Hybrid or not?

I understand that hybrids do not come true from seed, but that other plants do. (I'm sure that overgeneralizes the picture, but stay with me.) How can I find out if a plant is a hybrid? I don't see that information on plantfiles. I have a number of seed I am about to plant, many of which have been harvested directly and that I received from friends or via swaps. I'd like to know which plants are hybrid -- I might be less inclined to plant hybrid seeds if I can't be sure of what is going to emerge. But I don't know how to find that information efficiently.

Happy.... it is kinda of hard to find out if your plant is a hybrid or not unless you have the exact name. You can google a search for that plant and read through those articles that come from univeristies and they some times can tell you. Also if you google and put the word propagation first sometimes that will help

For example in google propagation of Cineraria ' Jester Scarlet'

if you have an exact name it helps. Also look through the seed catalogs. you will see the words hybrid, hybrida and F1 if they are hybrids.

Even if your planting hybrid seeds, your still gonna have a percent that will look like the plant the seed came off of.

For seeds that you're getting from other people, get as much of the plant name as possible--if there's a cultivar name, then there's a good chance it's a hybrid and may not come true from seed. But even if the parent plant itself isn't a hybrid, the seeds you get still could be if the person who grew them had a number of similar but not identical plants growing in their garden or if there were similar plants in the neighbor's yard (for example a couple different colors of the same plant). They can cross-pollinate each other, and some of the seeds that were harvested could be a hybrid between the two, and the person who sent you the seeds is not going to necessarily know whether the plant could have been pollinated by something else or not. Again, some percent will probably still look like the parent you wanted them to, but some percentage may not if some of the flowers were pollinated by something else. The people who grow seed for the seed catalogs have ways to control what pollinates what, so they can be more certain of exactly what the seeds they're sending you are but most backyard gardeners can't guarantee that. If you really care that much that things are exactly what you want, you're better off buying from the seed catalogs, or buying small plants instead or growing things from cuttings since those will turn out exactly like the parent.

Thank you. So if I have the exact name and cultivar name, I google it and just hope I can find that information somewhere? Because it doesn't seem that readily available. For example, there isn't a category for hybrid status on plant files.

Plants that were hybridized on purpose will most likely have an indication in the name (either there will be a cultivar name, or as Starlight mentioned above they'll come with a notation of hybrid, hybrida, F1, etc). However as I explained in my last post, there can be plants that are unintentionally hybridized too, and since the person who was growing them had no way of knowing that they were cross-pollinated by something else, you won't be able to tell anything from the name. Since these are seeds that came in trades or from your own collecting, my guess is that they wouldn't have the notation of hybrida, F1, etc so really all you have to go on is if it had a cultivar name it likely won't come true, and if it didn't have a cultivar name then there's a chance it will. (of course some people might not remember to include the cultivar name when they send you the seed). So I think you either need to plant the seeds and see what comes up (many of the plants will probably look like what you want, but a few probably won't), or go back and re-buy all the seeds from a seed catalog so you know exactly what you're getting.

I understand about the unintentional hybridizing. It's the intentional hybridizing I want to be clear on! Among other things, I haven't tried harvesting seeds before, and I don't want to try to harvest seed from hybrids for trades. So I need to figure out what seeds will be successful. Thanks for all your input.

The easy thing then is avoid anything with a cultivar name, or anything that you bought from a seed catalog that was marked as a hybrid. And I think for trading, we all know there's a chance the seeds might not turn out to be quite what they were supposed to be, it's a risk that's inherent in growing things from seed, so as long as you're honest about where the seeds came from and give as much info as you know, you'll have plenty of takers (many people may be perfectly happy to take seeds from a named cultivar even if they know it might not come true from seed!)

Thanks!

I would agree with avoiding seed from cultivars if one wants offspring that are true to type however not necessarily so with hybrids. It's my understanding stabilized hybrids will be as true to type as a straight species from seed if pollination is controlled.

In this particular situation; the V x burkwoodii was growing in the presence of a multitude of other straight species, hybrids, and cultivars of Viburnum. This particular member is a collector to one degree or another. There is no way seed collected from that plant could be guaranteed to come true to type because I doubt the pollinators landed on his plant and said, "gee, I have to make sure the only Viburnums I visit today are all the other V x burkwoodii so I don't mix up the pollen". If this person were to share seed with anyone, they should label the seed V x burkwoodii x open pollinated (too many possible pollinators to do much of anything but to label it x open pollinated) to help keep it straight. Let's narrow it down a little bit and pretend that in addition to the V x burkwoodii that he only had one other Viburnum with an overlapping bloom time of say... V. carlesii. That would mean that seed from his V x burkwoodii would probably best be labeled as V. x burkwoodii x V. carlesii not simply V x burkwoodii just because the seed came from the V. x burkwoodii. Does this make sense?

I posted that a while ago and just remembered it when I saw this thread. Bottom line is that if you cross a stabilized hybrid to a stabilized hybrid regardless of whether it is a naturally occurring hybrid or not, the resulting offspring will be true to type. I have several naturally occurring hybrids on my property. There are no other species around them that they could hybridize with as I've been very careful to avoid planting anything that could interfere with my genotype. If I collect seed from these plants and if I share the seed, the offspring would be true to type. Not so with the cultivars I have growing here. If I want to propagate a cultivar, it must be done asexually to ensure the results are true to type.

Just re-read this whole thread and think maybe these links might help further clarify what a cultivar is and isn't-
http://www.plantcultivar.info/what_is_a_cultivar.htm
http://onlineathens.com/stories/012607/living_20070126009.shtml

You may find that some hybrids put out no seed at all. For instance, the Hardy geranium 'Johnson's Blue'. If someone offers seed for this plant, it is not Johnson's blue. On the other hand, I find that some of the named violas come back fairly true, if kept off to themselves. One good example is 'Penny Orchid Frost'. It self seeds, and the offspring look much like the parent plant. I have planted seeds from Celebrity Blue petunias, and the offspring are much the same, only they seem to have more fragrance.

Hey Weeze, how be you? I don't know much about named violas because I mostly work with straight species that are indigenous to my region. Petunias I buy in flats because I love to stick them in planters by my front doors but other than that, I'd be toast with Petunias. I do grow Geranium 'Jolly Bee' and G. Johnson's Blue' and here's where it gonna get interesting because I had to do a little checking into them to make sure I wouldn't have a problem with my native Geranium maculatum. I wanted my G. maculatum to remain clean so to speak and didn't particularly want them hybridizing with a G. wallichianum and/or a G. himalayense x G. pratense. I came to the conclusion that I could plant them because the plants differed wildly from my G. maculatum to the extent that I think I would have had to use colchicine to create viable seed. I really don't think my G. maculatum will accept foreign pollen from either the 'Jolly Bee' or the 'Johnson's Blue' and vice versa.

The parentage of 'Johnson's Blue' would be Geranium himalayense and Geranium pratense. It's not a naturally occurring hybrid but a result of selective breeding. A true 'Johnson's Blue' is a triploid and I believe that would be why it is sterile. The offspring of this selective breeding were polyploids because a duplicate set of chromosomes must have been produced for each cell. The parents had a different set of chromosome that didn't pair. I believe the only way to get a real 'Johnson's Blue' would be to go back to the original parents (not possible) or purchase a clone or rather a plant that was reproduced asexually. Back to where it gets interesting- although a true 'Johnson's Blue' is sterile. It's offspring may not be sterile. In other words, the plant iself can't set viable seed but it might be able to pollinate another plant. And, when this happens the resulting seed could be viable. Not to get off track but this is what happened with the 'Bradford Pear' which was released as being sterile. Pyrus calleryana 'Bradford Pear' was sterile but its offspring certainly weren't when in the presence of other Asian P. calleryana and they reverted to type when they escaped cultivation. Something the creator of the cultivar never anticipated. Type in this particular situation was a thorny P. calleryana that was not exactly coveted by gardeners.

There's a great site out there somewhere that is hosted by a woman who practices white witchcraft I believe but maybe my memory is toast on that. I'm going to go try to find that because she hit it on the head with 'Johnson's Blue' and evidently spent a considerable amount of time researching what's on the market.

Oops, she's not into white witchcraft but she does seem to be familiar with the 'Johnson's Blue' plants being sold-
http://www.paghat.com/cranesbilljohnsons.html

In the PF, if the entry has the options properly checked off....and that's a BIG 'if'...there's an option under seed saving that will let the person mark if it's a hybrid. Many,many entries are improperly marked.

You've got the option of checking off....'seed saving is not recommended as the plant may not come true from saved seeds' Hybrid plants should have this option checked, but many don't.

Some plants will pretty much look like the parent, and it should be noted in the comment section if you have had good luck with the saved hybrid seeds. This lets the potential grower know the status of the plant, and potentially the saved seeds.

Veggies have the hybrid/op/heirloom check off option programed in.

That does not really help with the original question, but lets you know that PF is set up to record the difference between the two.

Can you list the plants in question? Maybe some of us are familiar with them and can speed up your search a bit.

Thanks. I really don't want to bother you with each seed I have a question about -- I'd drive you crazy -- but you are wonderful to offer. If I get stuck, I'll let you know.

What muddies the waters in the PF for me is that the option one checks off or doesn't check off is-
Seed Collecting:
plant does not set seed, flowers are sterile, or plants will not come true from seed

It's almost a trick question and I've found myself struggling to answer it when dealing with cultivars as well as hybrids.

First issue is that of cultivars for obvious reasons but we can skip them because the greater issue with that PF option is that although many hybrids are sterile, there are many that aren't. I'm thinking of naturally occurring hybrids. They are allopolyploids and without them, we wouldn't be enjoying nearly as many new species as we currently enjoy. Fertility was restored to these hybrids when their chromosome number doubled and was ultimately paired with their doubles. I may not have worded that properly but that's the best way I can describe what happened based on my understanding. Natural creation at play here in that a hybrid capable of sexual reproduction comes into existance. And, offspring of natural hybrids that are stabilized in that they have become their own species... will generally be true to type save a sport (natural genetic mutation occurring spontaneously) which may or may not be worthy of cultivar status.

In answer to his/her original question, "I have a number of seed I am about to plant, many of which have been harvested directly and that I received from friends or via swaps. I'd like to know which plants are hybrid"... technically, all of the seed he/she has is hybrid but I don't believe that was what he intended to ask. I think what he was getting at is how can he/she figure out what seed will germinate and mature to match how it was labeled when he/she received it. From the seed that was harvested directly, he/she would know at least one of the parent plants because he/she presumably harvested the seed. Regarding the seed he/she received from swaps and trades, the only way to try to get an answer is to ask the people he/she received the seed from and hope for the best. If there's open pollination going on, and frequently there is and has been because most of us are plantaholics and don't just stop with one plant of the same genus... chances are pretty good that there is no way to reliably answer his/her question unless the people he received seed from were hand pollinating their plants. Too much mislabeling going on for a multitude of reasons.

Equil, isn't Paghat's site a kick! I get lots of information there. I once emailed her to ask about some red woodside columbine seed, but she says she doesn't save seeds and doesn't like trading because it is always more trouble than it is worth. I can see her point. As to the Johnson's Blue, I got mine from a friend who dug part of hers up to divide. As a seed collector, I look for seed heads on all my plants, and this one has never had them. As to its habit, it is much shorter than pratense and a bit floppy. I should have planted it toward the front of the bed, not the back. I does bloom profusely, but who knows!

I have to admit, I had not thought of a sterile hybrid pollinating another plant. If my Johnson's Blue wanted to cross with another geranium, a bee need only fly about 20 feet away to find one of our wild cranesbill, Geranium erianthum.

Who ever Paghat is, she's fun. I run into her site from time to time and she can be a hoot. I've never e-mailed her but then I don't e-mail people from the net. She doesn't exactly have your flair for words but she might if you and me met her in person. Who knows.

Be U tee ful Johnson's Blue. Who cares if they're floppy. Just prop em up with other forbs of some sort. Pack em in. Waves of blue!

I don't know that your G. erianthum would even accept pollen from your Johnson's Blue? I'd have to go digging and digging and digging and who knows when I'd surface from a chromosome search or even if I ever would but I've got to focus this weekend on trying to remember to do a toilet bowl scrubbing demo for some of the gals over in another forum. The wall washing demo was really action packed and there was some talk of a crack and crevice cleaning demo and we sort of got partially started on that but I got side tracked. Maybe you should contribute a dust bunny roundup demo? It would be so you!

Isn't that a bummer about some allegedly "sterile" plants. Makes me do a slow burn as I run around cutting off the feet to spent panty hose to cover up blooms to keep non-discriminating pollinators from messing with my gene pool. There are some weeks that it looks as if I am growing pot after pot of nylon around here.

I have no idea whether the G. erianthum can cross with G. pratense, but they look a great deal alike. As for our wild columbine Aquilegia formosa, I'm pretty sure it crosses with my McKana's. Here is a photo of three different columbine flowers from three plants in my own yard. The one on the left looks like A. canadensis, though I swear I didn't plant it there. The one on the right is A. formosa, as it appears in the wild. The one in the center is some sort of cross. It really looks like my McKanas. I've got a maroon and yellow in a flower bed about 30 feet away.

Whoa, can you do me a favor and e-mail me that photo in full jpeg so I can look at that real close?

Yes, just did.

Wow is about all I can say. The one on the far left appears to be A. canadensis. Some variability in leaves on that. I could see it just popping up out of no where given where you live which I think is well within its native range. The far right could be straight species A. formosa. They also have some variability in the leaves but those leaves are darn near dissected not so dissimilar from Dicentra cucullaria. The middle ??? Are you growing next to a nuclear power plant? Just kidding. Looks as if you have some European influence there, possibly vulgaris? Those McKana hybrids... anyone know what's in their parentage or is this one of those times you have to ask the hummingbirds?

The photo of the pubescent Aquilegia you sent me was really a great image.

Have you ever run into these people-
http://www.lifesci.ucsb.edu/eemb/faculty/hodges/research/research_02.html

Have some fun here-
http://flora.huh.harvard.edu/china/PDF/PDF06/AQUILEGIA.pdf

Ok, newbie here, and now I'm dizzy-headed from reading about the woes of seed parentage. From all the seeds I've sent off in seed swaps, where I listed the package with the cultivar name, I suppose the plant police will be looking for me come spring. Help me understand this please; if two cultivars of, let's say, Echinacea 'White Swan' and 'Mangus' cross pollenated, it would be wrong to use the cultivar's name on my seed packages from either plant? If yes, then I'm a goner.

Deborah♥

Well, welcome to the world of goners. Big deal. Don't worry about it. We're all goners or have been goners at one point in time or another and anyone who would have you believe otherwise is just a flat out silly goose. Let he/she who is not or never has been a goner throw the first stone. Guess there won't be any stone throwing.

I believe both of those cultivars are from Echinacea purpurea. Over time, I suspect they'll revert to type which would be E. purpurea. If you are harvesting seed from your E. 'White Swan', I would label your seed packets like this-
Echinacea 'White Swan' x open pollinated

If you harvest your seed from the 'Magnus'. I would label it like this-
Echinacea 'Magnus' x open pollinated

I have 'White Swan' here. I leave most of the seed on the plant but when I handed out a few packets, I labeled it like this-
Echinacea 'White Swan' x ?
I was too darn lazy to write out open pollinated and figured the ? would let my friends know that I didn't have a clue who Daddy was.

Do your best to let people know if you can. That way when their 'White Swan' seed from you germinates and matures to flower a raspberry red, passionate purple, or some pastel thereof in and amongst flowers they have in their moon garden... they don't think you lost your marbles when collecting your seed.

Thanks for the links, Equil. I'm going to check them tomorrow when my mind is fresh. Deborah, I think most of us use cultivar names sometimes to describe the plant we collected seeds from. However, unless a person labels the seeds as 'commercial', one has to assume that they have collected the seed in an open pollinated area. I usually try to keep my plants separated out a bit to avoid hanky panky, but one never knows. If you have several varieties of echinacea in the same bed, it would probably be best just to throw the seeds in together as a mix, I think. If you only grow the white ones, I'd call them white or from white swan.

Guess we were posting at the same time. I hadn't thought of adding open pollinated to the seed packet. That's a good idea.

I have a girlfriend who labels her Sarracenia seed by writing the binomial of the seed it was collected from x "Daddy was a Rolling Stone". Sort of a joke that plant geeks are going to pick up on but probably best to do it as you suggested by adding the word mix after the common name/scientific name or by adding the words open pollinated to the pack.

Which reminds me, common names. I can't tell you the weird things that have sprouted over here because of the use of common names. You should have seen my face when I receieved a gift of seed of Oyster Plant from a native plant enthusiast that I assumed was going to be Nothocalais cuspidata that grew out as Tragopogon porrifolius. I sent him back the plants and drew a big smiley face on the outside of the box to tease him. I really try hard to use both the scientific name and the common name of plants these days. If I get lazy, I must admit I only write the scientific name.

This makes so much sense and is so reassuring -- thanks. This is what I kept thinking was right, but isn't spoken of in the seed trading forums. And I'm totally fine with having open pollinated seed -- just didn't understand the labeling that didn't reflect that.

Ditto, happy_macomb. The reassurance and explaination in layman's terms is much appreciated.

Wintersown.org has the following confirming information: http://www.wintersown.org/wseo1/Sowing_Hybrid_Seeds.html

What a comforting link. I've reviewed this site many times but how I missed this topic I don't know. Lots of good information to go back and read. Still finding things I overlooked or didn't click on.

I can really agree with the link to wintersown.org. The lovely beauty in the picture I posted is most likely the result of the hanky panky of these two. It is such a lovely fellow, with the deep veining of the Tiger and the blue & bronze of the other. I call it my Bronze Tiger.

Eye of the Tiger: http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/57984/index.html and Velour Blue Bronze: http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/31639/index.html

Here is one with less blue, more bronze.

Plant hanky panky! Too funny!

Here's how I'd label that little pretty since you didn't gather the seed yourself meaning not only was Daddy a Rolling Stone but Momma took off for parts unknown-
Viola spp. (Viola ? x Viola ?)

Great, Equil! I guess I'm going to need some creative names to add to my tradelist now that it is revised. It looks like I can't post my pictures anymore. They will have to be added to the PlantFiles, and where does one post pictures for these little by-blows?

Hmmm, Viola "Hearts Awandered" for your little Pansy by blow- nyuk nyuk nyuk.

The " and " should indicate it's not a registered cultivar as opposed to using ' and '.

Unfortunately, I don't believe the PlantFiles are set up to accommodate plant mutts. You'll just have to share them with people who appreciate them... like me and the others posting here in this thread. Or better yet, you could start a whole new thread and we could all play the "name Weeze's viola" game.

Lordie lordie lordie! If there are any taxonomists out there peeking in at this thread right now they're probably having grabbers. Quick fast, grab your viola and run for cover lest the plant police find us.

The problem with the refurbished Trade Lists is that I can't post a picture of my little gems. The photos appear from the PF as soon as you type in the species. :( How in the world can I trade my viola 'Corner Box Mix', the offspring of Penny Orchid Frost, Velour Blue Bronze, Eye of the Tiger, and Babyface Primrose, all viola cultivars.

I don't trade and if I've had a lot of excess seed in the past, I simply started a give away thread in the appropriate forum. Last year I brought lots of excess plants to a RU just to unload them. Other than that, I give excess plant material away to friends and neighbors. Weeze, I don't think I could keep track of trades like you do anyway. My mind doesn't work like that. It's much easier for me to just unload excess without having to keep track and call it a day and I have to tell you that the few times I was looking for an oddball plant, it was gifted to me so I was thrilled. I seriously don't think I have the patience for keeping track of trades anyway... maybe someday when I grow up ;)

In all reality, there were other issues with trading so I wiped out my plant lists and made my grow lists in my garden diary private. I was getting a tremendous number of people from outside the country with cases of the gimmies and I guess they liked what I was growing. Lots of collectors out there. Most people do like rare, threatened, and endangered plants and then there are all the carnivorous and insectivorous plant lovers out there. I'm happy to give away excess seed and I'm happy to share at RUs but I don't want to deal with phytos and such for people outside the US. It's not that I couldn't export legally because all my paperwork is in place so I could, I just don't want to end up in the awkward position of telling a member from overseas, "Sure, I can give you the seed for free but I'll have to collect $90 (what I would get charged) from you for a phytosanitary certificate that will be required of me to be able to ship to you first and then I need to see all of your paperwork to make sure you've applied for the requisite permits from your Country so all of this is above board so I don't end up in trouble if your package is intercepted". In other words, I'm not breaking the law and I don't want to be placed in the unenviable position of having people suggest that I do so by just "sending" it to them and writing something else other than seed or a plant on the customs documents like others do. I'm not a nursery, I'm a hobbyist and I grow my plants for the sake of preservation and restoration as well as for special projects such as when I volunteer in the community working with kids. That being said, I don't know what the heck we're all going to do other than maybe ask Dave to create a plant mutt category or somehow enable people who are trying to trade NOIDs the opportunity to post a photo or two. There are many beautiful mixes out there and I don't think it was the intent to exclude people from being able to list a plant properly. I bet the Admins would address this issue as fast as they could because otherwise, members will just start lopping plants into the closest category to be able to trade.

Maybe one of us should suggest a category for NOID that could include photos of what's being offered for trade here-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/688920/

Wanna flip a cyber coin?

Weezin--there are some threads on the DG forum about the new tradelists, I bet if you ask over there for Dave to put in the ability to add your own pics he would consider it. I'm sure lots of people trade things that aren't in Plant Files and can't be added because of uncertainty around the exact ID, etc so it would be nice if you could add pictures on your own too. I'm not following those threads very well though so maybe you or someone else already asked for this!