New AV characteristics to PlantFiles - input please!

Yea Jesse, the size needs to be there too!!

Debbie

Definitely!

:-)

"Super miniature" and/or "micro-miniature" aren't terms that AVSA recognizes, although growers use them. I don't think there's much disagreement about which AVs would qualify for "micro-mini" status -- we all know the truly teeny ones when we see them.

Could we also include "small standard" do you think?

I am VERY glad to see the discussion going on here. I know it delays getting the PF form set up by a few days, but I think the quality of the end result will be much better by giving time to hash these issues out.

I'm keeping a close eye on the thread, and when things wind down, and we have a final list of characteristics, I'll get it set up pronto ;o)

Did we ever come to a definite conclusion about how to handle propagation information?

I think we need a way to convey that named cultivars are hybrids that must be propagated vegetatively (leaf, sucker, or bloom stalk) to remain true to type, and chimeras will only be true to type if propagated from suckers (preferably crown suckers) or bloom stalks (propagation by leaf won't produce chimera offspring).

Thanks for your help with this, Terry... I'm glad to see discussion continuing, and I hope we can get it all sorted out this time.

Yes, I think that Micro Mini should be added also. I have seen those and they are the cutest little things. And I'm sure that all of us have some and we could all add them along with their details.

I did add that those by seeds would not come true to from seed when I gave Terry a set of how to propagate. According to the Optimara website, the following were listed:

Leaf cutting
Peduncle cutting
Tissue culture
Rooting a sucker
From seed, although the plants will not come true from seed

That was for AVs and I knew that Rooting a sucker is for chimeras but are chimeras propagated from any of the other ways listed? Actually I do not even know what some of those are but that is what Optimara had on their site.

Jesse

I know people also propagate from bloom stalks, and I think crown suckers and bloom stalks are the only ways I've seen for propagating a chimera AV. I don't think tissue culture would work for a chimera, which by definition is formed by a combination of two genetically distince tissues (that's why leaf cuttings don't work -- they most likely have only one of the tissues of the chimera).

I think I'd change the wording on "from seed" to say "named cultivars will not come true from seed." I assume species AVs would come true just fine.

Maybe propagation could be organized according to plant category rather than technique...

Saintpaulia species, may be propagated from seed or vegetatively.

Hybrid (named cultivar), will not come true from seed, propagate from leaf cutting, sucker cutting, bloom stalk, peduncle cutting, or by tissue culture.

(above could also say, more concisely, "propagate vegetatively, for example from a leaf cutting")

Chimera, will not come true from seed or leaf cutting, propagate from crown sucker or bloom stalk.


Does that cover the possibilities?

I think this might be a better way to present these checkboxes, as people are more likely to know if they have a named cultivar or a chimera rather than to know all the ways it can be propagated.

I'm skittish about trying to link only certain propagation techniques to specific genera. That gets a lot more specific and narrowly-defined than we've done any others. And hopefully I've explained that whenever we replace a "general" description area (such as the propagation techniques) with a genus- or family-specific description, it wipes out that detail that was added to existing entry. So the benefits of replacing flower color, foliage information or propagation techniques with new lists should be carefully considered against "starting from scratch" on all the affected entries.

Hybrids and Chimeras aren't genera-specific, but maybe I'm missing the point.

I've seen PF entries that say, "Hybrid, may not come true from seed," so I didn't think that was a new thing. Maybe instead of such long entries, we could use shorter ones... how about...

May be propagated from seed
May be propagated by tissue culture
May be propagated by cuttings (no need to get specific on what kind of cuttings when they all will work)
Hybrid, may not come true from seed
Chimera, may come true only from crown cuttings or bloom stalk propagation

Ahh that makes it very easy to understand Critter : )

I think the ones that you listed are great Critter. I just have one question. Can AVs be propagated from bloom stalks also? Or is that just for the chimeras? If they can then we need to add them also. I just want to make sure that we cover all of them.

My next question is this. After you specify that they can come from seeds, the next category on the PF questionnaire is How are the seeds collected? The only answer that I could think of is the last one, that says No, they will not come true from seed." That does not really apply since we do say that they can be propagated from seed. So how do you collect the seeds. Maybe we could add, (fill in how you collect) but Hybrid will not come true to seed."

Jesse

Yes, all AVs can be propagated from bloom stalks... but that's just another kind of cutting, and in the simplified list on my last post I didn't get specific about mentioning leaf cutting, rooted sucker, bloom stalk, etc. I think it might be easiest to just say "cutting" without specifying... there's certainly plenty of info on propagation over in the AV forum, and the stickies make it easy to find.

Could you point me to this PF questionnaire? That way we'll all be on the same page...

The question of how to collect seeds is different than the question of whether or not a given plant will come true from those seeds... For that question, I'd like to get input from somebody who has actually collected AV seeds... the answer is probably in a previous thread... I'm thinking it'll be something along the lines of "Allow seed pod to mature and turn brown before collecting the seeds."

Are some hybrids blossom-sterile or pollen-sterile? If so, we might include a checkboxes along the lines of:

Sterile, does not produce viable seed
and/or
Pollen sterile, cannot be used to produce viable seed

I think we need to get somebody like SarahClarinda to weigh in on what needs to be included in the propagation or seed collecting sections.

I did not mean it was a separate questionnaire. I was referring to all the the check boxes that you check off when listing a new plant in the PlantFiles. I'm sorry to confuse you with that. The one that asks how do you collect the seeds is the last one of the PlantFiles list of things to check off.

And I really do think that we should use the different propagation methods such as from sucker, from leaf cutting, and from bloom stalk. I think they are too different not to include them.

Jesse

Hey Terry,

I found this little bit of information that I thought might be helpful for people adding African Violets to the PlantFiles. I'm not sure where you would add it but it could really help, especially the last one. See what you think and maybe we could add a note at the beginning of the PlantFiles that says something like this.

"If you are adding African Violets to the PlantFiles, please read the following before you begin? And then give them a link to follow that they could read and then add their plants." Or it could say, "If you are adding an African Violet, please click here." And then have the information there.

1) Violets Which May Fit More Than One Color Classification

When searching by color, keep in mind that any interpretation of color is based on subjective perception. In many cases, the color classification of an African Violet will be representative of most everyone's perception. In other cases, however, an African Violet will not be so easily classified. For instance, an African Violet which has been classified as blue may, for some, appear more purple. Likewise, an African Violet which has been classified as pink may appear more red. As a consequence, you may need to check more than one color to find the Violet you are looking for.

2) Lilac and Burgundy Violets

Two specific instances of colors which do not fit neatly into the above classifications are lilac and burgundy. For the purposes of this guide, both lilac and burgundy Violets will be found under "Purple."

3) Note: Bi-Color Violets Which May Appear Entirely White

Keep in mind that many bi-color Violets are almost entirely white with just a little of another color. This is often the case with African Violets on which the second color appears only on the edge. Therefore, when searching by color, be sure that the white Violet you are looking for is not, in fact, bi-color.

I did not know that about the second color appearing only on the edge. I'm not sure what to do with this information but I felt it was important enough to let you all read it.

I know that all of this is probably going to be hard to set up and a lot of work for you Terry, not sure what Dave does on this, but once we get it all set up, it is going to be so awesome. I added a lot more plants last night but I know what they were and I can go back and edit them when it is finished.

There is only one thing that I would like to request, and maybe this is a DG question. If so just move it or scrap it. I would like for something to be changed on adding plants. You know how when you start adding a plant, that if anything has not been added yet, then there is a link to click on that says, "Set all details". If any information at all has been added, even the name, then that disappears and then you have to go through every single item and it takes forever. Can that be made to exist even if the name or a part of it has been added? It would save all of us a lot of time to be able to add all the information at once instead of having to click on every single item/detail. I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this. If not can you direct me?

Terry, I know you are getting really tired of me. I probably would be. But I just want the PlantFiles to be correct and also easy to do so that more people will add to them.

Thanks,
Jesse

Jesse, I don't know if we can do a customized message like that. It's a question for dave.

We definitely want PlantFiles to be as complete as possible - but we also have to weigh issues of precision and throroughness against the audience we serve, which is mainly "garden variety" gardeners (I include myself in that category) and we don't want to make any aspect of PlantFiles (or DG as a whole) so technical that it is offputting to those who aren't as experienced or knowledgeable. (Just a word of caution - because it's very easy and tempting to go overboard ;o)

Although that's useful information, I think most people know that color is a pretty subjective thing (and that colors in photos aren't always accurate)... It would be nice to include something like that, but I share Terry's concern about adding yet more to an increasingly long page of checkboxes etc.

I think I asked above if it's possible to put in a link to a site or a page with definitions of the different leaf shapes (again, it just seems like too much to include that information right on the PF entry page)... maybe we could do that and do something similar for color information?

We could even tack it on to the new resource sticky... a list of definitions and explanations of terms used in PF entries might be quite helpful there. ??

Okay, I understand that some people might find it too pushy if we told them to go to another page before they could add a plant. I had not thought about it from that point of view. I was thinking what I would do and did not consider how others would feel. Thanks for pointing that out to me. So when's the new additions going to be added?

Jesse

I do think it would be nice to include links to further information and definitions for those who may want/need them. It can also be intimidating to see a long list of checkboxes and have no idea what many of the terms mean (such as with the leaf shape descriptions).

I don't think we need to say "read this first," but I do think it would be fine to have a line like "for more informaiton, click here:" That makes the information available without making the process seem more complicated, I think. ??

Here is something that I found really interesting and informative. Maybe we could put a link to this or somehow put it on the site somewhere. I found it really helpful. http://www.avsa.org/LeafTypes.htm It even shows what the bustle back and pebbled leaves look like. I think people could learn a lot from this page.

Jesse

This message was edited Mar 25, 2007 8:41 PM

Jesse,I really love the idea of adding that link.It pretty much speaks for itself : )

I really learned so much by looking at those. The one that I did not know about was the one called pebbled. It looked so much different than I thought it would. And did you see the cute little bustle back one? It was so cute. I think we really do need to put that as a link somewhere to help everyone know what kind of AV they have.

Jesse

I loved that bustle back one too and I have a holly leafed plant(I lost the tag for) that I always wondered what the heck was wrong with the leaves?LOL Now I know they are supposed to look like that.Very informative page indeed.I always have learned faster with pictures than reading 3 pages of descriptions.Very foolproof method Jesse.I hope a link is put in plant files for it : )

Terry? How about it -- is it possible to put a link in PF for reference purposes? I know you don't like putting links to sites outside of DG into forum resource stickies, but I think it's a pretty good bet that a link to the AVSA site will be stable...

If someone wants to create a thread regarding that information, and include the link to AVSA, and any other helpful/useful sites, we can add the thread link to the resources thread. (I know it's a link-to-a-link, but it keeps our admins free from exeternal link-checking and maintenance.)

I failed to address an earlier question (sorry...I was skim-reading ;o)

1) If you create the PlantFiles entry, you retain full editing rights to it. You can click on "switch to live view" and edit the name and details. (If memory serves, the only thing you can't do is edit the synonyms.)

2) I *think* (going off memory again) if an entry is completely devoid of details (every checkbox says "unknown- tell us") anyone can "set all details" - again, click on "switch to live view" and I think you'll then see the entry with a link to set all details.

3) Once someone has started adding details, the "set all details" ability is restricted to editors. We do that because we had problems with members editing out one another's information, without explanation or an "audit trail" we could follow to see who made the changes, what they changed, or hear their rationale for the changes. As you can imagine, that led to some confusion and controversy; hence Dave tightened up on the "set all details" ability once some details have been added.

But on any entry, you can try clicking on "switch to live view" and see what you can edit ;o)

How about if we add these links in a post to the resources thread, and then put a link to the post in PF? That way, people can go right to the links with the terms and definitions, and if they want more information on AVs they can check the rest of the sticky for additional links (including links to Begoniacrazii's sticky).

Yes!! That sounds like that would work great Critter : )

Critter, are you suggesting adding a comment with that link to each variety's entry in PlantFiles? Or something else?

When you create a new entry in PlantFiles, the process begins the exactly the same way for every plant. Until you submit the plant's family, genus, species and cultivar information, the system has no way of detecting whether you're creating an entry for an african violet or a tree, cactus, rose, hosta, etc.

For that reason, there's no way to do a "read this before you create an entry" that would be unique to AVs.


Once you submit the name information, I'm still uncertain if it's practical or feasible to create a "read this before you enter details" just for AVs. It would be up to Dave to decide if it could be set up, and then we'd have to come up with some standards for maintaining it.

Once you submit the name information for a new entry, then you get a new page with the checkboxes for that particular type of plant, right? At that point, I thought such a link could be useful.

I'm not sure it's absolutely vital to include a link... a little effort would take people to the definitions or to the AV forum stickies... but I was thinking of a "For definitions of description details, click here:" might make those long lists of checkboxes a little less intimidating... Certainly I don't think it needs to be phrased as a "read first!"

We can ask Dave if it can be done - it's really his call, since it's a programming issue.

n the meantime, are we ready to load the new checkboxes? If so, can someone gather them up, present them for a final look-see, and we'll move forward with getting the new "form" in place!

Terry, could you please post a link where I could see all the currently available checkboxes? I'd like to be able to refer to them when checking to be sure we've covered everything... and the only way I can bring them all up seems to be by entering a plant that isn't yet in PF...

Thanks!

I can give you a list of the things that I check off and you can see if you think those are correct. That way it will make sure that I'm doing it right too.

Category: Tropicals/Tender Perennials
Height: 6-12 in. (15-30 cm)
Spacing: 6-9 in. (15-22 cm)
Hardiness: USDA Zone 10b: to 1.7° C (35° F)
USDA Zone 11: above 4.5° C (40° F)
Sun Exposure:
Sun to Partial Shade
Danger:
N/A
Bloom Color:
In this one I check both Pink and White
Bloom Time:
Blooms all year
Foliage:
In this one I checked both Evergreen and Variegated
Other Details:
This plant is suitable for growing indoors
Average Water Needs; Water regularly; do not overwater
Provides winter interest
Suitable for growing in containers
Soil pH Requirements:
5.6 to 6.0 (acidic)
6.1 to 6.5 (mildly acidic)
6.6 to 7.5 (neutral)
Propagation Methods:
By dividing the rootball
From leaf cuttings
Seed Collecting:
I leave all of those unchecked

These may not be the right answers and if not, someone please let me know. I just want to make sure I'm doing it right too. I know that there will be a lot more details to check when we get all the new stuff added but this is how I have been doing it with the items we have now.

Jesse

Thanks, Jesse.... but what I'd like to see is a list of all the options currently on the PF page for AVs.... I know there's a list of checkboxes for bloom color, don't know what they are specifically, and I'd like to know the wording of the current options under propagation and seed collecting, since we're looking at changing/improving those.

Are we in agreement that we're replacing "height" and "spacing" with the "size" checkbox list (miniature, large standard, etc)?

(Gosh, I just noticed the time.... I'll have another look at this tomorrow! Oh, and Jessie, I know it's O/T for this thread, but wanted to let you know that you and your DH are in my prayers tonight.)

Propagation Methods

By dividing the rootball
By dividing rhizomes, tubers, corms or bulbs (including offsets)
By dividing the bulb's scales
By scoring the base of the bulb to promote new bulblets
From leaf cuttings
From herbaceous stem cuttings
From woody stem cuttings
From softwood cuttings
From semi-hardwood cuttings
From hardwood cuttings
From hardwood heel cuttings
Allow cut surface to callous over before planting
From seed; direct sow outdoors in fall
From seed; winter sow in vented containers, coldframe or unheated greenhouse
From seed; stratify if sowing indoors
Direct sow as soon as the ground can be worked
From seed; sow indoors before last frost
From seed; direct sow after last frost
From seed; germinate in a damp paper towel
From seed; germinate in vitro in gelatin, agar or other medium
Scarify seed before sowing
By grafting
By budding
By simple layering
By air layering
By tip layering
By serpentine layering
By stooling or mound layering
Plant is viviparous
From spores
From bulbils

Seed Collecting

Bag seedheads to capture ripening seed
Collect seedhead/pod when flowers fade; allow to dry
Allow pods to dry on plant; break open to collect seeds
Allow seedheads to dry on plants; remove and collect seeds
Remove fleshy coating on seeds before storing
Allow unblemished fruit to ripen; clean and dry seeds
Unblemished fruit must be significantly overripe before harvesting seed; clean and dry seeds
Ferment seeds before storing
Wear gloves to protect hands when handling seeds
Properly cleaned, seed can be successfully stored
Seed does not store well; sow as soon as possible
N/A: plant does not set seed, flowers are sterile, or plants will not come true from seed

There you go. Need anything else just let me know.

Jesse

From post 3296804 - I have added in parentheses some corrections I hope are helpful.

Fower Shape:
Bell
Chimera (not a shape)
Double
Fantasy (not a shape)
Fringed
Edged (not a shape)
Multicolor (not a shape)
Semidouble
Single
Star
Two-tone (not a shape)
Wasp

(This list does not include the most common shape - 'pansy')

Also, the only description that really counts is the one given by the hybridizer as listed in the MVL. Anything else is someone's subjective opinion whether accurate or not based on their growing conditions or if the variety is even growing/blooming true to description.

********************************************************************************************************************************

Hardiness: 35-40F? Not correct. Way too cold. I would leave hardiness zones out as violets are rarely grown outdoors.

Exposure:
Sun to part shade? I would say part shade to shade. Violets don't do well in full sun.

Soil pH: 5.6 to 6.0?
I would leave that off as it is too acidic. Violets like slightly acid.

Spacing: Is a term used for outdoor planting. Either leave it blank as it does not apply or if there is to be a check off for size, use that....Miniature, Semiminiature, Standard, Large Standard. (Again, one needs the hybridizer's description)

I hope these suggestions will be of use and that the proposed changes to PF will be user friendly, simplified, and accurate. Thanks for all the good thinking being considered to enhance Plant Files.

In reference to the way I answered the questions in the PlantFiles, I got some of my answers because I did research, and some of it from what the other plant files said. I did ask for people to tell me what they thought about certain characteristics but no one replied. At least I am trying to help the PlantFiles get filled in.

Jesse


This message was edited Mar 27, 2007 4:36 AM

Jesse, I don't think anybody is anything but appreciative of your efforts! We're all just working together to try to make the PF characteristics make more sense as they apply to AVs. I'm sorry you didn't get a response to your previous thread.... I know it was frustrating to have that thead just lose momentum and stall last year.

Thanks for the PF characteristic lists... where are you finding these? I got really frustrated last night trying to look for a list like that. It'll help us properly word things for AV propagation, I think. Where's the list for bloom colors? Was it tailored for AVs, or is it a general list from PF? Does it need tweaking?

(I'm sorry, I should probably be more familiar with all the checkbox terms.... I just haven't added anything new to PF for a while.)

Thanks for your input, Snowrose! I think "pansy" should be added to the list, and it sounds like "flower characteristics" would be a better term than "flower shape." I know "color" is still a "characteristic," but I don't think it will confuse anyone to have flower color as a separate checkbox list.

For harvesting seeds, does this PF description seem appropriate for AVs?'
Allow seedheads to dry on plants; remove and collect seeds

This is way over my head, but then.......I have just started growing Av's, episicias and streps within the last year.....glad you all know about this!!!

It's important to have everybody weigh in to the discussion, Bettygail! ActuallyI'd appreciate knowing if anybody would find these long checkbox lists (like for the leaf or flower characteristics) too intimidating.... and if it would help to have a link to the definitions included on the PF page (Dave would probably be more willing to consider this if it wasn't just one or two people saying, hey, this seems like a good idea).

The long checkbox lists will make it easier to search for plants with the characteristics you're looking for.... but last time we went through this, we started wondering if the lists were getting over-detailed, and that's about where we stalled.

Once a variety has been entered, the long lists of checkboxes disappear of course... and then you can simply add your own comments, photos, etc. to the information about the plant.

I will put it this way.....I simply don't know enough to ever put into plant files....the leaves, the color, the bloom shapes, etc, etc.etc.......I just wish we had some place to post a picture of a particularly pretty AV and know that someone else enjoys putting it into plant file. If the file already exists, then I do know how to upload a photo.....if there is no file, I give up!!! I am not sure, but I think most of us who have only been growing gesneriads for a year will not be able to start a new file.....they are just not jumping into the conversation....
Having said that, I never care if others use my pictures....Claypa did that for me the other day with a rare silk moth....as I didn't know how....the moth was so rare there was not even a bug file on it, although several people identified it.
I spend most of my time in the garden and outside growing, but I DO LOVE my Av's. episicias and streps....
gail

Well, thanks to Jesse's efforts, the number of AV entries in PF has been increasing dramatically! :-)

I second that, critter.