New AV characteristics to PlantFiles - input please!

let me expose my ignorance for a moment (LOL) and could you hyperlink me to the files, critter or snowrose???

Betty, click on the "PlantFiles" link at the top of the page (one of the white tabs). You'll see a green box marked "click here to search for plants" -- click it. Type in "african violet" in the first box marked "common name," and if you're looking for a particular named violet, type its name into the cultivar box. Then click the "search" button at the bottom, and take a look at what comes up.... click on any of the search results to see the PF page for it.

Here's the PF page for african violet in general... this would be the best place to upload photos of especially pretty noids... http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/738/index.html

Does that answer your question? :-)

You are just too nice, critter....you realize that these silly Av's are the reason I haven't sent your seeds yet, but I promise when my company leaves this week....she has been here since Saturday and leaving on Wednesday....so I will keep this thread and upload when she leaves...thanks again

Well I think that having all of the characteristics of the AVs are very important and I like the way the list is going to help identify the AVs in more detail. If others think that is too much for them to do, then just don't add them or add only the details that you know. The other details will get added sooner or later. I have added over 600 AVs to the PlantFiles (I'm not saying this to brag on myself) and I am really excited about adding the new characteristics not only to the new ones but I am also glad that we can go back and add the details to the ones that have already been added. I said right from the beginning that I would be willing to do that and I have no problem at all with adding the new characteristics to the ones that have all ready been added. I can hardly wait for the new details to be added so I can get to work on adding the new details to the PlantFiles.

Jesse

OK, I think this is a summary of where we're at so far. Please let me know what I missed that definitely needs to be included, or if I've included things that are unnecessary or redundant. Thanks!

Fower Characteristics:

Single
Double
Semi-double

Pansy
Bell
Fringed
Star
Wasp

Multicolor
Chimera
Fantasy
Edged
Bicolor

Leaf Type/Shape:
Ovate
Round
Pointed
Supreme
Compound (is this the same as bustled?)
Girl
Holly
Longifolia
Spooned
Bustled
Clackamus
Quilted
Ruffled
Serrated
Scalloped

Leaf Texture:
Glossy/shiny
hairy/fuzzy
pebbled
velvet

Leaf Color (check all that apply):
Red Back / Red Reverse
Variegated edge (Tommy-Lou variegation)
Crown Variegation (Champion variegation)
Mosaic Variegation
Chimera variegation
Variegation includes white/cream
Variegation includes tan/gold
Variegation includes pink

So this doesn't get too confusing, let's try to nail down the above first.... and next I'll post a summary of propagation and seed collection info -- I think the latter still needs work, and I don't know much about growing AVs from seed.

PLEASE POST to say yea or nay to the above list, or to suggest changes/additions. Thanks!

This message was edited Mar 27, 2007 6:07 PM

Yea

Jesse

I second that Yea : )
Nancy

Critter and Jesse - one thought. Chimera foliage such as 'Harmony's Little Stinker' and some of Rob's hybrids are not necessarily a chimera flower, but the foliage is considered Chimera.

Good point Begoniacrazii. I never even gave that a thought.Buts thats very important to include.

We can add "chimera" under foliage characterstics, too.... I'll go up and edit that list to make it so.

Thanks! That's just the sort of feedback we need to make sure this will work out well.

:-)

OK, I thought "chimera" might fit with the other types of variegation... if not, just let me know where it should go for foliage description.

Yea!

I did not know that chimeras had a special type of foliage. I guess that is because I've never seen or had one.

Jesse

Just like the bloom can be chimera (have 2 genetically distinct tissues in it), the foliage can be the same way. Foliage chimeras can have ordinary looking flowers, and AVs with chimera blooms can have ordinary leaves. I think 'Rob's Lucky Penny' is a foliage chimera, check it out: http://www.robsviolet.com/miniature_chimeras.htm. The advantage of chimeric foliage (I believe) is that the variegation is very stable and doesn't vary with temperature and other cultural conditions.

Yea

Here's the laundry list of all the current details in a general PlantFiles entry form:

Category:

Alpines and Rock Gardens
Annuals
Biennials
Bulbs
Edible Fruits and Nuts
Vegetables
Groundcovers
Herbs
Ornamental Grasses and Bamboo
Perennials
Ponds and Aquatics
Shrubs
Trees
Tropicals/Tender Perennials
Vines and Climbers
Cactus and Succulents
Ferns
Palms
Cycads
Conifers
Carnivorous and Insectivorous
Epiphytes
Parasites and Hemiparasites

Height:

under 6 in. (15 cm)
6-12 in. (15-30 cm)
12-18 in. (30-45 cm)
18-24 in. (45-60 cm)
24-36 in. (60-90 cm)
36-48 in. (90-120 cm)
4-6 ft. (1.2-1.8 m)
6-8 ft. (1.8-2.4 m)
8-10 ft. (2.4-3 m)
10-12 ft. (3-3.6 m)
12-15 ft. (3.6-4.7 m)
15-20 ft. (4.7-6 m)
20-30 ft. (6-9 m)
30-40 ft. (9-12 m)
over 40 ft. (12 m)

Spacing:

3-6 in. (7-15 cm)
6-9 in. (15-22 cm)
9-12 in. (22-30 cm)
12-15 in. (30-38 cm)
15-18 in. (38-45 cm)
18-24 in. (45-60 cm)
24-36 in. (60-90 cm)
36-48 in. (90-120 cm)
4-6 ft. (1.2-1.8 m)
6-8 ft. (1.8-2.4 m)
8-10 ft. (2.4-3 m)
10-12 ft. (3-3.6 m)
12-15 ft. (3.6-4.7 m)
15-20 ft. (4.7-6 m)
20-30 ft. (6-9 m)
30-40 ft. (9-12 m)
over 40 ft. (12 m)

Hardiness:

USDA Zone 1: below -45.6° C (-55° F)
USDA Zone 2a: to -45.5° C (-50° F)
USDA Zone 2b: to -42.7° C (-45° F)
USDA Zone 3a: to -39.9° C (-40° F)
USDA Zone 3b: to -37.2° C (-35° F)
USDA Zone 4a: to -34.4° C (-30° F)
USDA Zone 4b: to -31.6° C (-25° F)
USDA Zone 5a: to -28.8° C (-20° F)
USDA Zone 5b: to -26.1° C (-15° F)
USDA Zone 6a: to -23.3° C (-10° F)
USDA Zone 6b: to -20.5° C (-5° F)
USDA Zone 7a: to -17.7° C (0° F)
USDA Zone 7b: to -14.9° C (5° F)
USDA Zone 8a: to -12.2° C (10° F)
USDA Zone 8b: to -9.4° C (15° F)
USDA Zone 9a: to -6.6° C (20° F)
USDA Zone 9b: to -3.8° C (25° F)
USDA Zone 10a: to -1.1° C (30° F)
USDA Zone 10b: to 1.7° C (35° F)
USDA Zone 11: above 4.5° C (40° F)
Not Applicable

Sun Exposure:

Full Sun
Sun to Partial Shade
Light Shade
Partial to Full Shade
Full Shade

Danger:

Seed is poisonous if ingested
Parts of plant are poisonous if ingested
All parts of plant are poisonous if ingested
Handling plant may cause skin irritation or allergic reaction
Plant has spines or sharp edges; use extreme caution when handling
Pollen may cause allergic reaction
N/A

Bloom Color:

Pale Pink
Pink
Rose/Mauve
Magenta (Pink-Purple)
Fuchsia (Red-Purple)
Red
Scarlet (Dark Red)
Coral/Apricot
Orange
Red-Orange
Gold (Yellow-Orange)
Pale Yellow
Bright Yellow
Chartreuse (Yellow-Green)
Pale Green
Green
Light Blue
Medium Blue
Dark Blue
Blue-Violet
Violet/Lavender
Purple
Dark Purple/Black
Maroon (Purple-Brown)
Brown/Bronze
White/Near White
Cream/Tan
Silver/Gray
Inconspicuous/none

Bloom Time:

Late Winter/Early Spring
Mid Spring
Late Spring/Early Summer
Mid Summer
Late Summer/Early Fall
Mid Fall
Late Fall/Early Winter
Mid Winter
Blooms all year
Blooms repeatedly
N/A

Foliage:

Grown for foliage
Evergreen
Deciduous
Herbaceous
Variegated
Silver/Gray
Blue-Green
Chartreuse/Yellow
Burgundy
Dark/Black
Bronze-Green
Aromatic
Smooth-Textured
Velvet/Fuzzy-Textured
Shiny/Glossy-Textured
Mottled
Veined
Good Fall Color
Succulent
Rubbery-Textured
Leathery-Textured

Other details:

May be a noxious weed or invasive
This plant is attractive to bees, butterflies and/or birds
Flowers are fragrant
This plant is suitable for growing indoors
Drought-tolerant; suitable for xeriscaping
Average Water Needs; Water regularly; do not overwater
Requires consistently moist soil; do not let dry out between waterings
Very high moisture needs; suitable for bogs and water gardens
Self-sows freely; deadhead if you do not want volunteer seedlings next season
This plant may be considered a protected species; check before digging or gathering seeds
This plant is monocarpic
This plant is fire-retardant
This plant is resistant to deer
Flowers are good for cutting
Flowers are good for drying and preserving
Provides winter interest
Suitable for growing in containers

Soil pH requirements:

4.5 or below (very acidic)
4.6 to 5.0 (highly acidic)
5.1 to 5.5 (strongly acidic)
5.6 to 6.0 (acidic)
6.1 to 6.5 (mildly acidic)
6.6 to 7.5 (neutral)
7.6 to 7.8 (mildly alkaline)
7.9 to 8.5 (alkaline)
8.6 to 9.0 (strongly alkaline)
over 9.1 (very alkaline)

Propagation Methods:

By dividing the rootball
By dividing rhizomes, tubers, corms or bulbs (including offsets)
By dividing the bulb's scales
By scoring the base of the bulb to promote new bulblets
From leaf cuttings
From herbaceous stem cuttings
From woody stem cuttings
From softwood cuttings
From semi-hardwood cuttings
From hardwood cuttings
From hardwood heel cuttings
Allow cut surface to callous over before planting
From seed; direct sow outdoors in fall
From seed; winter sow in vented containers, coldframe or unheated greenhouse
From seed; stratify if sowing indoors
Direct sow as soon as the ground can be worked
From seed; sow indoors before last frost
From seed; direct sow after last frost
From seed; germinate in a damp paper towel
From seed; germinate in vitro in gelatin, agar or other medium
Scarify seed before sowing
By grafting
By budding
By simple layering
By air layering
By tip layering
By serpentine layering
By stooling or mound layering
Plant is viviparous
From spores
From bulbils

Seed Collecting:

Bag seedheads to capture ripening seed
Collect seedhead/pod when flowers fade; allow to dry
Allow pods to dry on plant; break open to collect seeds
Allow seedheads to dry on plants; remove and collect seeds
Remove fleshy coating on seeds before storing
Allow unblemished fruit to ripen; clean and dry seeds
Unblemished fruit must be significantly overripe before harvesting seed; clean and dry seeds
Ferment seeds before storing
Wear gloves to protect hands when handling seeds
Properly cleaned, seed can be successfully stored
Seed does not store well; sow as soon as possible
N/A: plant does not set seed, flowers are sterile, or plants will not come true from seed

Thanks, Terry, that's a help!

Are we just using the standard bloom color list for AVs? That might be easier than getting into tailoring it, and that would make the list familiar to people who use PF for other plants.

There are some significant plus-es to leaving it as-is (all existing checkboxes for color would remain checked off, and it's familiar to most PF users.) I'm fine with leaving any category that should be maintained as-is, and dropping those that don't make much sense for AVs, and replacing those that need to be more specialized.

That fits with my thoughts on the subject also. Let's leave well enough alone with that one!

OK... are we good to go with the checkbox lists above? http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=3326271

If so, let's move on to finalizing the propagation information...

Under "Seed Collecting," there are 3 checkboxes on the existing list that apply to AVs and pretty well cover everything, I think.

Allow pods to dry on plant; break open to collect seeds

Properly cleaned, seed can be successfully stored

N/A: plant does not set seed, flowers are sterile, or plants will not come true from seed

(I admit, I'm guessing that seed can be stored and doesn't have to be sown fresh... ??)

So, although there are a lot of boxes that don't apply, if the list contains ones that will work, then we don't mess with it -- right?

I think we do need to mess with the propagation checkbox list, however.

Propagating by sucker or bloom stalk cuttings aren't on the existing list, and they're the only way to propagate a chimera.

We discussed this above, and it seemed to be more clear when we organized it according to what methods worked for which kind of plants (hybrids, chimeras), so if we're replacing the list with a more specialized one, we could do it something like this:

choice A
Propagation:

May be propagated from seed
May be propagated by tissue culture
May be propagated by cuttings (leaf, sucker, or bloom stalk)
Hybrid, may not come true from seed
Chimera, may come true only from crown suckers or bloom stalk propagation

Or, we could put it just as a list of methods, but I think we will get many more errors this way...

choice B
Propagation Methods, check all that apply:
From seed
Tissue culture
From leaf cuttings
From rooting sucker cuttings
From bloom stalk cuttings

(I didn't include the peduncle cuttings that Jesse mentioned, because I hadn't heard of propagating AVs that way and couldn't turn anything up in a google search... is this a method that should be included?)

PLEASE POST again with feedback on the above.... or propose a choice C!


This message was edited Mar 27, 2007 11:40 PM

Here's what I'm hearing should be in the new AV form - compare this to the general form above. If it's not on this list, that means I'll disable it and it won't be shown when you are working on the details for any plants in the Gesneriaceae family. (Or should we limit his to Saintpaulias? I can do either the whole family or just the genus, but I really don't want to create a second one for other Gesneriads and try to carve out the AVs - that gets ugly.)

Height:

under 6 in. (15 cm)
6-12 in. (15-30 cm)
12-18 in. (30-45 cm)
18-24 in. (45-60 cm)
24-36 in. (60-90 cm)
36-48 in. (90-120 cm)
4-6 ft. (1.2-1.8 m)
6-8 ft. (1.8-2.4 m)
8-10 ft. (2.4-3 m)
10-12 ft. (3-3.6 m)
12-15 ft. (3.6-4.7 m)
15-20 ft. (4.7-6 m)
20-30 ft. (6-9 m)
30-40 ft. (9-12 m)
over 40 ft. (12 m)

Spacing:

3-6 in. (7-15 cm)
6-9 in. (15-22 cm)
9-12 in. (22-30 cm)
12-15 in. (30-38 cm)
15-18 in. (38-45 cm)
18-24 in. (45-60 cm)
24-36 in. (60-90 cm)
36-48 in. (90-120 cm)
4-6 ft. (1.2-1.8 m)
6-8 ft. (1.8-2.4 m)
8-10 ft. (2.4-3 m)
10-12 ft. (3-3.6 m)
12-15 ft. (3.6-4.7 m)
15-20 ft. (4.7-6 m)
20-30 ft. (6-9 m)
30-40 ft. (9-12 m)
over 40 ft. (12 m)

Flower Characteristics:

Single
Double
Semi-double
Pansy
Bell
Fringed
Star
Wasp
Multicolor
Chimera
Fantasy
Edged
Bicolor

Bloom Color:

Pale Pink
Pink
Rose/Mauve
Magenta (Pink-Purple)
Fuchsia (Red-Purple)
Red
Scarlet (Dark Red)
Coral/Apricot
Orange
Red-Orange
Gold (Yellow-Orange)
Pale Yellow
Bright Yellow
Chartreuse (Yellow-Green)
Pale Green
Green
Light Blue
Medium Blue
Dark Blue
Blue-Violet
Violet/Lavender
Purple
Dark Purple/Black
Maroon (Purple-Brown)
Brown/Bronze
White/Near White
Cream/Tan
Silver/Gray
Inconspicuous/none


Leaf Shape/Type:

Ovate
Round
Pointed
Supreme
Compound/bustle
Girl
Holly
Longifolia
Spooned
Bustled
Clackamus
Quilted
Ruffled
Serrated
Scalloped

Leaf Texture:
Glossy/shiny
Hairy/fuzzy
Pebbled
Velvet

Leaf Color:
Red Back / Red Reverse
Variegated edge (Tommy-Lou variegation)
Crown Variegation (Champion variegation)
Mosaic Variegation
Chimera variegation
Variegation includes white/cream
Variegation includes tan/gold
Variegation includes pink


Propagation Methods:
May be propagated from seed
May be propagated by tissue culture
May be propagated by cuttings (leaf, sucker, or bloom stalk)
Hybrid, may not come true from seed
Chimera, may come true only from crown suckers or bloom stalk propagation


Seed Collecting:

Bag seedheads to capture ripening seed
Collect seedhead/pod when flowers fade; allow to dry
Allow pods to dry on plant; break open to collect seeds
Allow seedheads to dry on plants; remove and collect seeds
Remove fleshy coating on seeds before storing
Allow unblemished fruit to ripen; clean and dry seeds
Unblemished fruit must be significantly overripe before harvesting seed; clean and dry seeds
Ferment seeds before storing
Wear gloves to protect hands when handling seeds
Properly cleaned, seed can be successfully stored
Seed does not store well; sow as soon as possible
N/A: plant does not set seed, flowers are sterile, or plants will not come true from seed

That looks good to me!

I do think the changes we're making apply to Saintpaulia species only... there are so many other gesnariads, and a lot of the AV-specific information wouldn't really work for them, I think.

There's one other change we talked about that I neglected in my summary above....

Instead of height and spacing information, can we replace this with size categories?

Plant Size or Type >
standard
large standard
small standard
semi-miniature
miniature
micro-miniature
trailer

Terry, thanks for staying with us on this and making it happen!

For the information we're disabling, would it be helpful to replace that with the details that describe all AVs?

For example from "other details" and "pH requirements"

This plant is suitable for growing indoors
Average Water Needs; Water regularly; do not overwater
Suitable for growing in containers
pH 6.1 to 6.5 (mildly acidic)

Or are we just figuring that AVs are well known as houseplants, so the above information would be pretty obvious & therefore unnecessary?

We *can* replace the height - but again, that necessitates going back through over 1400 entries to re-do that section in each entry. If most of the existing entries are incomplete anyway, it's not a big deal to make the change. But If most of them already have a height and width checked off, you need to weigh how much effort it will take to re-add that information - is it worth it?

Keep in mind: I can easily create new sections (that's the easy part.) But after I do, the onus falls on our members (you-all) to go back through and check off all the applicable boxes.

In general, when looking at the current form, versus a new form for AVs, we can do any of the following:

1) Leave in the other existing sections (as-is), if it's reasonable to assume future and current users will use the Advanced Search and look for an AV by its pH, water requirements, etc.

2) Replace those sections with new, streamlined sections with fewer details. (Pro: it's only the information that applies to AVs, so there's less likelihood of an error. Con: it means a lot more work to re-add that information to the existing entries - and if most people aren't going to search by these fields, that's a whole lot of work for 'nuthin.)

3) Leave them out if they aren't really how AVs are described, and/or if most AVs are pretty much consistent in terms of watering needs, sun/shade requirements, bloom time, and pH. (If there's wide variations, it might be wroth noting.)

If you don't want to delete the height/spacing info, I don't have a problem with that... but please do add a category for plant size/type, so that information can be included for new entries and added to existing files.

Similarly, I don't see any reason why the "other details" and "pH requirements" and "light requirements" sections can't stay in the new AV form. If we take out those checkbox lists to streamiline the page (because, as you noted, AVs are pretty consistant in terms of their requirements), I think we need to include the relevant details anyway (not as a checkbox, just as a list that automatically shows up on all AV entries).

It seems to me that the only field we need to delete for certain because of our additions is the old checklist for "foliage." Even if somebody checked "evergreen" or "variegated" or "fuzzy," I think the new info will be far more meaningful, so that field will be worth the work of re-working for existing varieties in PF.

In that case, I think the "other details" and "pH requirements" and "light requirements" sections should remain.

That's fine - I can leave those sections in, as-is. I'm waiting for any last-calls on changes. Are we ready to make the switch? Speak now, or hold your peace for a very long time!!!! (I won't say forever ;o)

So, we are adding sections for

Foliage description

Bloom description

Propagation

as summed up here, http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=3329329,


and we're also adding a section for

Plant size or type, see above post http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=3329418.


Right?

****

If anybody has suggestions regarding the above, as Terry said, this is the time to speak up. :-)

I'm glad we've had a lot of input on this, and I think the AV section of PF will be much improved!

I think that what you have listed above is great. But could you please tell me how to list the colors orchid and burgundy? I find them listed like that quite often and was not sure what boxes to check off.

Jesse

Jesse, that's a good question... Terry?

That's sticky. We came up with the list of colors you see in every entry a long time ago. It was designed to be thorough, without overwhelming. (If you've ever seen the RHS color chart, you'll know why we didn't adopt it. It's wonderfully comprehensive and precise, but it's also a mile long.) Expanding it now would take a lot of careful thought and planning (and require Dave's help, since I can't insert colors into the current lineup, but only tag them on to the end.)

I would say "orchid" falls under "lavender" and "burgundy" under "deep red/scarlet" or "maroon" - just depends on your personal take on the bloom color. For what it's worth, I've often rued the lack of "burgundy" myself ;o)

Thanks. So when are the new characteristics going to be added? I have stopped adding to the PlantFiles until we get the new details so that I will not have to do them all over again. But as soon as they are ready, please let me know.

Jesse

I think that burgundy is a color of its own and should be included in the list but that is just my opinion. It is a very pretty color I think.

Jesse

I realize that colors are all in the eye of the beholder, but, just out of curiosity....how do people see maroon as different from burgundy??? To me they are one and the same color....I would really like to know so that when I see a post and these two words are used, I want to know the difference....thanks

In my opinion I think that maroon is darker than burgundy. Maybe it has more black in it.

Jesse

Here's the new form: http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/738/live_view/

Thank you!!!

You're very welcome.

Two things:

1) Take a close look and make sure I didn't miss anything. (If we need to correct/add to it, now's the time to do so.)

2) When you view any existing Saintpaulia entry, it will probably not look correct just yet. (The system takes a while to completely refresh itself.) Scroll down until you see "Switch to live view" and click on that link - when you do, the entry will then apear with the new fields. (If you created the entry, you'll also then see the "set all details" link again ;o)