I'd like a variety of opinions on this, please share.

On Fridays, I shop for and deliver groceries to a local shelter. The residents are temporary, their stays can vary from days to six months, depending on their situations. The money I use to shop has been given to me from my church. The grocery list is given to me by the shelter, usually the social worker who manages the shelter e mails it to me the night before.


I often shop with another woman from church, it varies. Sometimes the same person for a while, sometimes a new person every week. I usually find out when I stop by the church office for money.

I generally shop at a place at the place closest to the shelter, for ease in getting frozen stuff to them the most quickly. I use store fliers for coupons when I go in. I sometimes run over on money if I see a good bargain and that comes out of my pocket. In fact, I almost always run over so I don't have to hold onto the church's money till next week and account for it.

Another person does their Costco runs where applicable.

Today for the first time I had the other church volunteer get a bit opinionated about the list. She seemed to feel the person(s) who made up the list were being greedy or wasteful.

Some examples: There were things on the list like, "Snickers candy bars". She wouldn't buy them. Bottled water was on the list. She refused to buy it, saying the tap water was good enough. (I don't know, I've never had the water there, I do not know if it is well or county supplied.) "Chocolate chip cookies" were on the list, she bought the ingredients for the cookies, but not the pre-made ones.

Now, to be honest, I can see where she's coming from. When I shop for my family, I buy organic. I buy whole foods. I try to do as much of my shopping at farmer's markets and local co-ops as I can. I try to "pre-cycle". For me it is both an environmental and personal health decision.

But I've never changed the list. I figured it was their list, and given the fact that they are uprooted from their lives, willingly or no, and in this place...it's got to be disheartening and difficult, and who am I to deny someone some chocolate chip cookies, for goodness sake? But on the other hand...it's not my money. Although no one has ever said to me, "You have a responsibility to carefully steward this $100 a week", I guess there is a certain implicit trust that comes along with someone handing me this cash every week. That I'll do the right thing...

Where there was a decision to be made before, I made it based on my own personal shopping habits. If the list said, "1 jar spaghetti sauce" I'd buy what I'd have bought to feed my kids if I were the one standing in front of the display. Cause... I was. : ) And that meant...sometimes, they got the generic, sometimes, they got whatever was on sale, sometimes, they got the "premium", because that's what I would have choosen if it was something that really made a difference to me.

But there are arguments to be made either way.

I was not sure how I feel about it.

Now that it has come up, you can be sure I WILL ask the person who gives me the money how SHE feels about it, but as far as I know, this money comes from the general collection at our church...so unless I bring it up at a church wide meeting, I'm really never going to have a quorum.

Do you mind being my church, for a little bit, and give me some opinions?

I see nothing wrong in providing people at the shelter with the occasional snickers bar or bottled water (maybe the water is for when they walk out, since I doubt there are many "drinkable water sources" where they "live" during the day. I doubt the shelter is providing them "high on life" with fancy foods & special treats all the time... but I get a picture in my head of a small child coming in with their mom, not having had a candy bar for over a month... getting one candy bar (after a healthy meal, of course) may be the only bright spot in their whole week.

I'm agreeing with you... A little spoiling is okay, even in a shelter.

I would trust the judgment of the social worker who makes the list. He or she is the one who knows who's there, and what they need.

It's funny I was thinking about this doing food baskets. I buy healthy and avoid snacks, and grow my vegetables. Many people don't know how to use fresh vegetables (I was one, and am still learning). I don't think crisis is a time to try to force more change on people.

I've been known to eat a fair amount of goopy chocolate stuff in crisis even though I know it's not health food. Food is more than physical nutrition at times like that.

Food may be a control issue for your shopping partner.

While I can 'slightly' appreciate the 'they eat what they get' mentality,
it doesn't seem to have a place in this situation, nor does this
other person have a right to make such a determination of the
recipient's worthiness of chocolate chip cookies or otherwise.

Unless the other person donated the full amount to pay for the
groceries, I would say he or she should take issue up with the list maker.

Suggestions would be nice, but outright "No bottled water, drink from the sink"
attitude seems very out of place in a church setting. Give but be greedy?
Provide but be particular? I don't think someone should be handed shrimp
and steak, but for pity's sake, when pre-made cookies stir up such an attitude
in that other person, imagine what feelings are held in even deeper?

If it were myself, I would make suggestions to the list maker or show her
how to make the list longer for less money, or tell the other person picking
the list apart to do so.

It sounds like you are a kind hearted person. Keep up the good work!

:-) KM

There may be health and hygiene reasons as well. Tap water is no good if you don't have clean dishes or don't get to wash your hands often and would contaminate what you have in a cup. Plus, the empty bottle may come in handy when they can refill it from a tap and recap it. The social worker has probably thought all of this through to come up with the most practical choices.

Cooking the items from scratch and then giving it to them may not be an option either. You may have read about the big scandal about a month ago when Fairfax officials passed a law prohibiting the service of home-cooked foods and the giving of home-cooked foods to the homeless. This would have impacted churches and other non-profits that weren't going to be able to provide hot meals anymore. The public outrage was so tremendous that they rescinded it. And while it may not be the most balanced meal, candy bars may make some sense for people who get don't eat too often and can use the calories. Some of them aren't that much different from those "sports bars" costing twice as much. On a cost-per-calorie basis, it may make a lot of sense.

This message was edited Feb 2, 2007 5:36 PM

This message was edited Feb 2, 2007 8:11 PM

Andidandi, I know it was that way in some of the Virginia public school systems...for a while we had a little girl staying with us and I tried to send in cupcakes for her birthday. Her teacher called me to tell me she couldn't give them to the kids and that my little girl was upset....so I made an emergency run to the grocery store for store bought cupcakes. Half as good for them and three times the money.

D Mc D, once again, what you say really chimes for me. : )

Angel, yes, that image is exactly what kept me buying "junk". It is not normal for them to get kids there, but it happens very occasionally.

Wuvie, thank you. :)

I saw your other thread in which you explain that it's a shelter for battered women. Does it make a difference? Umm, yeah, I think so, I agree I with you

Having worked in shelters after Katrina and Rita I can't stress enough to please follow the list given. If it's written on the list then it's needed and listed for a reason. Those candy bars that your shopping partner poo poo'd might be for diabetic's to use as a quick fix for low sugar etc. The reasons for bottled water have been listed.

While I can a understand the questions this might bring up to the normal person (such as your parnter) until you work or are in that position it is hard to know what is and isn't needed.

Your church must have felt that the shelter is trustworthy to recieve the donation of groceries. It stands to reason that the shelter knows what items they need, or will be suitable, for their clients. I think the person you were shopping with just has a different attitude, it's too bad she wants to second guess the social worker. I don't find anything wrong with providing some small kindness's such as cookies, bottled water, as long as the list in general is needed food items. Keep up the good work!

I say, dump the helper unless she's gonna make the cookies herself. It's not like they asked for filets, fer cryin' out loud.

Sheesh!

well, this is good, I really appreciate the feed back.

It would never have occured to me to say something like, "The bottled water may be for emergencies." or, "The candy might be for someone with blood sugar issues."

All perfectly valid points...not to mention the "homemade vs commercial" thing I hadn't considered at ALL.

So I'll stick to my list the way I've been doing, and I have all thes good things to point out if I get that lady again. But I don't think I will. She seemed like she might have a lot of other more important stuff to do. ;

LOL one can hope so!

She was a bossy bitter control freak. (no, no not judgemental eh?) LOL I don't know, I doubt you could make a decent point to her and have her actually listen, but worth a shot if you get stuck with her again. There are those who live on the surface and do not think beyond themselves. Kinda like some who clear their conscience by going out of their way to help, but being "put out" by it the whole time or look down on those they're helping..... which IMO cancels the good deed totally out. Certainly doesn't go toward their good Kharma. ;) At least you are a thinker!

Well said, Jenks!

Luna, keep your chin up and keep being the kind soul you truly are!

A friend of mine asked me to buy her a pack of cigarettes. She had quit smoking for urgent health reasons. I quit some 30 years ago. But she had experienced some particular trauma that day and she just wanted the cigarettes. I went to the store and got them for her. Her decision, not mine. On another occasion, a friend wanted me to get her a sack of pork skins. She had just been diagnosed with cancer. I didn't take her money and I refused to go to the store for her.
I guess I can understand how a person would really need a cigarette. Cannot understand how a person with cancer needs to eat a sack of fried pork skins.

If you agreed to take the list, then you should buy what's on it. Not your decision to edit the list.

I'm sorry Gloria! I just have to ask....why can't a person with cancer have pork skins? LOL Just curious as to why a cigarette is OK and a pork skin isn't....

Well, both are carcinogens.

If you watch old war movies, for many a dying soldier, one last smoke before I go, was the method of choice for one's dying breath. Friend A has already been planning her funeral. She wouldn't ask for a cigarette, unless she really really needed one. I respect her as a friend, and respect her wishes even though I personally choose not to smoke. That one cigarette is not going to change the course of history.

Friend B, is a 30 year old junk food junkie. She needs to learn about taking responsability for her cancer and the contribution she is making to it. I do not respect her decision to mindlessly ingest carcinogenic food. If she learns to eat healthier food, it could change the course of her history -- her kids perhaps will have a mother when she is 50 instead of a memory.

Anyhow, I never agreed to take money and buy her pork skins. If you take the money, and have a list of what you are supposed to buy, that is sort of a contract. You have agreed to get what's on the list.

Cookies and candy bars as snacks in a stressful environment can have soothing effects on a person at any age. To insist they make them on site is just silly. These places have all they can do to prepare meals and feed everyone. To insist that a staff who is probably made up of mostly volunteers use the time they have available to bake is silly. That time can always be used in more constructive ways to the benifit of the people they are helping. Ditto for fresh vegetables. Sometimes there is just too much time involved in prep work to make it practical on a daily basis in a shelter environment. In this setting the fresh baked cookies or farm fresh vegetables would be the luxury items!

I could understand a Church group not being willing to pay for any item they would not want their members to use such as alcoholic beverages for some religions or coffee and tea for others but other than that there is no need for the shopper to second guess the social workers listed items and if coffee is ok for the church members it should be ok for those they are assisting.

Unless Sister Bertha-better-than-you is wearing a black robe and carrying a gavel, it isn't her place to judge.

mg

luna_baby: briefly I worked as manager for some 50 apartments for the elderly and disabled. On Christmas, some women who never really identified themselves, brought presents and some kind of food in a small basket for every single resident. Do you have any idea what impact that had on those forgotten and disadvantaged people. They were still talking about it the next summer! You are doing good work and people you will never know do appreciate it.

Ah. Well that makes a bit more sense to me now. I had no idea pork skins were a carcinogen. I was thinking that if a friend had cancer, I'd bring her anything! But each situation...etc etc. blah blah..lol I have a similar such friend who is now on the verge of diabetes. She's lost 70lbs since she found out, but I still worry.

We did an interesting thread in the Healthy Living Forum when Starfly was diagnosed with diabetes, and had a hypoglycemic episode winding up in the hospital. A few years ago the same thing happened to me. Starfly is doing great now, I understand. I wish I had all the information that we gave to her, when I was first diagnosed. It is a fine line though, because everyone is different and they have to assimilate themselves --whatever that may be -- to that relentless disease. And its number one characteristics seems to be, well maybe I don't really have it. Denial is part of the disease.

Ok just to let ya'll know...I get Cancer and ask for pork rinds somebody better give em to me! I've had a Mother and several friends who have had and have cancer now and something that small to them could be the one thing they crave and might be the only thing they want to eat for that day. It's a small thing but when they have the stress of something larger why sweat the small stuff.

This thread was a very good read. I think everyone was on target but I have to agree with the ones that said, what's the difference between the ciggy and the pork rind? Friend B has to come to the place herself where she will take responsibility. JMHO :)

My dad always said, if you are donating the money, you are done with it - so whoever is running the charity you give it to decides what to use it for. If the list says snickers bar, I'd get the snickers bar. And just where are these peeps supposed to be able to mix and bake something?

i would get whatever was on the list.

The lady in the church office wasn't there, today, so I'm still waiting to talk to her.

Thank you all for your thoughts and comments, it will help me during my discussion with her. I really appreciate it and I'll let you know what they (the church, or her, or whichever official, weighs in.

Obviously that woman has never been hungry or wanted chocolate. What a shame that her actions can negatate the good intentions of other people. I hope the Lord richly blesses you for your good works and concern for other people. LIZ

Hey luna... the lady that "helped you modify the list"... What sort of volunteering-work experience does she have? Maybe she's just not familiar with shelter-situations, doesn't understand why the snickers bars & chocolate-chip cookies...

I don't know, Angel, the truth is, this is the church we went to when we lived "down in the city" and we've stopped going. We still do the groups we've always done, DH runs what they call a 'small group ministry' (basically just a support group, they have a whole network of them), and I do this little bit, the shopping....we both do a lot of stuff actually now that I think about it, but we don't actually go to the services because Sundays are just hard to work into the schedule with what is now an hour commute. This woman, I hadn't met her before and I think she must be new. They let her come with me to do the shopping, but she wasn't supposed to deliver it. (They are big on secrecy at the shelter, and I can't say I blame them, seeing some of what I've seen.)

We've talked about changing churches, there is another Universalist Unitarian Church within 15 minutes, but DH has gone to this one for 20 years. So...

I was just thinking, if she helps you again, maybe try to get to know her... it's possible she isn't familiar enough with the shelter to understand why they asked for those things. The more I tried to understand her reasons, the more sense it makes. Maybe she confused the shelter situation with a soup-kitchen, and thinks the folks there come, eat, and leave. In that situation, I would wonder why the shelter folks wouldn't home-bake the cookies, and wonder why they'd need bottled water to sit & eat. Once you get clarification from the church folks that "help organize the shopping", maybe try to get to know the lady that was shopping with you a little more. Give her a chance before you assume she's just cheap... I'm just as guilty as everyone else in making this assumption.

Good point angelsong. You are a kind person to give her the benefit of the doubt.

To those of us who have never been in that situation (living in a shelter), it may be difficult to understand what exactly goes on, what people are feeling, the heartache, misery, etc. As someone mentioned previously, food is not always for physical nourishment. We need to nourish our emotions/feelings as well. Something as simple as a candy bar or cookie could lift the spirits of a lonely child.

Keep up the good work Luna.

Liz

This is an interesting thread. I agree with the opinions on the posts and I would say that what you have been doing with your choices would be my choices also.

The city I live in has many disadvantaged people. I know some children in the middle schools who live out of shelters. My husband pressure cleaned a shelter for battered children for the United Way's "Day of Caring". It's a place people don't know even exists because of the security needed to protect them. I think there is a high probability of children being at your shelter. A cookie or candy bar may be their only bright spot of the day. Sometimes it's hard for people who have not been in that circumstance to really grasp how dismal it is. Perhaps with more volunteer experience the new person will understand.

I will say the one thing that really ticked me off was that she purchased the ingredients for cookies. I volunteer a lot and there is always a shortage of volunteers so she shouldn't think that people are there with time for baking. She should have volunteered to take the ingredients home to bake the cookies then have them dropped off if she felt so strongly about it.

Also, food is not just food, but also memories. Can you imagine growing up without cookies and milk. Which brings me off topic to pork rinds. At my first job at Carvel's when I was 16 I would walk across the street to get a bag of pork rinds after work. I could never find pork rinds like that since. Bad for me, sure, but what a great food memory of a fun time in my life that I wouldn't mind recreating if I could. Certainly, if I was trying to survive cancer I wouldn't be doing that daily though.

Luna_baby, thank you for lending a helping hand. Your help makes a big difference in these people's lives.

Actually, Angel, I never assumed it was a "cheap" thing. The church is in a relatively wealthy area...I assumed, I always assumed, it was about healthy choices and/or doing the environmentally correct issue...the cookies being a healthier choice when you make them, the tap water vs plastic botttles. However, I could be reading into that, because that would be MY bias.

That said, it doesn't really matter what her reasons were, I'm sure they are valid and that they have a point. The reality is......how do the people involved want me to spend the money.....but because the chances are I am never going to get a clear mandate on that (because the shelter situation changes and because the money for the groceries is coming out of the general fund, and so to get a decision I'd need to ask everyone who ever donated to the general fund, not likely!), I thought I'd get a broad feel based on a realtively broad swath of people...DG. : )

I connected with the lady at chuch via telephone this morning and she told me to just keep on doing what I was doing....she's never heard a peep from the shelter since I started the shopping, and they DID complain before when there was another shopper, so it's not that they are just afraid to bite the hand that feeds them, so to speak.

Thank you all. I do appreciate it.

well done Luna. I would think if she was concerned about the budget going to waste you could buy pre-made cookies off the shelf...you get less cookies but less cost and certainly less time!

Great posts, Luna,

Hope you'll let us know what turns out if you have an opportunity to
speak with the shopping list lady.

Karen Marie

Good for you!
How sad that a homeless shelter had to complain about a shopper. I realize the shoppers are volunteers too, but if you don't want to help, just don't! Don't bring your own agenda into it!

THe women (and kids) are in a crisis situation, possibly traumatized or fearing for their lives. This isn't a time to ask them to please precycle, or avoid trans fats!

D, they didn't complain about the shopping, they were upset cause she brought her husband with her to unload things.

Some of the residents were uncomfortable.

I had to promise never to bring anyone with me, they made an exception for Sophie because when I started she was still nursing.

I agree entirely with dmcdevitt above. Much more concisely put, than I tried to state it. These people are in a crisis situation. Not a time to teach lifestyle changes. That is an different cup of tea entirely. And thank you for contributing your time without judging the people who need help the most. I have seen some of these people here. In fact a surprising number of the one's I knew two years ago, have met with violent deaths. Make's you wonder, "Couldn't I have done SOMETHING?"

I can see that, luna. Had a friend who was in danger when her H was released from psych ward after threatening her...She needed to go somewhere safe but H was a fireman, and they have to know where the shelters are. It really made me think about how frightening life can be for some people. How could you ever feel safe after that? And how many of the guys make good on their threats? An awful lot it seems./