Hey Critter! Glad to hear from an expert. I think my snake has left, but do you have any advice in case I find him stretched out behind my refrigerator? I think my dogs would have found him if he was still in here. If you haven't read the above, I found the snake going under the burner in my gas stove, then I found him draped over the iron pots I keep in the oven. I do have a lot of mice and rats around here.
What IS THIS??!!
I'm not officially a snake expert, LOL... that "phase" was more about reading everything I could find on snakes and terrorizing the local garder snakes by catching them and keeping them caged for a day or two so I could feed them earthworms... what can I say, I was a kid!
You got good advice above on how to catch/hold a snake, except that I would suggest putting him into a pillowcase rather than a trash bag to transport him. Just because he's not "harmful" doesn't mean he won't bite, so it's better to nab him while he's sleeping or just lying there looking mellow. I don't use heavy gloves because it's much easier to judge your grip without them (too loose and he'll twist away from you, and he won't be mellow any more... too tight, and his eyes will bug). The body of a snake is very firm and muscled, so just grab and wrap your hand around behind his head, don't be tentative. If you've never handled a snake, I promise he won't be slimy... those scales are smooth and cool, like a well waxed floor.
BTW, if you ever do get popped by a (nonvenemous!) snake, please *try* to wait for him to let go rather than wrenching away from his mouth. I know that's easier said than done, but if he lets go on his own you'll just have pinprick marks, and he'll get to keep his teeth for catching those mice. (Again, this does not apply to any snake you think might be a venemous, especially not to a coral snake... their venom is at the back of their mouths and often doesn't get into a bite at all, but you don't want them chewing on you... Remember the rhyme for telling them apart from other snakes by the order of their stripes, "Red on black is friend of Jack. Red on yellow will kill a fellow.")
Oh, and if he really is behind the fridge or somewhere inaccessible, I'd let him move to a place where he's easier to reach before trying to grab him. Actually, I'd probably opt for letting him stay to catch rats... but I know my DH wouldn't be so tolerant! If he's looking for a nice place to curl up, you might even be able to get him to go for a little cardboard box, open on the side, maybe with an old rag or two to make it inviting... then all you'd have to do to move him would be to close up the box. :-)
Now all I would have to do is get Miss Emmagreyhound and Rosoe The Rascal to leave Mr. Snakey alone while he gets used to that box!
Fortunately, for him, it looks like he has gone on to greener pastures. Now I just have to find out how all these critters are getting into my house.
If not for the dogs, I might not mind him curling up next to the stove in a cardboard box with a few of Emmagreyhounds squeeky plush toys--just so he stays out of the oven! She has a few that she doesn't play with much any more: a little lamb that goes, 'maaaa maaaa' and a green ninza turtle that plays a Scottish jig.
Critter, the reason I suggested a trash bag rather than a pillowcase, was because she said he was several feet long. I myself have used a pillowcase for a smaller snake. But, yeah, the fangs could puncture a plastic bag. NOT good.
Edit: I checked the memberlist, and there is another member in Greensboro, AL, but I don't know him, and don't know if he'd be able to help. And I know it's not a great idea for a woman to invite strangers into her home. Critter, it's a nine-hour drive for me, how about you? LOL
Another Edit: Actually, Gloria, I am sure you are perfectly capable of dealing with your new houseguest, since you are not terrified of him, or hate him like so many people are. I think that's terrific that you are intelligent and respectful toward's God's creatures!
This message was edited Jul 22, 2007 1:19 PM
This message was edited Jul 22, 2007 1:57 PM
critterologist: the poisonous snakes we have here are mainly copperheads. Ive had to deal with them before. There was a gardener at the historic house where I worked. He killed a lot of snakes and there was no talking him out of it. The copperheads are sort of cement-grey and when you kill them they revert to copper color. They are very prolific when they find a place. They were in the basement of an outdoor old kitchen at the historic house. But, the babies would come out and be under bricks or rocks around the yard. Like Yotedog's slimey critter above in this thread.
I've been told we have copperheads out here, too, but I've never seen them. We have a multitude of black rat snakes, though.
Amazing how that slimey critter started all this! Yotedog, did you ever discover the source of that "pitter patter of little feet"? I know that here, it means deer mice. Those are reaaaallly little feet, though. LOL
KyWoods: Ive lived in rural areas most of my life. Actually, Ive lived all over the place: NYC, San Francisco, all around S. California, etc. etc. including Lexington, Ky, but I gravitate to the rural areas. As an archeologist I spent a lot of time doing surveys in the woods. Many of the guys I worked with were Viet Nam vets. One way or another, Ive run into what ever is out there and Ive learned to take a deep breath and figure out the best way to deal with it whatever it is. By far the worst Ive encountered have been human stalkers, scammers, and scumbags.
You go girl!!! Yeah, the human vermin are the worst. The animals only know how to be what they are. What an interesting job that must be--archeologist! I'm always finding what looks like old native american tools or weapons when digging here. If I post a photo, could you tell me if that's what they are?
I don't like spiders and snakes.....(isn't that a song?)
I too have done well to overcome a phobia about spiders. I see no reason to kill them or the snakes here.
But I can see that there could be a time that the action may be warranted.
I do not understand why people are so fearful of snakes. I do not like them, but am not scared of them. I can see that taking out one snake, can affect a balance of the bad ones. Get the word out.
If those people know they are making the situation worse, maybe they will stop killing the good snake.
Killing snakes is a manly thing to do in Alabama. Its not something thats likely to change. In west Alabama so much of the population has grown up in cotton fields, and in poverty buildings where snakes commonly come into houses, their experience with snakes is one of seeing their animals die from snake bites. Practically every one I know has a friend or relative who has died from a snake bite. Thats why they kill snakes. It would be a major campaign to make them understand that killing the snakes predators, makes the poisonous snake population increase. Not something they understand.
KyWoods: I would contact the archeology department at The University of Kentucky, at Lexington, to identify your artifacts. They are interested in knowing the distribution of the different kinds of tools, and are more likely to be familiar with local forms of artifacts. Note: The Federal government spells archeology differently than State Goverments, so in Kentucky it is probably spelled archaeology (!). You will find archaeologists in the anthropology department.
Wow, you can tell I live in the North!
I feel much safer up here with the bears and cougars!
cpartschick: I grew up near Traverse City Michigan.
You know what I mean then.
You should have kept some land there. The prices are some of the highest in the nation now.
My family had about 300 acres. When my folks died I sold my part to my sister who is still there. I couldn't afford to pay the taxes.
That is for sure. It is amazing.
Pretty area. I can see why it is so popular.
Shovel headed slug.
Equilibrium
Aug 08, 2007
Oh oh oh! I found the snake in the oven thread. Look at all this excitement while I was gone that I missed!
Quoting:
Equilibrium: Bigger snakes! This was your idea. Now there really is a snake in my stove. He crawled in through the burner and now he's in the oven.
Well. I guess that is where the mice hang out. But this Wildlife Gardening is a little bit too realistic for me.
Ugh.
I sent him to you special delivery by mental telepathy or something before I left. You should have left him in your oven and used your microwave. He would have gotten hungry sooner or later and slithered out to provide you with some really great non-toxic rat control.
Heya!
If you click on the *new* "Articles" tab on your homepage and scroll down to some of the older articles that were posted to DG, you'll find a photo and a bit of info about the critter in the photo at the top of the thread.
And while I'm on the subject, be sure not to miss the *new* daily article on your DG homepage!
O.K. equilibrium. Your snake finally left, and I feel like the ecology around here is a little more balanced.
I wonder if Yotedog ever found out what was thumping around in her attic?
Equilibrium
Aug 08, 2007
Hey Gloria, did he get any undesirables before he left?
Hey critter, I read that article.
Quoting:
Flip side of the coin- I sort of think it's a good thing that the land planarians are eating earthworms in my area. The little problem would be that for you and me, earthworms are as non-native as land planarians and in my opinion... considerably more destructive to the environment than a land planarian and this is something that is rarely discussed in gardening circles.These long, slimy, longitudinal-striped worms with a flattened head -- a native of Indo-China that hitched a ride on greenhouse plants -- will actually melt earthworms with an enzyme before slurping them up. And they do it a lot. Blech
This writer discusses some of the misconceptions about earthworms quite nicely-
http://www.synthstuff.com/mt/archives/individual/2007/03/invasive_species_earthworms.html
Here are some other links that are basic overviews of the concerns associated with the 45+ species of European and Asian earthworms that call our soil home-
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialanimals/earthworms/index.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A31789-2004Mar28?language=printer
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-08/uom-eiw080103.php
http://www.nrri.umn.edu/worms/forest/plants_trees.html
This article was shocking to me-
http://graduados.uprrp.edu/inventio/vol2/earthworms.htm
Excellent excerpt from here on what non-native earthworms are doing, http://www.wvnps.org/earthworms.html-
Quoting:
Because Pennsylvania's forests evolved without earthworms these ecosystems depend upon fungi and invertebrate detritivores to slowly break down organic matter and gradually release nutrients back to the plants. The key to health in the Keystone state's forests resides in a fungal-based soil that slowly decomposes its organic matter. A healthy layer of leaf litter in a northern forest is woven together with filaments of fungi that also binds the litter to the soil. If you pick up a handful of leaves in an undisturbed forest you will notice lacy white threads weaving through it. That is the fungal hyphae. The slow decomposition by the fungi and other native detritivores keeps nutrients locked up in the leaf litter and only slowly releases it back to the plants: An oak leaf in this system typically takes three years to decompose.
The leaf litter in a forest is comparable to the skin on an animal. It retains moisture, protects the organs (roots), breathes, prevents erosion, deters pathogens (non-native plants), and promotes seed germination. A nutrient balance has evolved in this stable system between the vegetation above ground and the enormous biosphere in and below the leaf litter. When that system looses its leaf litter it is like puncturing your skin. Erosion follows and nutrients bleed quickly from the soil. Such disturbance soon exposes the soil, making it available to non-native, invasive plant species, compaction, and run-off of rainwater, which would normally keep the soil moist. The disturbed soil and invasive plants soon alter the stable system, causing a decrease in the diversity of plant/animal relationships, which in turn begins a cycle of non-native invasions that tend toward monocultures.
Earthworms are notorious disturbers of soil. Their disturbance creates healthy conditions for farms and gardens, but unhealthy conditions for forests. Earthworms have voracious appetites. In one acre of land, earthworms can turn over five tons of organic matter a year. When a forest system becomes heavily infested with earthworms they consume most of the leaf litter in one season. By summer’s end the "skin" of the forest is depleted and the vulnerable soil becomes exposed to weathering and compaction. This rapid consumption and digestion of leaf litter also releases the stable nutrients, which in effect is like fertilizing the forest. Again, fertilizing farm fields and gardens, which are essentially monocultures, benefits those systems. On the other hand, fertilizing a forest would be like planting weeds in your garden.
I remove worms when ever I come across them and I have areas on my property from which I am intentionally removing the worms, literally. I am removing the worms. The difference between areas in which I have reduced the worms and areas in which I have not is phenomenal and I am finally having success growing shade and native woodland plants that in the past died a slow death over time.
Here's something simple that all people who compost can do to help stop the spread of non-native worms-
Quoting:
In The Earth Moved (Algonquin Books, 2004), a wonderful new book on earthworms by Amy Stewart, forest ecologist Cindy Hale advises worm composters to freeze their castings in air-tight bags for a least a week before adding them to garden soil, no matter what worms species they use. "It won't hurt the soil microbes, but it will kill all the worms."
Equilibrium: I think he got his fill and then left.
I haven't checked out all your links on earthworms yet, so forgive me if my question has been anwered. (I did read about the alien earthworms from one of your previous posts.) My question is: how do you tell if an earthworm is native or not? what do you want in your compost? What if you get Red Worms from the local bait shop for your compost?
Do we need to get more of Yotedog's slimeys to combat alein earthworms in our gardens?
This message was edited Aug 8, 2007 10:40 AM
Yikes! There's an article in development (not mine) about worm composting... I think I'll zap the author a quick link to your post, and hopefully he'll include a line about freezing the castings... if not, those links might be a good thing to post in a comment when the article comes out.
PS I'm referring to an upcoming DG daily gardening article... you all are finding them on your home page and/or clicking on the new "articles" tab, right?? :-)
Equilibrium
Aug 08, 2007
Gloria, I don't know enough about earthworm invasions in your area to help you. I do know that you have native earthworms present and that is going to complicate the issue. There are some really good sites out there on worm identification and best to learn to identify the most common European and Asian invaders so you can feel comfortable destroying them. Kind of go at it as a process of elimination. They do have very distinctive characteristics once you become familiar with them. I have a partially filled pre-form pond with a ledge that I toss rusty crayfish in for the raccoons that I also toss worms in. I set out trays that will temporarily contain the worms and it's sort of like a smorgasbord for the birds. I also started whipping the worms up and onto my driveway for the birds. I actually feel like the Pied Piper these days because the birds follow me around when I garden because they know I whip worms onto the driveway for them. For me the identification process is very easy... there are no worms that are native to this area- all are introduced.
Quoting:
No, not a good idea. Do we need to get more of Yotedog's slimeys to combat alein earthworms in our gardens?
I know composting with worms enjoys a good following. I wish everyone who was vermicomposting was freezing their castings though given the most popular worm to use is Eisenia foetida (Red Wiggler) and that's an introduced species to NA> even the other commonly used Lumbricus rubellus (Red Earthworm) is not native to the vast majority of the areas where people are composting their little hearts out. All commonly used bait worms are non native so please don't go fishing and toss out unused bait.
I've got loads of worms in my garden, but I don't think the narrow fence row of trees separating our yard from the farm field behind us counts as "woodland," so I'm not going to worry too much about finding worms around those trees.
But not introducing species that don't belong is a good point.
And it sounds like you shouldn't go to the bait shop to find worms for your compost pile.
Equilibrium
Aug 08, 2007
On the lighter side, this was forwarded to me a while ago and the person who forwarded it to me couldn't contain herself laughing. She suggested that Eurasian non-native Lumbricus terrestris (night crawlers) be used in the recipes. Make sure you scroll all the way down to the earthworm chow recipe-
http://www.nativetreesociety.org/invasives/lee_worm_cake.htm
I'll eat just about anything but this would be pushing it for even me unless... someone fed it to me and I ate it and liked it without knowing what I was eating.
Now, if you are into shade gardening of any type in an area where there are no native earthworms, here's a mixture you can create to get them to surface so you can nab them-
Quoting:
1/3 cup of yellow mustard powder with a gallon of water and pour 1/2 of it on the ground in an area of about 2 square feet, and wait for several minutes. Then pour the rest and wait a few more minutes. Grab any worms that come up
There's a decent identification key buried in this site for what ever surfaces-
http://www.nrri.umn.edu/worms/identification/index.html
Have fun and don't forget- waste not want not! Let me see what you cook up in the kitchen with what ever surfaces!
And Gloria, a little extra reading just for you that I found when trying to locate more recipes from the guy who shared his cake-
http://www.nativetreesociety.org/invasives/earthworms_and_maple_seeds.htm
Im glad Im a vegetarian. Do you think these aliens are responsible for what's happening to the sugar maples in Michigan?
Equilibrium
Aug 08, 2007
Oh shoot, that's right! You're a leaf eater ;) Anyone else out there care to be brave enough to serve up a little earthworm chow for their family any time soon?
Gut feeling, these little aliens are but one of many factors responsible for what's happening to the sugar maples. The little aliens could be one of those deals where they are ultimately the straw that breaks the camel's back though.
It started raining, no more weeding and I was really on a roll. Had four decent sized piles out there ready to bag up.
I got weeds but no weeding here. its been over 100 degrees F. since 11 a.m. The dogs don't even want to go out there.
What's this? The aliens have landed? And we're EATING them?! Ptooooey!!!!
Seriously, though, I had no idea there was any such thing as non-native earthworms. Never gave it a thought. I will definitely check out the links--thanks, Equilibrium! Oh, and what's going on with sugar maples? We have those, too.
My sister says the sugar maple sap trees in the woods where I grew up in Michigan are dying.
Equilibrium
Aug 08, 2007
Yes, the aliens have landed and evidently somebody is eating them or there wouldn't be so many earthworm recipes out there for the taking.
You are certainly not alone having no idea there was any such thing as non-native earthworms. Most people don't give them a thought. I know I didn't.
I don't know that you have the same issues with Sugar Maples down south. I've barely been able to keep up with what's going on with them in Michigan myself. Here's one issue that I am familiar with but there are others out there-
http://learningstore.uwex.edu/pdf/A2532.pdf
Scary--thanks for the link. I will print it out and show it to my Dad, who owns our woods.
Thanks for the info on the worms and sugar maples. I have a maple that is almost 6 ft tall. I will keep an eye on it. The worms I actually don't have that many of. lol. Mostly in the garden areas and that's it. Just a few scattered around. I am leaving them alone because anything that makes our soil even a bit better is needed since our soil is ditch and cornfield soil. Just this past year have managed to get stuff thriving. lol
Our woods we call Pine Ridge, for all the pines and the big ridge through it. I am thinking we are going to need to change it to Maple Ridge. The maples are coming up all over the place in the thousands. So I guess they are doing ok here in our part of Michigan.
Interesting about the worms. When we have heavy rain, we get some pretty nice worms in the stream, so I know they are in the woods, yet we have lots of rotting leaves on the ground and native plants as well as mosses, club mosses, show a healthy soil. Maybe not too many worms then?
I was interested in the phenomenon of root collar rot as a consequence of professional planters planting trees too deeply. Around here, nearly all of the "professional plantings" have a pile of mulch packed up around the trunk of the trees. Thats probably why highway plantings never last more than a few years. Except for the Bradford Pears. they are just short lived trees.
Update time--No, I have not found out what lives above my bedroom...still working on it!
New problem, I still have the ugly, slimy, earthworm killer (he's living in a plastic tub...) plus some canadian nightcrawlers (not sure of real species) someone left at my house after fishing.....What to do with them all? Hate to kill them (I'm a whimp about killing...), but I'm thinking putting them out for the birds or chickens is the most logical answer...Any ideas?
Any school teachers or budding scientists (that promise to keep them contained want them?
NO! I'm NOT eating them!!!
Maybe the planarium would eat those nightcrawlers for you...