Co-ops and Non-profit endeavors; many thoughts and questions

I am now hosting two co-ops, and as result of the enthusiasm spread to me by others here, have decided to try to try my hand at cut flowers and potted plants for sale at the teeny tiny local Farmer's Market this summer. This would then make me unable to host any more co-ops per the AUP, which I understand.

However, I like hosting the co-ops, even if it does involve a couple of week's worth of full time work. It's a challenge and a learning experience.

Now, maybe it's all just a black and white issue, with no shades of grey, but I'm going to put it out here anyway for discussion.

The reason I want to set up at the Farmer's Market is because I do dog rescue here in my reservation community. I get no outside money from anyone, and my food bill alone is in the neighborhood of $1200 per year, never mind flea treatments, mange and heartworm meds, vet bills, etc. I do get discounted or free spay and neuters, but still, each trip to town to have that done is $30 round trip. I will be amazed if I profit $100 per week during the 10 weeks of the market, but that will certainly help a lot in the rescue department.

So, does being a non-profit (I can be tribally made one for a small fee) change the "vendor" status at all?

I won't be setting up at the market until July 4th. Is that my cut-off date for hosting a coop? Could I host one for fall bulb delivery before then? Am I just crazy to want to do all this work for others on DG for free, and to feed stray dogs? Also, what if I completely bomb at selling all that I plant, and decide not to do it again? It is not something I'll do anywhere but at that market, and more or less, this summer is a test.

guess i don't know the rules on daves. sounds like if you sell plants for a profit that you are not allowed to host a co-op? is that it?

I don't know the rules, but it seems to me selling locally shouldn't exclude you from doing coops on daves. but that's just my opinion.

Laura~
IMO, I don't think there would be a conflict of interest. As long as the co ops aren't supporting your small business venture.But that would be a decision that is up to Dave and Terry, I would think.
~Dayna

Seems to me the two things aren't much related --and any conflict of interest, which is why the rule was made would be negligible. Why don't you post on the Dave's Garden forum where Dave or Terry might see the post and just lay it out for them? I would have no problem being in a coop with you as hostess, and from what I've seen on the boards, would actively seek out your coops.

Regarding dog rescue and the costs involved, Dave, give this girl a break!!!! Whatever money a market coop brings in isn't a drop in the bucket! Dog rescue is very time consuming and money burning! I ran rescue for years, literally transporting and a little fostering, but when gas went above $1.35 a gallon I had to quit. Um, that was a long time ago! LOL!

Suzy

I would think that as long as you are not trying to sell your products on DG, that you're safe. Seems to me that selling a few cut flowers locally is just a side hobby and not really a business. If you're really worried about it, just don't mention it again.

Girlfriend!
You are dating yourself with the $1.35 a gallon of gas thing. :)
Dayna

Laura, I read the rules. It really doesn't go into any detail, and I think that is to keep it 'black and white' as you say. Too bad they don't have that little 'non-profit' exclusion.

If I was you I would ask the 'owners' this question about the non- profit vendor question. But I would venture to guess that you are still a vendor and that is that.

Now, I don't think you are a Vendor until you actually start your business. Right now you are just preparing to sell, but haven't sold yet, so you are NOT a vendor yet. Anything could happen b/t now and then. So I would think a fall bulb co-op delivered b/f you start selling is ok.

Are you crazy for doing all this free work for us at daves and for the dogs ... maybe just a little. ☺
But we love you for it and I'm sure the dogs do too.
And if you are not crazy now, you will be by the end of the co-ops (so they say)!

IMHO, I think Dave's should let the non profit venors go ahead and put on co-ops, but then it would be so hard to prove that you are non-profit.

I think the way the rule is written it would prohibit you from organizing, just like toofewanimals said I think it's to keep things black and white and minimize the chances for some vendor abusing the system, otherwise Dave would have to be dealing every day with questions from a vendor who thought they might be in a gray area of the rules. Even if you're not allowed to be the coop organizer though, I've noticed on a lot of coops there are several other people who devote a lot of time to helping keep track of orders and other things to help the organizer, and I don't see any reason why you couldn't play that sort of role.

This message was edited May 25, 2010 6:39 PM

Unfortunately the rules are the rules, and the way the rule is written it forbids "any vendor of live gardening related materials" from organizing coops. One might argue about whether cut flowers still count as live, but 4paws also mentioned small potted plants which would definitely count as live gardening related materials. The only thing that might make this situation special is the non-profit aspect--do you still count as a "vendor" if you're nonprofit? That's a question only Dave or one of the admins could answer.

I think there are a lot of people who would agree with you that we wouldn't have an issue with vendors organizing coops as long as there was full disclosure, etc, but allowing some gray areas in the rules would mean Dave and the admins would have to spend way too much of their time addressing appropriate vs inappropriate use of coops, so I think that's why the rule was written to be very much black and white. There were problems with the coops a while ago which caused them to be eliminated (it was before I joined DG so I don't know the details), but when Dave re-instituted them he wanted to minimize the chances of any of the problems and abuses that caused them to be shut down in the first place and minimize the amount of time he and the admins would have to spend managing the coop system, and I think this rule was one of the ways to do that. So while it would be nice if great, ethical vendors could organize coops (especially if it was something unrelated to their business), I'd rather miss out on a couple good coop organizers than have the whole system shut down again when someone abuses it.

I totally agree with redalpha's statement, "I don't even have a problem with truly casual so-called "vendors" doing a co-op, as long as there is full disclosure." Personally, I don't have a problem with any good deals that come along the pike on Dave's Garden. Such as a vendor advertising in the classifieds on DG a special discount for Dave's Garden subscribers. That would suit me just fine. To go a step further, if 4paws wants to run a sale though the classifieds would that be OK as long as she paid the advertising fee? Patti

Laura - I know there is a special place reserved for you in Heaven for taking care of those that can't take care of themselves. I can't imagine what the big deal would be if you sold cut flowers at your local FM, but I do understand the reasoning behind the rules. I agree, go to the top and ask. The worst they can say is "NO", and that only hurts a little while.


Susan

If you read the two posts from Terry on June 26, 2006 in this thread, it helps clarify the rules around vendors (as well as some of the reasoning behind why vendors can't organize coops):
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/583595/

This is what Terry wrote in that thread, and other places as well. I've read it often.
Quoted:
Selling a few plants occasionally (or selling anything else) on eBay doesn't make you a vendor.

So how do you know if you're a vendor? If you're not sure, ask yourself the following questions:

1) Do you hold yourself out as a plant/seed/bulb vendor to others (here or elsewhere)?
2) Do you maintain an eBay store where you sell plants or plant material?
3) Do you you regularly offer plants or plant materials through eBay, the Lily Auction, or elsewhere?
4) Do you have a website or a permanent listing somewhere of plants for sale?
5) Are you listed in the Watchdog or other plant/seed/bulb directories?
6) Do you have business cards or literature that you give to others to market your plant/seed/bulb business?
7) Do you open your garden up to the public and sell plants locally (at home, or through flea markets, farmers' markets, etc.)?
8) Are you holding yourself out as a retail vendor to the wholesalers you're buying from?
9) Are you buying plants to re-sell to customers as part of a co-op, even if you're passing them along at-cost to the other participants?

If you answered yes to one or more of those questions, then you're a vendor.

Beyond that, it really comes down to an ethics issue. You may not be successful (yet.) You may not sell many plants (yet.) But if you are attempting to make a go of selling plants as a profession (full- or part-time), then you're a vendor. Do you consider yourself a vendor by these standards, or your own? If you do, then you are one.

#9 is the only one I can say I will be doing, but only for a short period, more or less for a special event. However, if I don't go the potted plant route, and only sell cut flowers, then they are not live. I'd also get exposure for the dogs at the market. I've been asked to provide food, too, as that's something I'm a bit known for. I'm thinking about on the spot gazpacho, but that's another story.

(I am so good at working for free! lol)

Hmmm...what if I didn't sell plants, but raffled them (raffles are very, very popular here, as are Bingo games), or asked for a "suggested donation" verses a set price? I honestly don't think of myself as a vendor and I'm not going to even pay to be at the market.

Advertising in the classifieds could be an alternative way of organizing a coop; no problem paying the fee. Another idea I had was - why not a paid coop forum and a regular coop forum? Dave has paid advertisers, why not a fee to organize a coop, which would be built into the pricing of plants for sale?

So, if it were say, The Friends of the Hoopa Library that organized a sale, and bought plants through the co-op, one of the members of the Friends couldn't organize the co-op....

Isn't this where we ask the bosses about stuff?
:-)

4Paws, you are so right about asking the bosses. If one of them don't respond in the next day or so, copy and paste your original question and send it to the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of this page. You will get an answer very shortly. The "bosses" :-0 are probably very busy with their new business venture getting launched this weekend.

Carmen

The classified ads area is the perfect place for anyone (vendor or otherwise) to sell items, whether it's at cost or for a profit. No one should expect that an item offered via a classified ad is non-profit (although it might be), and they can hold the seller to the standards they would any other vendor.

That keeps things much clearer in the co-op forum, rather than trying to permit *some* vendors under *some* circumstances to co-op *some* items.

The co-op forum was reintroduced with just one rule: the AUP will be followed, including the no self-promotion rule. We can't relax the rule for some people and/or some situations without acting as a co-op gatekeeper and deciding which co-ops are permitted and which aren't - we promised ourselves we wouldn't ever act in that capacity again.

Ok, so - until July 4, or whenever I sell my first live plant, I'm not a vendor.

Where do cut flowers fall?

We're not going to do a physical audit of anyone's home business to see precisely what you're selling. But if you aren't sure how to answer the "am I or am I not" question, I (personally) would err on the side of caution - a $5 ad is pretty cheap compared to the risk of appearing to try to skirt the rules.

A few people last year found themselves in an awkward position over this issue. My guess is they somehow rationalized to themselves that the no-vendors rule didn't apply to them when it came to co-ops, but through their actions and words it became evident they were in the hort trade, or were trying to be. Handing out business cards with the co-op "orders", or letting it slip your own portion of the order is for re-selling elsewhere reflects badly on a person's individual integrity and their business ethics.

Some people see nothing wrong with that type of duplicity. But that doesn't make our AUP clause a bad rule, or a one that should be abolished. (Some people see nothing wrong with breaking any rule that isn't convenient. For example, many people think it's okay to exceed the speed limit or run red lights as long as you don't get caught. That doesn't mean we should remove all speed limits and stop lights just so they can do it without breaking any laws or risk losing their license ;o)

The rules are what they are - if you choose to break them, you risk losing the trust of those around you - or worse, forfeiting your membership here.

If I wasn't a person of integrity, I'd not be bringing this to anyone's attention. I certainly would think you are not suggesting I am anything but.

Again, cut flowers, as someone on this thread pointed out, are not live plants.

It feels as if I'm being chastised before anything has happened, and my goodwill feeling is quickly evaporating.

Certainly, donating what amounts to about three+ weeks of full time work on co-ops for which I gain nothing but a few dollars of free shipping is not worth that. In fact, it was my original intention to not even buy anything from Pacific Calla, the co-op I just closed the order thread for. However, through the encouragement of others, I am now actively exploring our tiny FM.

No disagreement regarding the classified ad rate was expressed, either.

:-(

I don't see where anyone is questioning your integrity or chastising you. Everyone here knows you have good intentions, maybe I'm missing something, but all I'm seeing here is people who either support you and think that you ought to be able to still run coops, or people trying to clarify what the rules are, which is why you posted in the first place. I don't think anyone intended to imply that you were lacking in integrity, that's certainly not how it comes across to me as I read this.

I felt (and I have a right to my feelings, ecrane3) that Terry's post was directed at me without answering the question about cut flowers, as if I was trying to find a way to justify any actions I might take in the future here. Perhaps the use of "you" felt too close to home, and as an honest person, I get ruffled when that is questioned, as I take extra care to protect my integrity.

I've not hidden anything and have no reason to.
In fact, I'd not thought much about raising money with plants because of the AUP here - but organizing future co-ops is not worth a fight, skirting issues, or being "duplicit."

That's that.

Selling things locally at a farmers market does not make you a vendor, plus I think 4paws should be greatly applauded for her charity work. I for one thinks she's super.

I think Terry missed the major point of your question. Maybe she or Dave will re-address it today.

My post wasn't directed at anyone - it was intended as a general, philosophical take on sorting out two questions "am I a vendor" and "why does DG have this rule when I don't have a problem with vendors running co-ops?" (Which we've encountered several times - and yes, I probably do get a little defensive when put on the spot of defending this particular rule yet again ;o)

4Paws, I can't tell you where cut flowers fall because I'm not sure what you mean. However, let me take a couple stabs at it:

1) If you're selling cut flowers completely independent of any co-ops, then no, you're not a vendor, unless....

2) If your cut flower stock comes (or will come) from plants you bought as a co-op organizer, then you are using co-ops to further your own business, which means you are (technically) a vendor.

3) If you're trying to co-op cut flowers, then I'm just really confused, because it would seem they will be awfully wilted by the time they get to their homes (*grin*)

4paws, you are absolutely entitled to feel how you want and I wasn't trying to say you shouldn't, I was just pointing out that to me reading the thread, nothing came across as attacking you personally or questioning your integrity, so I didn't think that was what people intended in their posts. That's all! Since these are just words on a page and you can't hear tone of voice, see body language, etc sometimes it's easy to misinterpret intentions, so I was just trying to make you feel better that I didn't, feel that people intended to make you feel bad.

4 paws, Many people here know I had some issues with the "rules" and how they were written when co-ops came back.

I think the defining items on the scale were:

One type of sale: You dig up your hosta and have enough to divide it into four pieces but you only have room to replant 2 of them so you offer the other two on Ebay, where you might post a plant once a year.

A different type of sale: You constantly dig up plants and sell them. People know you sell them. You post something for sale on a daily basis. Heck, your cute personal website has a sale page of your extra 200 plants you don't have room for (and the sale allows you to buy MORE!). Oh, what the heck, let's just do group purchases too....... I'm not really a vendor even if I buy extra plants to sell extra plants...

Another thing that rules try to prevent:

You buy your personal business stuff from Company A. Then you do co-ops with Company A. Company A really starts liking you because you are throwing business their way. To thank you, they start discounting your personal stuff. That is my understanding of the favoritism/personal gain part of the rules. It's one thing if they throw in a pack of seeds or a free marking pen, but when you start getting $1000 worth of free stuff per year, it becomes questionable if you are doing co-ops because you are a great gal.

I also understand your feelings being hurt. I think it IS very moral and ethical of you to ask and to expect clarification. That is also how my feelings got hurt. In the end, I understood in was in my favor to keep my personal business out of the co-ops and the co-ops out of my personal business. Look how some go wrong! So long as things go well, you are a saint, but mess something up, you, your name, your business, they are all going down with ya!

I went into things with a few thoughts in mind=I know what I am doing, I am capable of organizing and shipping large orders in a timely manner, I'd never rip anyone off intentionally and I can buy at true wholesale.

I came out of it with some new thoughts=feedback is feedback and there are ways to nail you anywhere you put your name. Tick off the wrong person and they are gonna blow a hole in your ship with the biggest canon ball they can find! People DO post feedback from forum to forum even when they have nothing to do with each other!

I know you have a big heart and that you are a good person but if something did go wrong or someone got mad at you or thought you might get something free that they did not, it WOULD affect your critter care. I think what you do is too important to risk it.

Seems to me that if "vendors of live gardening-related materials" is what constitutes a 'vendor', selling cut flowers at the farmer's market isn't even close. I'd say you would not be a vendor.

Michelle and I were posting at the same time. I agree with her post.

This message was edited Jan 29, 2007 9:38 AM

The rule is simple and general and covers all items that someone might co-op while also selling/re-selling for a profit. Uusally that's plants, seeds or bulbs, but the general idea shouldn't get lost in the what-if scenarios.

To use an extreme non-plant example, if someone is selling plant tags or markers, they would be a considered a "vendor" and should disqualify themselves from running co-ops for those items. It doesn't matter if they're the manufacturer or if they're buying them at the group discount price to resell elsewhere.

Thank you.

I just had a great idea! (I think.)

I can do cut flowers from seeds, etc. that I buy on my own...plenty of those...I didn't buy enough in either of my coops to sell, but found some other sources as result!

Potted plants I can donate to the Friends for Life Annual Yard Sale, and they can donate back the proceeds to me. That would totally not make me a vendor of live stuff, and still get to the same goal. FFL offered to do just that same thing last year, but I didn't have anything to sell!

Why, you ask, do I want to be able to do co-ops? I have a few more things to learn, systems to perfect, and practice makes perfect, especially for a hands-on learner like me; plus I like the interaction with others here. Maybe when I have it all figured out, I won't be interested any longer (Been-There, Done-That Syndrome)

Now, is that an acceptable solution to the problem?