Happy Birthday Grampapa!!

Values are the pits to them, obviously.

It all starts at home, as I always say.

I never thought cooties meant lice or anything real either.
Pirl, please keep your pickin' on my ailments to the proper thread!

Your health is always on my mind, Dave.

Kids would be sent to the "school nurse" and in Catholic school, way back then (Noah's time), it would be one nun who was assigned the job of doing the double check on the poor kid with cooties. Then the parents were called to come and get the child. The kid was not allowed back in school for a week.

Gram, how nice to hear about your DGD.

I'm floored by the other stuff mentioned that middle school kids do nowadays. Next year my son starts middle school. Gulp!! He's 11 years old and acts like an 11 year old! His favorite things are legos and spiderman. He's enjoying his youth. ...sigh...

The problem is - young women have been sold the idea that sexuality = empowerment - not exploitation.

Now - young girls didn't invent this . . . and they weren't born knowing this. This has been marketed to them. It's all well and good to blame the parents, but this is a cultural thing that has immense social implications.

Everything is now sacrificed for the sake of the economy - even integrity and virtue. So unless the underlying values change - at a social level - you can expect more and more of what we value to be reduced to a mere commodity.

I am not sure how to fight this - except to hit where it really hurts - in the pocketbook. If there was a serious boycott of corporations, a serious attempt to pressure government to invoke anti-combines legislation against media giants (there are five corporations that control most of the media targetting kids), and a REAL sense of moral outrage by Americans (without religious intolerance and extremism), perhaps - perhaps things might change.

Lately, DH has been taping The Waltons because there is so little of quality on most tv networks.

The silly thing is - I am not advocating a return to Lawrence Welk - and I am a true lefty (with respect for many conservative points of view) - but in a postmodern world where every voice supposedly is equally worthy of audience, standards of excellence appeared to be tossed out the window.

It appears to me, when market forces are used to set social and political policy, standards of every sort are compromised in the pursuit of profit.

True to a degree. It's your job as a parent to guide your child through the world, with all its ugliness. Cultural attitudes are the sum total of individual attitudes. Yes, kids are bombarded with horrible messages and pitches, but that means that you as a parent just have to work harder. Values and morals are taught over time. Parents just don't care what their kids are doing or watching, how they are dressing or whom they are chatting with online, etc. Young kids are out until all hours of the night! I'm all for boycotting companies that target kids. But the pressure kids are getting regarding performing these acts is coming from their peers, not the media. Media pushes sex in general terms, not this kind of specific message, unless the kids are watching porn. The book 'Rainbow Party' was written about the phenomenon that was already underway. I'm assuming everyone knows what a rainbow party is - just google it if you don't. I was in shock when I found out about it.

Victor, I agree with you - effective parents know what their kids are up to. But parents are also individuals who are themselves being judged by their material success - not their parenting skills. Those who want the esteem (and/or envy) of others often assume that having more stuff is the way to establish one's credentials as a successful person.

There is little emphasis on integrity as the measure of success, or virtue, or self-control.

So parents are also influenced by social forces. The media of course, is only interested in generating revenue - either through ads or via the product produced. Ad revenue is generated by the size of viewship or readership - so standards slide - primarily to attract the young male audience - an audience not known for discretion. Instead, movies are more about special effects than character development - and too often they appeal to the baser emotions.

I show a rather interesting documentary called "Wrestling with Manhood" which shows modern TV wrestling, promoted as "entertainment." Of course, the "entertainment" involves men apparently hitting women, physically attacking women, belittliing and humiliating women and men. But it's only entertainment, right?

Although a leftie, I do agree with the statement, "when anything goes, everything goes."
What an old fogie I am!

I think you give a bit too much weight to the influence of peer pressure and media on ADULTS regarding their roles as parents. Are you really saying that we would have more responsible parents if being a good parent made us the envy of others??? That's way too much of a stretch for me. Many, if not most, parents don't even have time for media anymore. TV and movie viewership has been on a downward trend for years now. One major problem is the two working spouse household. They are too exhausted and preoccupied to take the necessary time to be part of their kids' lives.

And why are both parents working? Could it be to get the money to buy the stuff that indicates membership in the middle class?

Possibly. But maybe also to afford the mortgage, taxes, medical, home, auto, life insurances, college fund, care for a parent, car payment, etc. Some of that may be 'discretionary', but much isn't. I don't believe the choice is bad parent vs. living a spartan life. There are good and bad parents in every socio-economic class. One may influence the other, but there is certainly no causal relationship. Unfortunately, there are just lots of parents, in all classes, who either just don't care enough or are unwilling to impose any discipline whatsoever and do not provide moral direction. I believe the latter is the bigger problem by far.

I know plenty of stay at home moms that let their kids get away with murder.

My neighbor's family is deep in debt. The kids have every brand new (wii and x box 360, etc.) electronic game, swimming pool with so many toys, they don't all fit in the pool. Each kid has his own quad and motorbike. The mother complains that they are failing school. The middle kid wants to drop out because his uncle did and he is making a great living as a plumber. They won't take away privliges until grades improve. They think it's being cruel. (!?)

The neighbor on the other side has two girls, 12 and 16. The girls come and go and have guests at all hours of the night when the parents are at home. I don't know them well enough to ask. I don't understand either neighbor.

Harper

Unfortunately, THEY are the rule, not the exception.

That's what my DH says... I can't look. Just can't deal with it. You know the old expression, "If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"? I'm trying hard not to pay attention... It's not working.

Interesting to read Victor and Seandor wrestle with individual vs collective responsibility. I think it's both. I would bet on the results of good parenting over good societal norms. But as we will never have all parents possessing good parenting skills, good norms would help compensate for the weak links.

Seandor, As I am always telling my mother, there is a big difference between being liberal and being permissive. And I think it's real important to seperate the two, because it is part of why the "L" word has gotten such a bad name.
I don't like gratuitous sex and violence. I think we should better protect children from the barrage of messages they receive. I think many parents spend too much money on, and too little time with, their kids. I think more parents should act like parents and not try to be "friends" with their kids.
But none of that keeps me from being liberal.

I did not say it's either / or. But we have control over our own lives - we can't control society, though we can fight to 'save' it. I don't consider myself a liberal, (in the middle in general, I take each issue individually) but like you guys, many of my friends who are do not like the way society is going downhill.

By the way, timely news piece - regarding the sick practice common among young people (providing a 'service') - new report says that the incidence of throat cancers goes up dramatically with increased frequency of this practice. Hopefully, this will serve as a deterrent. I'm not holding my breath though.

Dave, I knew there was a reason I liked you. amen.

There seems to be an epidemic of 'cool' parents. Not to mention a rash of teachers preying on kids. Who's left to care for and protect them? My son is probably the only boy in his class that does not have an Xbox or Wii or any other game player. He's only second grade! Quite a few of his classmates have cell phones already. Sue there is a safety aspect, but that's a bit much. A couple had them in first grade. One kid got a call in religious instruction class (on Saturdays) from his Dad asking if he was done yet!! Apples, trees, etc.

Dave - how often do you tell parents in your counseling that they are not being good parents?

Dave, Victor, Seandor, Gram.... I knew there was a reason I hang around here. I like you ALL!! It's very nice to hear that there are still some people around with their priorities straight. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I am sooo lazy, that I wanted to give my children every reason to grow up and move out. No computers in the bedroom, no tvs or cell phones, or ipods or whatever. They had to eat nourishing food - or go without. (no empty calories at our house!) So ever incentive to grow up and move away!

I am a total drag as a parent - but both my girls are alive, and well, healthy, and responsible.

One difference may be that neither my husband nor I were beneficiaries of a permissive, middle class childhood. In fact, neither of us would wish our childhoods on anyone. Both of us were earning our keep by age 13. I had to pay for all my clothing and school supplies at that age. We both grew up very fast. DH left home when he was 17, I left home when I was 16 - and worked my way through high school. At the time, I thought nothing of it, but now I realize how odd that is . . . most kids at the time would have become street urchins.

Anyway, both of us have been working hard since our early teens, and thus far, it hasn't killed us. We are very cautious people when it comes to money - so unlikely to leave a huge fortune to the kids - that takes a stronger stomach for financial risk than I can bear.

I like your distinction between being liberal and permissive, Dave47.

Ditto.

I do too - unfortunately there are many in this country for whom there is no such distinction. Thanks Harper - it's nice to see my wife and I are not alone.

This message was edited May 10, 2007 4:30 PM

Victor, A lot but I try to say it a little more tactfully. Ironically, I'm less skeptical than what some of you may be. I do see a lot of people working hard and struggleing to do the right thing. I also see kids who are wonderfully mature and great volunteers. And they make great decisions, not because they are afraid of adults and getting caught, but because they "get it"


But in general doing therapy has changed dramatically. But 30 years ago the work mainly consisted of helping people overcome guilt and trying to get parents to communicate with kids. Most of the work today is trying to set limits and boundaries. To get parents to not negotiate as equals with kids.

Right! Families should be benigned dictatorships. I remember my eldest trying to blackmail me with good behaviour, e.g. I will be good if I get . . . I let her know that good behaviour was expected - nothing else was acceptable, and it was non-negotiable.

I agree with you Dave47, I also suspect much of what we fear is a moral panic.

The young adults I encounter may be privileged, but they are not, for the most part, mean-spirited.

Children with a strong sense of self and their personal right and need to set boundaries are less likely to get caught up with the less savory side of life.

Of course there are many good kids and families. I just believe their relative numbers are decreasing, unfortunately. Today in the news somewhere in the Hudson Valley Region three sixth-graders, two boys and one girl were caught threatening to 'slice up' another boy was was now seeing a girl who used to see one of the boys. They all had cutters in their possession. This was absolutely unheard of when I was that age. Also, a retired teacher I hike with is tutoring two eighth graders from our district who were expelled. One for dealing Ecstasy in school. The other for 'inappropriate touching'. She said this kid stares at her breasts the entire session and creeps her out. Now maybe these are isolated cases, but we're hearing this kind of thing from younger and younger kids with greater frequency these days. Gang recruiting is well underway at about fifth grade now. Wish I was more optimistic. You just hope that by the time your kid is confronted with this garbage, they will have the wisdom, courage and moral compass to deal with it.

I hope so too, Victor :-)

My Psych friend also told me the other day that the % of HS students with at least one STD is now 25%, and rising. Scary. But we just have to do our best and see what happens. I am generally an optimistic person, the recent posts notwithstanding!

Here are the positives I've noticed:
Many guys are much more aware of their feelings and confident enough to express them.
The young people that are responsible(certainly not all) respect authority instead of fear it.
Young people are much more responsible about drinking & driving. Designated drivers are common. Also, more "cool" kids chose not to use without it being a big deal.

Thank you .

Great to hear Dave. Let's hope this continues. Obviously, as with anything else, we tend to hear the bad news.

I am concerned, but just trying to be balanced.

Dave, it's good the hear the positives as well. I know there are good people trying hard to do the right thing and raise their children well in a crazy world. I know some of them. But I know and hear of more who go the other way, too.

I have a niece who was raised in a home where there were moral values, but no discipline and no good role models. She is very bright and was determined to be an RN. Halfway thru nursing school she showed up at my doorstep with her clothes in a garbage bag and said she couldn't live at home any more. So we let her move in. She drove us crazy and set the kitchen on fire (careless, not malicious). We had rules..put her on a budget, took her paycheck and taught her how to pay her bills on time. When she graduated and got a job, we found her an apartment and kicked her out LOL I love this kid like she was my own daughter from the time she born.

She got pregnant with a guy she was NOT in love with (you would think a nurse could have avoided this trap, but if you play you have to pay). She's practical, though. Said she needed his help with the baby. So she let him move in, but didn't marry him. Her daughter is now 7. She works 3 12-hr shifts so she has the rest of the week free (the child's father is with her). She is the Girl Scout troop leader, takes her daughter to dancing lessons, volunteers at the school, is very active in the PTA. I am very proud of the time she spends raising her daughter. She has also bought a house (they moved very frequently when she was a child). Trying very hard not to make the mistakes she saw her mother make.

Great example of all the possibilities / consequences, gram. Lucky for her she had you!!

There are definitely many paths to get where you want to go. Sounds a lot like my 33 yr old. His daughter is 5. They were never in love. Yet they have worked and worked to raise that girl together. I give your neice and my foster son a lot of credit. I wouldn't have drawn the plans that way, but he is responsible and a caring & conscientous father.

Very true. The bottom line is...the bottom line.

Yep.

Yep.

Yup.

Right!