Fascinating discussion Victor, Seandor and Dave. I'm listening with ears wide open.
The Storm of the Century
Victor, We seem to agree. Corporations are under pressure to make profit NOW. My friend worked at a decent company (Waring) that tried like heck to keep their production here. They eventually went overseas or would have died. But that is why there is a role for government. Because even companies that want to do the right thing can't.
Yes, but in this area (keeping mfg jobs here), there is not much the gov can do. It's a structural change. Bottom line is that workers have to keep learning new skills and education is more important than ever. Then they can fill the higher skill positions that do remain here. Workers are now competing with people from all over the world. Despite empty, pandering promises from politicians, they can't do anything to 'shield' workers from this reality.
Ah, a free trader! I'm not sure how I feel on that one. Some of these "free"-trade agreements (like with China) seem to put us at a disadvantage. On the other hand, I would agree that the world is "flat" and much of this is inevitable.
Yes and no. Free trade is fine when the playing field is level. It usually isn't. I am just a pragmatist. Free trade agreements were made and the global economy was born in the 90's. Wishing it away will not change anything. Actually, I don't believe we have a free trade agreement with China. In fact we recently slapped tariffs on some of their products. There should be standards met in countries we make agreements with. Environmental, labor and others.
I think an important part of the problem is how we measure things. For instance, most of us assume that economic growth is not only good, but necessary. But GDP only measures exchanges of money. By that criteria, Hurricane Katrina is an economic good.
The UN has another measure - based on quality of life for the majority of citizens. Currently, the best place in the world to live is Norway. The criteria include: health care services, education levels, gender equality, childhood poverty, standards of housing, employment conditions, longevity, etc.
For many years in the early 1990s, Canada was number 1. But it has dropped to 5 or 6th place because of the issue of child poverty, which became a new criteria (and an important one) in the mid-1990s.
Norway enjoys a high quality of life because government can be relied to usually do the right thing with tax funds - use them to improve the lives of citizens. Citizens, typically, have a collective, "we are all in this together" attitude. Consequently, it is easier to convince citizens to pay higher rates of taxes to educate the neighbours kids, unlike my parents who voted "no" on an initiative to improve local schools, "cause my kids are all grown."
Which gets us back to Victor's comment - if the citizens are convinced the government cannot be trusted with our money - isn't it time to get another government?
I think an advantage of the parliamentary system, is that the leader of the nation must face the legislators in "Question Period" where members of the parliament can ask the ruling party to explain their policies. Having an official opposition party helps. Also, the fact that a government does not have license to rule for X number of years, but can be brought down by a vote of non-confidence may help minimize corruption (a teensy bit).
What we do know in the US is (1) where seats are hotly contested, (2) where there is large voter turn-out, and (3) where it is feasible for an incumbent to lose their seat, there is significantly less corruption. The opposite is true - when an incumbent is unlikely to lose their seat, where there is low voter turn-out, corruption is more likely.
As to issues of laziness, I must tell you, my experience is that my students are polite, well-mannered, and haven't a clue for the most part what hard work entails.
Most foreign instructors find they must rethink the standards of excellence. this is because so many more Americans attend college - many of whom would not be in university in countries where university is reserved for a scholarly education. Many, if not most, of my students see college as a rite of passage - and the key to a good job. But the pursuit of knowledge? Not now, thanks, I have a social life to attend to.
Who can blame them? the world is filled with fun and exciting diversions, why study boring economics, or history, or Shakespear (all of which a geek like me thinks are terrific subjects!)
This term I was fortunate enough to teach two athletes. One a professional hockey player who needs to pick up just one course to complete his degree. The other a criminal justice student who is on the football team. The hockey player is 26 years old and is keen to complete the degree. A very competent student. The football player was in my research methods class (nobody's favourite!) but I told him to do what he loves. I am pretty sure he thought I was nuts.
I helped him download data from the Uniform Crime Reports for 2004 - he did a research paper comparing crime stats for the three Sundays before the Super Bowl, the day of the Super Bowl and the three Sundays after the Super Bowl, comparing regions by time zones. He was stunned to find out he wrote a 23 page paper - and he actually enjoyed it!
The problem is - too many students assume they are (1) entitled to good grades, and (2) are justified in not working hard if they do not like the subject.
This attitude, I suspect transfers to the workplace.
Sorry for the long post . . . :-)
Well, I for one enjoyed your post. I work in a rural tech high school and I find that many kids are just not at all curious about life and have no idea how enjoyable learning is. They say, "Why do I need to learn biology?" I told one student passionately all the exciting reasons to study biology. But he didn't bite. So I finally told him, "So you can date a biology major!" Guess I figured out the social thing.
Wow - you are brave! I would never have the patience to teach high school. Thank goodness for people like you. Teachers in the public school system are highly undervalued, given their REAL contribution to society.
I enjoyed your post too Seandor. I'm sad to say that my observation about american kids (in general) is the same as yours. I'm proud to say that my very own son is nowhere near the norm. He hates school, but he loves learning. I think the primary reason he hates school is because of the mentality of his peers.
Boojum, LOL
Harper
I LOATHED high school. . . . but I loved university. :-) But then, I love learning the way "normal" people love down-hill skiing. God, I'm such a geek . . .
On the contrary, Seandor, I adored my high school, didn't care much about college, but I loved grad school; I would go over and over getting Masters degrees all over Boston if it were free. And my kids, sadly, are keen neither on the environment nor learning for its own sake. (This am the washer repair guy was here, but by his accent, he was more of a bloke, so that accounts for the accent I'm writing with today.) (!)
xxxxx, Carrie
There is a very witty Canadian songwriter and singer, I believe her name is Margaret White - anyway, she wrote a song called, "Daughers of Feminists" - which bemoans the fact that her daughter only wants to do girly things like wear pink and play with Barbies, etc. It is a very funny song.
I don't think you can blame the kids. They are overindulged. But, in a community like mine there is constant pressure to achieve, they are tested to death (CT Mastery tests, another state test, No Child left behind test) Teachers's are forced to teach to the test to raise the town's scores relative to other towns. It all becomes very rote and pressurized. Grades are inflated. Some teachers stopped caring 10 years ago, etc.
Still, a lot of kids take it very seriously. I think kids love classes where the teacher obviously loves what they teach.
No #%$#, the grades are inflated! Every year I have at least one first-year student in my office either in tears or totally distraught - and confused. How can I be an "A" student in high school, and now I am barely caring a B- ???? And doubtless many more are thinking the same thing.
Many students come to college totally unprepared for the level of academic maturity required to be successful. Unlike high school, most of the learning takes place OUTSIDE the classroom. Students really are expected to spend six hours each week learning the course material - for each course. That doesn't leave a lot of time for working and social life. It can be done - but students need the maturity to prioritize.
Many, many students would benefit from taking a couple of years off after high school, working or doing volunteer work. It would give them time to mature a bit, and also, to make a complete break with high school.
By sending kids to college who are ill equipped to handle the work, well-intended parents set their sons and daughters up for failure. Most of these kids could easily handle the work - they just need some maturity.
Fifty years ago, many of these kids would have passed directly into the labour force and would never attended college. But credentialization has made a batchelor's degree manditory for many entry level jobs. And the jobs that used to require an undergrad degree, now require a Master's. I sure hope they don't invent a degree beyond the PhD!
All so true!
Here, here! (or is it, "hear, hear!")
I went to art college. You'll have to excuse my lack of an education.
That is sooooo cool to go to art college! someday, when I actually earn enough income that I do not have to teach extra courses, I am going to audit all those courses I wish I had had an opportunity to take while getting my degrees. Cultural capital is very important (e.g. understanding art, literature, mythology, history, etc.).
So never denigrate your education. Thank God for artists and those who appreciate art.
In the film Contact, (based on a book by Carl Sagan) the Jody Foster character (a radio astronomer) is sent on an expedition to experience contact with other intelligent beings - only to realize that only a poet would know the words to describe the experience. Artists allow us to transcend our limitations in experiencing our world.
Re: Grade inflation. The rumor is that students at Yale expect to get all A's regardless of the level of their performance in class - after all they made Yale didn't they? Our current president is a Yale grad. I rest my case for grade inflation.
My understanding is that Cheney, Bush, and Kerry were all C to C+ students as undergrads.
This stands to reason. Most people are "normal" - that is average. Average is between a C- and a B- I tell my students that if their marks are in this range, they are in very good company and can aspire to the highest office in the land :-)
Well, Seandor, I have to say, I am sadly disappointed in the art schools lately, particularly the one I went to. I needed to learn skills, not how to purge my soul for a form of expression never been done before in the history of art. I do plenty of soul purging in my life already. They just wanted to teach 'new and different' and forgot how to teach the skill how to get there. I still want to take more classes. The art history classes were brilliant. In hindsight, I wish I had taken a few years off after high school to mature, like you said. College was just a whirl of emotions and a lot of money lost. I'm ready to study again now that I've lived some.
I'm totally grateful that there are people out there that still value art and culture. Even still, it's impossible to make a living as an artist in this economy.
Hey, maybe if those politicians were in school today, they would've gotten straight A's. Funny Seandor.
I was an artist most of my life. Finally started another career so I wasn't poor. But it is who I am and I bring it into the way I help students every day. I also was disappointed in my art training. And that was 1969. Only a handful of artists ever do anything new. Most are needed for more traditional work.
Yup. Being an artist is in my blood, but I gotta make a living. So I have a job designing carpets.
Gardening brings out the artistic side in all of us.
I tell DH I am making a poem in the landscape :-)
Oh, that's perfect, Seandor!
~ a musician, music teacher, maker, etc.
x, C
For me it's sculpture.
watercolor here. my art prof in college tried to get me to change my major but I stuck with information science. I knew I could make a good living in computers (and I have). my art is for me.
All of the above for me. I like to appeal to all five senses. Love to work with color, texture, movement, different sizes, shapes, foliage - not just flowers, vertical & horizontal, etc.
Well, DH is a poet. He understands when I want to remove a plant and replace it with another ONLY when I compare it to changing a line in a poem to improve it!
But truly, it does feel like creating poetry - I tell my students there are worse ways to spend one's life than creating beauty - even if the beauty is just this one little quarter acre of the planet.
Seandor,
Definitely much worse ways to spend your life. [My ex-husband springs to mind.]
xxx, Carrie
Yes, gardening is definitely art.
I had an Uncle Art.
Did he have the same sickness as you? Family thing?
Well, he died. And I'm beginning to think that runs in the family!
I've heard death does in fact, run in families.
I had a boss named Art, and he had no art in his soul at all. wasn't a bad boss, though. probably should have been named Mike. he was in his 50's when I worked with him, still single, living at home, and mom packed his lunch for him every day. she still called him Skip from his childhood nickname.
Death does tend to run in families. In fact I believe that for many, merely being born is a death sentence, that the act of being alive does tend to imply that death will inevitably follow.
Is this religious? I don't think we're supposed to talk about religion.
xxx, Carrie
I dunno Carrie. Even atheists and existentialists believe in death. I think it's safe to continue. Plus, you're keeping me amused.
Very uplifting on this nice Spring day, Carrie! I think it may be time to kill this thread. I can't imagine how it must be for the poor dial-ups.
Before this thread dies, let me make a point to thank you all for your wit & wisdom. I've really enjoy our conversations, silly & serious.
Thanks!
Dave