see a few reasons why...
Your questions..
"Is there any correlation to the dropping of the flower petals OR hanging on to the flower ... that is a tale-tail sign of whether or not the bloom was fertilized and the calyx will go on to make seeds?
No,they always drop the inner flowers...
"Someone mentioned "brushing" the pollen to fertilize the blooms. What does that mean? Do you use a paint brush or what?"
Use a very fine tipped artists brush made of natural hair to wipe it up against the anthers to pick up the pollen from the donor and carefully apply it onto the stigma of the gestational flower...or use a tweezers to pluck a stamen and then use it to paint the surface of the receptor stigma...
Hope that helps...
TTY,...
Ron
Thanks, Ron.
I honestly do not know what a fertilized calyx looks like. I do know as time goes on, a plump calyx is a sure sign that it is producing seeds. But early fertilization signs.... I am naive to the details. Please do share this information with me. I would really like to know what to look for. :-)
Becky - Take a very(!) close look at the calyx here
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/beckygardener_1190150620_321.jpg
on the left side of the sepals you can see the dried up remains of the upper portion of the remains of the style >but(!) the lower part of the stlye on fruiting seedpods becomes the necessary component point on top of the pod which contributes to the circulation of the plants vital fluids throughout the developing pod in nourishing the seeds...
Look closely and you can see that the lower portion of the style has indeed turned green(!) and swelled to become the top part of the developing seedpod...
The degree of swelling at the bottom of the calyx(relatively 'slight' as it may be) is also an indicator to me that the pod is producing a swollen ovary...
Hope that helps...
TTY,...
Ron
P.S. - Never(!) remove the style from a flower because the lower portion forms an important part of the top of the seedpod...any damage to the style can cause an otherwise successfully fertilized seedpod to abort...it is much better to leave the reproductive parts alone and allow any to fall off on there own when the plant senses that it is time to do so...
This message was edited Sep 18, 2007 11:40 PM
Joanne - The long rectangular containers that I am using are not very deep. Personally, I find that the vines are quickly outgrowing their home in these containers. I am also finding that the Bamboo stakes are not holding up very well. They are rotting at the bottom in the soil from being watered every day. The whole set-up is very unstable and doesn't give the vines much room to grow and spread out. I have to wedge the containers in-between something to keep them from toppling over because they are top heavy once the vines really take off.
For anyone thinking of growing them like this, I don't think that you will like this set-up. I am thinking of growing my next seeds in individual 3 or 5 gallon pots. I am also thinking of using narrow PVC as plant stakes. I think they would hold up much better than the bamboo. And they would last more than one planting. I do like making a teepee frame for the vines to climb up. So .... I will see if the next grow out will be much more successful using individual pots and PVC stakes. I will post those when I start them. (Probably soon!)
Ron - Thanks! I am learning plant terminology and found this website link. Is this website description correct?
http://www-plb.ucdavis.edu/labs/rost/Rice/Reproduction/flower/fertiliz.html
Yes,that's accurate except that in Convolvulaceae the double fertilization occurs differently in that each pollen grain carries 2 sperm cells
1 sperm cell fertlizes what will become the embryo
1 sperm cell fertilizes the material which will become the seedcoat
Pollen tubes in Convolvulaceae usually take from 20 minutes to several hours to reach the ovary area...
Here's few links to threads where I shared on this aspect previously
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=1847785
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=1915552
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=2032974
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=1758253
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=1758362
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3262975
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=2606433
photo in my reference files of Ipomoea pollen on stigma sprouting pollen tubes
TTY,...
Ron
This message was edited Sep 19, 2007 12:38 AM
Thanks Ron for educating me on MG fertilization and for all the great links! It's fascinating how these vines survive and produce seeds!
I am starting to see what looks like seed pods forming on several of my vines. Whew! I'm relieved! I was beginning to think that it might be slim pickings with this group of MGs!
I would like to know what kind of growing set-up others here have to grow a large variety of MGs. I'd really appreciate some photos of what all of you are growing your vines in or if they are in your garden beds. Many of you have been growing them for years with amazing success! I am looking for ideas.
I am thinking about making several obelisk from livestock fencing and use in the pots of each cultivar that I grow out next. I know Cat (TTP) had success doing that.
I am still leary about growing them in the ground along the fence, so I want to stick with container gardening with the MGs
Becky, what are you afraid of if you plant them direct into the ground? I'm just curious because you know I only READ this forum and don't have much practical experience! I have my first MG growing now, all of them the same variety and all planted in the ground. I'm going to plant the "other seeds" next spring. I didnt' think there was enough growing season left to successfully plant the seeds you gave me THIS year.
Pat
Pat - I had several beautiful MG vines growing in the ground along my fence and a fruit rat came along and chewed and severed the vines (killing them!). I think the rodent was sharpening it's teeth on some of my vines and other plants. Grrrrrr ..... so that is why I am growing them in containers with chicken wire over the top of each container now. :-) I would much prefer to grow them in the ground, but I'm not wasting anymore seeds/plants on rodents!
The seeds I sent you should be good for quite some time given the right storage conditions. I sent you some that I grew in the Spring. All nice ones! I hope they grow and bloom profusely for you next year!!! :-)
AAawwww .... to prevent animal attacks on your plant! Now I remember you saying that earlier!! I think the memory is going, but I'm not sure. Hehehe
The blasted Snapper mower would NOT start for me, I ended up mowing with the old electric mower. I'm disappointed to say the least. Oh well... Ben will look at the Snapper on Monday when he has some time.
I have 2 more questions ....
Question 1 :
When a seed pod forms and produces seeds, do all the seeds produce the same vine from that individual pod? In otherwords ... does one sperm fertilize that bloom and regardless of how many seeds are produced (1-4), does each seed carry the exact same genetic make-up? Like identical twins?
Question 2 :
Does tie-dye cultivars sometimes show blizzard patterns on the blooms? If so, are they then consider a blizzard cultivar or still tie-dye?
Hi Becky,
1. Each seed is idividually fertilized, thus unique in its own right. The one thing that all seeds in a single seedpod or from a single plant, for that matter, have in common is that at least one half of their genome, comes from the pod parent plant. If the seed happens to be self fertilized, (fertilized from pollen of the same plant/flower) , then all of its genetic material is from the pod parent. Each seed is still unique because each chromosome of genetic material is basically independently segregated. This produced variation when the parents contain pairs of chromosomes that are not identical, such as..one chromosome has the recessive form of a particular gene, and the other chromosome of the pair has a Dominant form of that same gene.
2. Tie-Dye plants are plants that carry the Blizzard gene. As there are several different and unique Blizzard genes, the characteristics we associate with the Tie-Dyes are probably due to a unique combination of these genes.
hope this helps some! - Arlan
I've sure learned a lot on this forum. I was hoping my one Scarlett O'Hara that seemed true would produce seeds I could depend on. Guess for that I'd have to hand pollinate, and that's a lot of work for a vine that lies mostly on the outside of my balcony.
Becky, you tried to warn me to stay AWAY from the MG forum if I could not handle ANOTHER plant addiction... I FINALLY have my very first MG bloom!! It's only one lonely little bloom but I had to start somewhere with one! I need to have a whole lot more blooms than this if there is any hope of producing an addiction!! ;-)
Thanks for clarifying the seed fertilization for me. So when I mark a particular bloom because I want to grow it out .... I need to grow ALL the seeds that were produced from that particular bloom if hoping for a vine that produces more flowers as the one that was marked?
I'm still a little unsure about the whole hand pollinating thing. I think I need to wait to try that when I have more time and patience and a better system of IDing my blooms. lol
Pat - I'm growing out over 20 different MGs currently and they are all different and amazing!!! THAT'S what got me hooked. :-)
We must remember that JMGs normally self pollinate, so that most of the seed produced by a plant will be selfed. Usually, only the occasional seed is cross pollinated. Because I don't get upset when an occasional stray appears, I typically do not take the time to bag my flowers....but that is a personal decision I make, and I have not made claims to guaranteeing repeatability.
If a strain has been in existence through many generations and not hybridized, they typically will come back "true." revclaus, chances are that your SOH will come back very close to what you have. Unless you really have the urge to hand pollinate, I'd be tempted to tempt fate(!) and just grow the open pollinated seed. What is the worst that can happen? Another attention grabbing flower?!! I think the most important thing is to enjoy the process...and that is what I see here every day!
Just remember that the closer you are (in generations) to the original cross, the more variation you will find. Some characteristics are more stable than others too!! ....and some just refuse to settle down, and are constantly changing, such as the typical Blizzard pattern.
Becky, I'd say that if you are saving seed from an established variety, most of the variability has been selected out, so most seed will come back true and the very few odd ones will really stick out.
Most importantly, continue to have fun! - Arlan
Thanks Arlan! I am enjoying all the MGs I have grown this year and am looking forward to more!
Thanks for taking the time to explain all of this to me! I appreciate your time and effort on my behalf to educate me!
Here's the SOH I found today, and I can see the whole vine, so now it's tagged. I should have a few seeds to try next year.
That SOH actually looks pretty RED! It's one of the better ones I've seen.
That's what I thought too, Beth. But I just read somewhere that you can't depend on the seeds reproducing the same color, even if they're from the same pod.
WOW, now that bloom caught my attention, very nice! I keep waiting (Unpatiently) for my Heavenly Blue to get with the program and BLOOM. Its covered with buds and I've only seen 2 blooms so far...
You have a better chance of a repeat performance if you hand pollinate that flower to self. Do be careful...no climbing tall trees or hanging off balconies trying to pollinate.
Just hand pollinate a handful you can reach easily. If it is the only ipomea nil you have then I wouldn`t worry about hand pollinating. The long vine small flower varieties are usually very fertile on their own. Karen
Nice bloom, Judith! Solid red!!!
You know another thing I love about MGs?
I planted seeds on Saturday (9/22) and today is Tuesday and I already have 5 vines with their first leaves! What other plant can germinate THAT fast???
This message was edited Sep 25, 2007 9:57 PM
This is the other reason I love MGs. This is a photo of today's blooms on Yaguruma Blizzard..... one single vine!! Several vines looked like this one only different cultivars. Some of these vines produce so many flowers that I get giggly with delight just looking at them each morning! Makes my day!!!!
This is funny. I am paying more attention to other plants in my yard. I love 4 O'Clocks. I've been growing yellow blooms for several years in my backyard. This year I planted seeds for the Hot Pink blooming 4 O'Clocks in my front yard garden bed.
Well look what I am now finding on the blooms in my backyard! These were originally all yellow blooms. Now I am seeing a cross between the two. In one photo (bottom right corner) you see a narrow stripe and if you look closely .... you'll see a Blizzard pattern of pink spots! Crazy huh? I didn't know that these plants could do that !! LOL!
This message was edited Sep 25, 2007 8:40 PM
I think 4 O'Clocks are MG wanna-bees! LOL!
Here is a full photo of the 4 O'Clock Blizzard pattern. :-)
This message was edited Sep 25, 2007 9:18 PM
I loved photographing mine this year as well! This was my first year growing them...fascinating. - Arlan
...here is one of my white / pink blizzards....
Oh my gosh, Arlan! Those are really cool. What were the parent colors? I see yellow, pink or red (not sure), and where did the white come from? Do they come in solid white?
So are you growing out the seeds to see what you get from all those blooms. I tagged mine. I am soooo interested to see what the seeds grow out to be. But again, it probably has to do with the current bloom pollination.
Sorry to get off topic from MGs here. But this fascinates me ... all these crosses regardless of plant. :-)
I received the seed as a gift in a seed trade with a fellow DGer. I have no knowledge of their heritage... I got completely pink ones like yours, the white/pink blizzards, one plant of mixed white/pinkyellow and a yellow with pink marks. I have saved some seed from each...so may grow them again next year...even though I think they are perennial in my zone. I don't know much about them..!
Do yours grow year round, or do they die back seasonally?
Arlan
They grow year round and have huge tubers/roots. Mine are in pots!
Becky, I think ya got some hanky-panky goin on with the 4'clocks!!! LOL, seriously, those are BEAUTIFUL!!! I just got a start given to me of a beautiful dark pink. Mine will probably remain borely solidly beautiful since I will only have the one for a while at least...
Pat - I can send you some yellow 4OC seeds. My Hot Pink have yet to produce any seeds. Don't know why. Blooms like crazy and there are 10 plants .... NO SEEDS! The yellow are the only ones I can get seeds from at this time. And I get lots of seeds from them.
Interestingly enough, my yellow smell wonderful. Like honeysuckle. I have about 20 plants in the backyard and when I step outside at night .... it's divine! Whereas the pink in the front have an odd smell. Sort of like a weird shampoo smell or something. Not nearly as sweet smelling. I don't know why that is. Maybe because of the growing conditions they are in. The ones in the front are in the ground. Sandy and less fertile soil. So these 2 varieties of 4OCs are quite different.
