Reports of trouble in this forum

I am gonna play on both side s of this. I am one of the newbie s here on this forum. When I first came, I was a bit intimated. Everybody here seemed so knowledgable and I was really green. Some times, I got replys that were answered in very simple text to explain to a newbie. Some were corrected, some had humor above my head, some ignored.

Now if the bit about complaints is true, then I ask those new to the forum to maybe consider this instead of complaining. Do what I did. I would read all the threads and posts, through the posts I learned who the kidders are, who the more scientific people, who does the kid glove handling. By doing this I was able to understand everbody better and get a feel for them and their personalities.

I am the worlds worst typist. Not a soul has complained about my typing dyslexia or misspelling. I am wordy, very chatty, but I am a shy person too. I have a great sens e of humor, but take s a bit for me to get going and let it out. I am slow on the uptake of jokes, but have a good laugh three days later when I finally figure them out. : ) I have some knowledge, but for t he most part am very ignornant when it comes to trees and shrubs.

By chilling and just throwing a comment out her e and there, I have learned the folks here and they have learne d me. Am I totally comfortable. No and probably never will be because being new I haven't the years of experience of chatting relationship that most the folks on here have between each other. it wil take me, if ever, years to even scratch the surface of that type of relationship, so I don't expect the folks on here to talk to me the way they might to somebody else, but I take no offense at it. it just a fact of life.

This forum has some of the world's best tree and shrub folks on it anywhere in the world. I feel VERY honored to be talking to and learning from these folks. The problem with what little bit of uncomfortablility I have on this forum is not with any of them, but with my own insecurities from lack of knowledge. I think it a shame that anybody would complain against anybody here to the administrators.

I can google 24/7 , and just about do, anything, but what googling will not bring me, is the actual first hand knowledge and years of experience those on this forum share. They open the world up to me and to others as I share what info they pass on. This is a most precious gift if folks would just realize it.

Now, If a topic over my head, I either skip it , or ask for more indepth clarfification, or go google and read and then come back and get advice.

My professor asked me the other day, how I was able to suddenly start identifying trees and shubs from just a glance. I told him, I gettign better because of the good folk here sharign their actual knowledge and pictures. No place else can you actually get to see real life situations of these trees and shrubs.

The amount of infor in these threads is priceless. The years of studying, training, photographing, researching, let alone all the time devoted to answering our questions that they probably have already answerd a thousand times to other folks like me just learning, to help all us newbies out. It is staggering when you think about. Some folks just have no idea. I could probably never learn in 10 years what Viburnum can put in one thread about Virburnums for example.

All, I can say, is as a newbie, I appreciate all the help, the understanding and the folks willingness to share. I for one, realize what a precious gift you give to me and to others even if they don't. I also appreciate your humor , even if I don't get it sometimes. ; ) I appreciate the diverse mix you are in bringing knowledge from so many different areas. I appreciate you making me a better tree person and helping me to preserve my little corner of the world and possibly other parts . I also thankyou for broadenign my horizons and openign up the world to me.

I missed alot with exams and midterms going on, but I am sorry to here about Levilya. To me whether I agre e or not personally , all people's opinions, ideals, and thought s are important. Even in disagreement, knowledge is learned. I hope I never become so closed minded that I can not appreciate somebody else's opinion.

See, told ya I was chatty, but again, tree folks, Thank You for being just who you are and lending your eyes, ears and knowledge to this newbie!!

The post above was one of the best philosophized written expression that I have read in a long time.

Thanks, it was much enjoyed.

I couldn't agree more ~ excellent summation, starlight.

It's interesting that this thread seems pretty much unanimous that there are no problems here. The trouble is, though, that my dmail inbox and our helpdesk are full of reports from members who have not posted to this thread, complaining about this forum. I find it strange that the reports are so wildly different and inconsistent, but my guess is that those who see your behavior in this forum as a problem are those who are afraid to post here.

Many of the members who have privately contacted me are members who have been here for many years and who I know to be good members with level heads. Am I to turn my back and cast a blind eye on their concerns?

Dave

Starlight that was wonderfully put! Tells alot about this forum and many in it.

The fact remains I still am very confused that with all that has been written here no one from admin will address the banning of one person alone in what has been referred to as "cliques" or the HUGE amount of complaints. I have not seen one entry here to support a HUGE amount of complaints especially against the "one' person who has been banned.

Is this because they choose not to step up and say their piece or show their faces so to speak? Dave asks for people to personally dmail him names of the people causing problems. Was hers the only one?

Levilyla enjoyed this site and forum most of all for all that is stated above. For the fact she was able to get such good advice and knowledge from so many who had it as well as the fun back and forth banter of jokes and commodore. It is more than a a shame she has been singled out by the HUGE amounts of complaints. This was actually one of the first expierences she had getting on the internet and it was a great source of information for her passion for gardening. It saddens me greatly that aFEW have made it impossible for her to continue here.

It is no secret that Levilyla is my mother and of course I feel badly for her to be treated this way but as a group of people on this site we should want answers as to who it is that has the power to complain to the point of banning members for their own personal reasons.

again

Just curious

I think the subject of "Trees and Shrubs" is so broad, compared to a lot of the rest of Dave's Garden... only a couple groups have gotten their own forums, (Rhododendrons, Japanese Maples, Palms...) To me it clusters a lot of serious tree people together in a concentration that apparently intimidates some people... How about a beginner's tree forum, maybe in the group that's also on Gardens.com?

No one has been singled out. The decision to ban a particular member occurred prior to Dave starting this thread.

Generally speaking, members are banned when they persist in violating the Acceptable Use Policy after multiple warnings and attempt to counsel them. All I can say is this case was no exception.

Since bannings are not subject to an opinion poll among members, there's really no reason to discuss it with the group, either before or after the fact. For us to publicly discuss the details that led to someone's dismissal would be a violation of their privacy and humiliating to them when they are no longer here to defend themselves; we have no reason or desire to do that to anyone.

I am a daily lurker here, and on other threads. If something like that was happening, I'm sure I would have seen it. I have learned so much and enjoyed my time here thoroughly. The long-timers are part of the lure to this board. I have learned so much from them, and have enjoyed their easy, witty conversation back and forth- just like you were discussing something over the fence with neighbors. I've never noticed rudeness, or any other problems. Thanks for not ignoring the complaints, and being ready to 'fix' the problem. I am really surprised to learn there have been complaints. I just haven't seen it.

perhaps this subject is going nowhere- but reading all this for the first time this evening I am truly surprised. i visit this forum just now and then, it is both extremely informative, and entertaining. i love hearing some of the experts here (there are quite a few!) talk way beyond the casual knowlege level concerning woody plants, and i love the fun they have doing it. No one here has ever offended me. A few times I have posted something, or entered in, and even though i am not one of the "regulars", i have never felt shunned, ignored,or belittled.. I have learned a lot.

To imply that serious scientific discussion is intimidating to anyone, especially to people who have voluntarily joined a gardening forum, for their own edification and enjoyment, is a little insulting. Because no matter how well-intentioned the purpose, the effect would be the same. Surely you would still have the little cliques it seems we're all trying to avoid. Which I find whenever I go to just about any other forum, here or on any other site, or whenever I'm trying to get to know anyone, period. People have to learn how to make friends, it's one of life's basic skills. And not everyone is going to like everyone else. But to insist on basic respect, common courtesy and good manners, that goes without saying.

I beg to differ Terry

She was singled out and all know it.
I know for a fact she was never given any warning whatsoever that she would be banned from the site for any activity she had on this site. Told a post maybe pulled yes but not banned from the site. I think all stated above in this thread is very true that not many if any saw a problem but yet a few had their issues. Yes a few and we all know who they are.

I have not had any problems here but I am sure you can understand my concerns with this issue.

You do not know my Mother nor does Dave so I guess it is easy for you to take sides so quickly.

My Mother was singled out and she is a wonderful person to have here with her knowledge, wit and much more.
This is so sad you have lost a woman who is kind and generous in more ways then you will ever know and all because of two that want their way. Best of luck with that!

Anne

Yes, this is pretty disturbing. My membership is up in a couple of weeks and I am seriously considering not resubscribing. This is "almost" like what happened at GardenWeb when Spike was around. A few people complain and suddenly it's the word of God and they couldn't possibly be wrong. It's really too bad.

Well, Dave, I guess it depends on who you believe; the people who have posted to this thread or the people who have filled your in box. Which group are you willing to do without? I know you have sold this site, but you are still involved with its daily operations. From your past track record, I know you are a fair, level-headed individual. It's what attracted me to this site in the first place.

So, as you have stated above, what are you going to do? Ban those of us who have posted to this thread/forum and say that there isn't a problem or ban the people who have flooded your in box? It's not going to be an easy decision. I would guess that a good share of one group or the other will end up leaving since they will be unhappy with whatever decision is made.
Good luck,
Mike




This message was edited Mar 9, 2007 7:51 AM

Dave and Terry -

There does seem to be a real disconnect between what I (and may others) have observed on this forum and what is being reported to you. Also, from your statements it's hard to tell what the issues are. In one post, intimidated newcomers are sited, and in another, those contacting you are long standing members. Are you positive that this is a real issue with the forum, and not some personality differences or old conflict allowed to fester? Are these real problems or are these differences in style?

Peg

Terry and Dave,

All our threads are available to read, except for one recent pulled thread, and I'm sure that one is still available to you. Have you read the threads? What do you think?

I have been racking my brain trying to find ways that anything I have read or written in the past six months could be construed by newbies as intimidating or offensive. I keep coming up blank. In my opinion, everyone here is helpful and gracious, especially to newbies.

Debates happen, but always among regulars. But good old-fashioned, honest debates are good. And, in all but a very small number of cases, they have remained respectful and civil.

I'm not a conspiracy type of person, and I'm sorry, but I think your inbox is very possibly being manipulated by one or a handful of discontents. Obviously, I have not seen the complaints, but nothing else makes sense. You have seen here the response of ALMOST every regular and a bunch of newbies and lurkers, and only one or two have hinted at a problem. Why does this large, bright, and quite trustworthy group of people and their opinions about a forum they obviously care about, most of whom have been customers for quite a long time, why are their protests being ignored? In other words, are we not, also, good, longtime members with level heads?

I really invite you to take an afternoon and read through all the threads yourself and come to your own determination. Check them out. Something is going on here that doesn't add up.

Scott

Please don't anyone consider my earlier post as seeing a problem with the forum... I just figured maybe a beginner forum would avoid any percieved 'intimidation' asking a question here.

I have never found that my inexperience has made me feel intimidated on this forum. In fact, it is the first place I go for information-- I always receive respectful and helpful answers to my questions. If there are problems here I haven't seen them. It is astonishing the breadth of information available from around the world.

Ive noticed that several beginner forums have been started already. If new people are intimidated, that would seem to be the answer, as Claypa suggested above. I don't really understand that approach. The whole concept of Dave's Garden, is that the forums are for "intelligent readers". If you don't know a term, ask or do a search. Ive always been a "back of the book" person myself. If you want to know something, ask the expert, not go to Trees & Shrubs 101.

As for the long-term level headed members who have complained, we don't know what the complaints are do we? Maybe there needs to be still another forum, The Forum of Discontents. We could put the Itching for a Fight thread there and have it out. Nothing like fresh air to explore a problem.

I tend to be opinionated... I hope I haven't offended anyone e.g. with my views on wine corks. Also I have more book-larnin' (self-taught, though, which means full of gaps) than experience, alternate between lurking and sticking my spoon in every pot...

Mark., hope I haven't triggered those complaints

I get the feeling that the issue is not about "newbies" at all. I think this a few seasoned DGer's that are holding a grudge and won't be satisfied until the whole thing gets shut down. The fact is, there are some people who are not going to be satisfied no matter how much you try to get along with them. Maybe instead of banning people, you could do temporary suspensions? That way when certain people are suspended you can see if things improve. Then you will know who created the real problems.

Is it also possible that one person could have multiple identities and file multiple complaints?

We have ways of knowing when people have multiple identities.

I disabled posting privileges to 3 members. We'll see if that helps things.

Dave

Dave... I know it not the easiest thing in the world to try and keep thousands of personalities happy. You , Terry and the others do a good job of blending so many different personalitie s together and trying to keep them all in harmony.

Let me tell you a true story. On a different forum a newbie came. They asked a question. The answer they got was full of information, was correct and that person even went to the trouble of posting pics for them. I got an email from the person who orginally asked the question. The email was a complaint about the person who had replied to them. They thought the person was rude and sarcasic and a host of other not so nice words.

The person who had done the answering was, in fact, none of those things. They are a very well known world wide reputable person. I was flabbergasted. If they would have taken the time to read some of the other posts they would have known what a treasure of info they had just recieved. Instead they just happened to pick up on text, and because it seemed that it wan't written the way they talked that the person was being rude.

I emailed them back and told them how so wrong they were about this person and that they needed to look to their attitude. I also told them that nobody talks the same, especially on the interent. The world full of soft-spoken folks, blustery ones, the good ole folks and all those other types in between.

I also told them if they thought they had a problem with this person that they should email them privately and explain to them hey if was a bit offended by the way you posted to me is the problem with me personally or is that just the way you talk.

If there was folks that seeme d to have problems, I wish they would have privately emailed folks and handled the situation in a professional manner instead of running to Dave first.

There have been times myself when I poste d something and gotten a weird answer or no answer, ( not talkign about any folks on here) I emailed that person and said hey did I offend you, or somethign or what was the problem and apologized. Never was a problem actually they just was runnign short on time and made the post quick and short. They actually was dealign with a critical illnes s in the family , but didn't want to leave my question hanging. People have lives and things that occupy their days. You never know what kind of a day they having or what situations they may be facing. They may only have time to say a word or two. Folks need to take time to consider that before jumping to wrong conclusions.

Resin.... I hope ya don't mind me using you for an example, but you a good one to use. : ) I get so tickled with Resin. He comes from a totally different country that talks in a totally different way than mine. I what I call a sloppy typer and he a professional one. We look like oil and water some days on the threads. Usually when I post he comes back along and corrects me. Should I take offense at this? I would be a fool of the biggest sorts if I did. I appreciate the fact that he care s enough about me as a person and my education that he takes the time out of his day to make sure I get the correct and right info. I would be highly upset if he, or anybody else for that matter let me go around without the correct information.

Dave... Maybe these folks who complained just don't realize that the tree and shrub forum and a few other specializeded threads are not like some of the other forums. This is not maybe the best place for long chatty cosey discussions. You have created places for that.

Havign the right info and practice s is very critical to the health and life of the trees. Not to mention your pocket book . : ) Growing , maintaining trees is not any easy job nor field. You can learn to grow a petunia in a day. You may spend a lifetime trying to grow and preseve a single tree.

Maybe these complainers just don't realiz e that just like other forums there is gonna be jokes and kidding they don't understand. It like me going into an accountant office. They are a specialized field. They all have their little tax jokes. It what brightens their day. Am I gonan understand them. Nope. Shoud l take offense, definately not, I know I have my own set of jokes for the field I specialize in.

I have never seen anybody on here purposely be rude, or put down, or critisize somebody on here. I would ask that those folks that might seem upset by the humor to hang around more, learn , participate, read, get knowledgable. Then maybe they too would learn some of humorous little jokes. I loved the funny thread we had going. My greatest joke was "What tree can't Superman climb?" Ya it wa s lame, but it was a joke and we all had fun with it.

Even the humor on here is invaluable. Sometimes when I standing in front of a tree and trying to identify it, I will be totally stumped to it's scientific name at first. Then it will come to me in flash because of a joking comment that may have been mentione d here. Their humor has on more than one occassion save d the bark off my hide come test time. I think it very sad that because of a few who could not handle things in private, that now not only the regulars but any other new folks may feel that they have to look over their keyboard s at every word they type.

I for one am going to continue to be me. I gonna continue to write and type as I always have. I gonan keep askign the questions and keep right on sharing. I gonna keep making mistakes for many years to come as I learn this new field, but most of all I gonna keep right on learning from the person down the road or the the one a thousand mile s away. You can love me, like me tolerate me , hate me or ignore me. The choice is yours.

Ya know, For about half my lifetime I been battling with these darn hickory nuts year after year. Thanks to Gloria's tibit of information I now look loveingly at those nuts. She gave me a reason to make sure they stay healthly and an avenue to supply some food to folks. There is so much info here between the threads. Those who may think you are being offended, I ask that you try and look at this the words here not personally, but as the treasure trove it is.

Gooley. I glad you posted about wine corks. I learned somethign new. I never learned before. I did a bunch of googling. It amazign stuff to learn. I'll never look at a wine bottle and cork again the same.

For anybody thinking of not posting or leaving. I would ask you to reconsider. Becaus e of reading both pro and con posts , there are now trees that I will now not grow and sell becaus e they will be invasive to others. What I thought wa s so cute could have potentially hurt so many other folks. I've pulled my ads and destroyed what stock I had.

Whether you are a professional or back-booke d learned or just hands on learned, or like me a wanna -be- gonna try my darndest to be, every piece of info you share helps to save not only maybe one tree but possibly an entire species. You are an invaluable assets for folks around the world. I may never get the chance to ever meet any of you in person, but I will always carry every person on here who posts thoughts, ideas, and knowledge around with in me whether they be big or small.

I hope whoeve r has the problems sinc e they don't want to post on here will at least post to the person on here that they feel they have trouble with, becaus e your not necessarily hurting them, your hurting all the other folks especially the little person who may have only one tree in their yard they trying to save if this forum pulled. Your hurting the person who maybe tryign to landscape their yard and will spend their hard earned money and time and labor putting in wrong trees for their area. Your hurting the person who posts about the tree growign in their yard and how beautiful it is and denying the rest of the folks knowldge and experience of this tree.

Like a welcome summer rain, humor may suddenly
cleanse and cool the earth, the air and you.
- Langston Hughes

One more time, with feeling ;o)

This isn't about posts being too technical for the beginning gardener.

This isn't about good-natured joking and teasing among friends.

Bottom line: this isn't an issue of a few people being too thin-skinned. The reports have come from too many people, many of whom have demonstrated they understand the give-and-take nature of forum postings.

Just because someone hasn't personally witnessed any problems doesn't mean the problems don't exist. Threads and posts have been edited and deleted because they were too mean-spirited and vitriolic to leave up. If you haven't seen the problems, count your blessings. As the saying goes, ignorance is bliss where knowledge is folly.

Hopefully by suspending some posting privileges, the problems will stop. Unlike other website forums mentioned in this thread, we've never arbitrarily banned people out of the blue. Dave has gotten pretty creative (and forbearing) in his efforts to keep people from sawing off the limb they're perched on.

I do appreciate the difficulty of dealing with a whole world full of people posting whatever they feel like. Lots of people are very defensive and easily angered, lots of people speak freely without intending insults. And then you have the ones that really are agressive and looking for problems, and seem to enjoy the fighting and verbal wars.

I have posted many questions on this forum and gotten answers that would have taken an table full of books to maybe find the conclusions these years of experience gave me, which I recieved quickly and easily. I love opinions and differances. I am also likely to be honest with what I feel is a problem. For example if I was to find someone posting in a mean agressive way, I would post back saying that it upset me and why. And I would try and not take things too personal. I did see a post one time that got out of hand, almost. Someone asked a question and someone answered in a very terse manner. The original poster responded that their feelings were hurt. The terse poster then explained it was unintentional, they were late running out the door and did want to give an answer. A sincere apology and all was well.

That is how grown ups respond. And I do love the close friends that have history. Its okay if they post something that was active on line between them awhile ago that I don't understand. And I do know if I asked what it was about they would probably share with me the history. I have seen mean spirits that have been dealt with in a postive way.

This is not the place people should be going for personal drama and conflict. If they like that type of behavior then they should be banned. People can ruin a good thing by meaness and also by not dealing in an adult manner with issues that don't need to be problems. A simple, "Hey, that comment hurt my feelings or made me feel left out" would probably have ended it as most of the posters on this forum would be upset to find they made people feel badly.

I love this forum and cannot tell you how much I have learned from you guys. Hopefully we can keep it like it is, friendly and letting our personalities show in a postive way.
Rebecca

Seems to me, Dave, that all these positive comments here are feather's in your and your administrators' caps. Dave's Garden is not what it is just because of the member posts. If managing it didn't have anything to do with it, Dave's would be just like any other garden site, in my opinion.

Oh what a beautiful morning, Oh what a beautiful day,..... I just want to have fun, Trees and Shrubs is a wonderful play.
This message was edited Mar 10, 2007 11:04 AM

This message was edited Mar 10, 2007 7:54 PM

I just came across this one and all I can say is this is really sad to read.

What is going on here??

It sounds as though there is a lot of back biting here; at whom is this directed??

A marvelous site for those of us who have little knowledge of TREES AND SHRUBS but what is all the hooplah about??

Can't we get back to the trees and shrubs??

REDFOX1

I Would like to add a little thought here .
I think you should read THIS thread before adding to it .
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/690891/#new
I'm a skitso , And I am too.
Please lighten up ppl . Kell

Ginger and Redfoxx,

Thanks for the reminder of what this forum is about and the kick in the butt (so to speak) to lighten up. Good advice.

And, speaking from one who would really, really love to see this thread and the complaints that prompted it to go away quickly and forever, I would feel remiss if I let this all pass without saying to Starlight that while it is true that your typing is truly, breathtakingly awful (LOL), your message came through crystal clear. Thanks for your thoughtful, heart felt, and wonderful two posts. I was very, very moved, and humbled.

Now, spring is here. Things are happening outside. Let's get back to plants!

Scott

I am just checking here by making a post to see if my posting priveleges were suspended. I guess if I can do this, they haven't been. I am very opinionated sometimes, so are lots of others here, and that is GOOD. You learn big-time from experienced dirt gardeners who are opinionated and have nothing to sell -- more than from almost any other context except your own personal experience.

I was gone last week so haven't seen many of the posts till today. But I sure agree with Kevin and Mike and Scott and many others above that I just don't get this. It DOES seem like what happened on GW, when a few people were cut, and then everybody knowledgeable just left. That forum is dead now. I bet they don't have many complaints on GW Woodies forums, because few people post. They all came here. I sure hope that doesn't happen again.

I agree with Scott, Spring is almost here, 26 degrees this morning. Let's get back to plants and trees.

Donna

I agree too. 75 degrees yesterday!!

Minus 12 F and wind chills in the minus 20s here in anchorage. Lots of sun though. I can't believe MI is 75 degrees. Pretty soon you will be singing with the flowers popping up.

Its on 55 Ftoday and dropping. High predicted for this weekend: mid thirties........

As a lurker - I would like to chime in to say levilyla AKA the plant guru will be sorely missed by ME and many more! Her knowledge of plants and the latin names are nothing short of amazing. I have learned so much from her. Such a shame that knowledge has been cut off to us subscribers.

I would also like to recognize starlight and say how much I appreciate and agree with what she has written. Sorta jealous about your writing to be honest.

-Kim

At the same time Dave at DG I respect and admire and their job is difficult and to keep issues abated they must make knowledgeable decisions. I trust them. Don't we all by subscribing to their site? We cannot by legal issues know the details of what happened but I was asked to change my dialog and I found it easy to stay here. Levilyla was a source of much knowledge but how hard is it to follow the requests of Dave. I found it easy. Steve