Ethical question...feeding Hawk

Wow, some of these photos are amazing.

I have 7 feeders in my garden and I love my birds.
I also love the Hawk that comes to visit.
I feel bad because our house and the hundreds of other houses being built are destroying the Hawk's habitat.
If he's hungry, I don't mind him dropping in for lunch, I feel honored.
It's all part of nature.

Me running down the street in the early AM on a week when most everyone is home, not at work, to witness the spectacle would be a good picture. Not only did I have on my pajamas and no shoes, but I had the camera in my hand AND the binoculars bouncing around my neck. I looked like a bird watching lunatic, thats for sure. But was SO HAPPY to finally get a picture of this guy--its amazing how often I see him, and incredible the number of times I've seen him make a successful kill. Really thrilling, so to get his pic was worth making a fool of myself!

I love the pic of the hawk on the fountain--I presume the small bird beside him is decorative???? Makes a great contrast!

Here`s a Pic. of my feeder.

Sorry for going back to this, but Equilibrium, how did you maintain a good relationship with your neighbors after dealing with their cat? At any given time I can have as many as 6-12 cats in my yard. I do have one but he only goes out at night, and he is neutered, the lady across the street is on of those "I wanted to let her have kittens before fixing her" types. Then she keeps a female kitten and so the lineage continues, the meth heads next door have a siamese thats deadly, do not know if its due to actual hunger or just killer instinct, then there are the possible ferals................

Wow MQN
I sense a lot of anger there.
Here in Australia we build Bridges before we build Fences.
It has always worked for us.

Wow, yotedog, what a great photograph! I wonder how large that bird is. It's so hard for me to really appreciate the size of these great winged creatures, especially in a photo. More pictures! Take more! :)

I don't recommend building bridges with methamphetamine users.

Hi yote,
yep it's a little decorative bird... I wish I could get closer and get a good picture of my Hawk.
But alas, he watches me "like a hawk" and never let's be get very close.

Ginger,
I would be floored to see parrots at my feeder... that's so cool!

I once had a distressing incident with a Cooper's hawk that had snapped its wing during migration. He stationed himself on my mulch pile, the highest point he could reach on foot, so I grabbed a wool blanket and bundled him into a box. I was shocked at how small his body was in my hands.

Unfortunately, Coopers had just been taken off the endangered list so the bird center killed him. Otherwise they would have had to rehabilitate him. I was distraught.

dovey
Give moi your postal address and I`ll send you half a dozen.
Just kidding. But woulden`t it be so cool ?

Do not know where you are getting the anger from Ginger my question was "how did you maintain a good relationship with your neighbors after dealing with their cat". Then I provided more information for my particular situation, so that people giving advice realize that I have feral and neighbor cats (and their kittens due to lack of responsible ownership) coming to my feeders...........A co-worker of mine is a falconer, so I hear stories of the blood shed all the time, I guess I have gotten immune to that kind of violence. Its like when I first started fishing I could not deal with the worm or cleaning the fish, now.....no problem.

Claypa you are right about having relationships with meth heads, they need ultimatums and a good rehap center. And I mean that it a nice way, thank you very much.

Summerkid, I can just imagine how distressing that whole situation would be. Wouldn't it be nice if we all had so much money we could pay for the vet bill, the wildlife centers, preserves......... oh to be Bill Gates..........

Interesting as given the damage their cats did to my property, it is they who should be concerned about maintaining a good relationship with me. I created bridges by taking my concerns directly to each family in a "neighborly" way. They failed to claim responsibility for their animals' behavior.

Regarding the first people, the damage was done by the time I figured out what was going on. I asked them to come over and look to see that I wasn't out of my mind for asking them to please keep their cat in and they pretty much told me they weren't coming over to look or smell because there were a bunch of cats roaming around and I couldn't prove it was their cat and they weren't going to keep it in and have to pay for cat litter. I was gracious and dropped the issue... for the time being because at that point it was the principal of the matter. I was much younger then and decided to wait it out to try to get a photo one weekend. I planted myself there in the entryway to the room in one of those old bean bag chairs with a good book and waited with my camera. And waited and waited. No photo that weekend but I recall it did spray through the window... probably when I went to the bathroom. I repeated the wait game the next weekend. I finally got a photo of their cat backing up with his tail straight up spraying right into my room. Took the film over to get it developed and went over to discuss it with them. Her husband told her to keep her darn cat inside and they looked as if they were going to go at each other so no sense even bothering to ask them to pay for the damage. I simply suggested that they try neutering it at which point in time the husband went nuts and said he wasn't neutering his dog and he wasn't going to neuter his cat because there was something wrong with people who neutered animals. OK fine. No sense arguing with that mentality and we weren't exactly dealing with pedigreed animals here. No leash laws for cats back then but we did have some interesting ordinances on the books so I held on to their cat for a weekend in my garage then took him to my vet and told my vet what was going on with this "stray" and had the cat neutered and dewormed and while I was at it, I vaccinated the cat too and registered it to them by buying a rabies tag. Pretty darn neighborly if you ask me because I vetted their cat at my expense to "keep the peace" and additionally spent around a hundred dollars in material plus the cost of a guy who could replaster the wall underneath the window and my whole house was full of dust for over two weeks. Plaster work is very messy. Then I had the sash to the window replaced. I stuck a note on its collar to remove sutures on such and such a date. They couldn't even do that so I had to take it back in. After that, we never saw the cat again. My husband said most people would have shot or poisoned their poor dumb animal or taken it for a long drive in the country. We never spoke with them again after that but their kids did always come trick or treating at our house while the parents stood in the driveway and watched as their kids rang our doorbell. We waved, they waved and that was that. My husband works hard for our money and we like having a clean home in a good state of repair. Their cat did a considerable amount of damage to our home back then. I don't think it's very "neighborly" of people to let their cats out other than on a leash or into a fully fenced back yard.

The family who owned the cat that sprayed my screened in porch frames and the cushions I had to replace could have cared less about our home or our cushions. I don't know what kind of issues they had but they were very pleasant and told me they'd keep the cat inside so it would stop spraying and killing my birds and then a few days later the cat would be back spraying and hanging out underneath my bird feeders. I later found out from their kid that the cat was peeing in their house and that his dad kept yelling at his mom to change the cat litter boxes and that maybe then the cat would use them but that his mom kept throwing the cat outside. No sense discussing adult issues with a child so I ignored his comments and went over by the neighbors and asked them again to please keep their cat inside. She smiled and pretty much told me that she had been trying but that the kids kept letting it out by accident. Sorry folks, not worth my time. The people went on a vacation to Disneyland or maybe it was Disneyworld in winter and left the cat out while they were gone. Frozen water and the raccoons ate all the food they left out for the week they would be gone. I took their cat and brought it in to get it neutered and I de-wormed it too. I don't think I gave this one vaccinations but I might have. Same vet only about 20 years later. terryr has been to my home and I showed her the damage this cat did to every frame to my screened in porch which is going to result in every single frame having to be removed and replaced and they are non standard sizes so the damage will be in the thousands of dollars. I paid to have their cat placed in a no kill shelter and I think it was learned that it had a urinary infection which would have been why it wasn't using the litter box in their home... well, cats do tend to like their litter boxes cleaned weekly too. For the record, I felt so guilty about that cat that I went back and bought it back from the shelter and it's in my house fat and happy and has been for a few years now. Funny twist to this situation. Their son came over and looked at our new cat and said he used to have one just like that only skinnier. I told him there were a lot of orange cats out there that all looked alike. Amazing what deworming and delousing for fleas can do. They grow back all their hair, don't have sores all over their bodies from scratching fleas, and begin gaining back weight almost immediately after they are dewormed. And, he uses litter boxes now that his urinary infection was treated. And, he doesn't kill any of my birds any more. terryr, if you're reading this- the cat is the fluffy orange one.

Next time this happens, I will go over and ask a neighbor once.Then if I keep seeing it, I'm trapping it and hauling it off to a shelter. I think I am pretty darn neighborly. At least I go to my neighbors to discuss the issue like an adult. We have leash laws for cats around here. Letting one's cat roam is illegal and results in hefty fines. I'm no longer concerned about maintaining a good relationship because that takes two to do and is impossible if only one party is willing to do so. You can only build so many bridges. Some people are just flat out irresponsible and shouldn't own animals.

Say Ginger, I don't think it's anger you are sensing but more pure and unadulterated frustration. If you saw the current condition of my screened in porch and if you saw the price quotes to repair the damage, you would be in tears. I'm not exactly thrilled about the dead feathers from dead birds littering my yard either. Not everyone is a responsible pet owner like you and if you have the misfortune of living near these types of people like MQN and I do... you would be just as frustrated as us. It's unfair for me to have to keep paying the price of being the one who is being "neighborly".

A gathering of birds will attract predators much the same way that a lawn full of earthworms will attract robins. Since there is a direct correlation between eating and living, this isn't likely to change. ;-)

Generally speaking, providing food for wild birds can contribute to increased survival for adult birds and their offspring. However, any such increase would be balanced out by disease transmission and predators.

It's understood that slower birds--regardless of cause--are easier prey. Hawks don't just take the old, ill or slow. They also take the unlucky very healthy adults and young birds, too. (Young birds are often the slowest!) However, eating sick birds isn't always in the best interest of the pursuer either--as it may end up dead from that very same disease.

Not peregrines or any other hawks, falcons or eagles are 'bred' for hunting. Hunting comes naturally for them. They are, however, trained to return to their captor's glove or fist. Falconers typically keep their birds a bit underweight (and hungry) as they are more likely to follow commands when rewarded with food. In this manner, they are trained to kill upon cue for the pleasure of the falconer. In my opinion, not a sport/lifestyle that a bird would choose if it had a choice.

Peregrines aren't that big, relatively speaking--and are no stronger than your average raptor in the hand :) Size varies among subspecies--and females are roughly a third larger than males. I don't think the peregrine pictured is eating a pigeon. For size reference, this link ( http://www.robert-harrington.com/photos/hawkwatch04/pages/DSCF2054b.htm ) shows a good shot of a peregrine on a falconer's glove. If you view the following *two* pics in that series, you will see the size of the peregrine relative to an adult pigeon. (Adult pigeons are roughly 1/3 to 1/2 the weight an adult peregrine.)

summerkid, the federal permit regs require that licensed rehabilitators euthanize birds with injuries that will leave them without a certain percentage of a wing or leg. By no means will one find consistency among rehabilitators, but the bird you describe may have had an irreparable injury. The accipiters (includes Cooper's hawks) are high-strung, to put it mildly. An injured adult doesn't often adapt well to life in captivity.

Wouldn't problem cats be more appropriately discussed in the 'garden foes' forum?

Back to hawks at feeders. It is the better part of human nature to want to thwart killing and to save the living... perhaps even to scare away such a transgressor. There's something a bit disturbing about one who derives enjoyment from watching something suffer, and rightly so. I've known both sides of the predator-prey issue intimately. And if the quarry were a bird I'd raised, you betcha I'd run to protect it from harm--much the way a mother would protect her child. At the same time, if the hawk were a bird I'd raised, I'd be hoping, hoping it wouldn't go to sleep hungry. Much the way a mother wouldn't want her child to starve, and much the way you don't want the birds at your feeder to starve.

*I have not yet read the lengthy post prior to mine :o
Edited to add that I have nothing further to add... lol

This message was edited Dec 27, 2006 7:24 PM

I'm reading. You mean Tyson? You forgot to mention the peeling paint, the buckled trim, the amber colored goo from pee still stuck in the corners from 2 yrs ago, the warped and buckled sashes.........way past the time to be neighborly....

Makes sense. I often wondered how it was they trained to kill on cue and return.
Very well said.

Equilibrium

Thank you for explaining it So I can understand it.
I`m just a dumb Aussie.
Here in Aus ,If you call some one "the meth heads next door "
That is declaring WAR.
I should mind my own osdubogjknv.
Thanks again Equilibrium.
Think I`ll stick to MY own posts.

Is a dumb Aussie a phrase used over there to mean something other than dumb? Just curious because you're not dumb. Meth heads next door, eh? Ugh, I've not had to declare war anywhere I live but have known those who have. You come on over here and bring your nice German Shepherd and be my neighbor, ok? Oh ya, bring that nice new lawn tractor too!

Not near the magnificent photo like many of you posted, but here is another of my Hawk.

Ginger, The birds at your feeder, are they all over where you live?
I get sparrows, finches, a few grosbeaks and the occasional meadowlark in my garden.
Nothing quite so bright and colorful.

And Hummingbirds... pert-near impossible to photograph

Yes dovey,
They are.
Check this out.
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/ginger749_1166315903_417.jpg
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/ginger749_1167156145_273.jpg
That is a great Pic. of Hummingbird.

Oh my gosh... they hang out at the park like our pigeons here?
How fabulous!
Amazing colours too!

Here is another one I forgot I posted.
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/ginger749_1166838129_948.jpg

Oh oh oh! That last photo is one I'd like for desktop wallpaper after a few months when I tire of my geese. That photo is grrrrrrrrrrrrreat!

I agree it's absolutely Fab

Thanks, Stelco, for the positive ID of my hawk--just noticed you had written. Now.....if I can just get the pair nesting...wouldn't that be a great shot? Won't happen, if they use the one nest (of which I'm aware) again, its too high for my zoom to get a close up. Love to see those babies, though.

I didn't read every single post here, but want to congratulate you for your pragmatic views on the interactions of hawks and feeder birds. I can't tell you how many times I have had to explain this to people only to have them look disgusted at me as if a hawk shouldn't be spoiling their feeder! I don't enjoy watching anything suffer and die, but take comfort knowing that the hawk is doing what comes naturally and that it is all part of the balance of nature.

I think you said it perfectly, Von76...

Ok, Updating this thread with a new hawk story....What IS it about my yard that attracts these birds?? Obviously, my yard is a smorgasbord of raptor delights....

So, about 3 months ago we acquired some pet chickens. We researched our neighborhood and decided we have every predator known to chicken and man, so built a very strong coop inside a welded wire pen. We added a long run made of cheaper chicken wire, for daytime use. Because of the aforementioned Red Tailed Hawk (yep, we still see him from time to time, though he apparently used a different nest this year..) we covered the pen.

Our hens are always quiet, though they've just started laying and tend to cackle when they are getting ready to lay. Heard lots and lots of noise a few days ago and looked out the window to see a hawk standing on the chicken wire covering to the pen, wings completely outstretched, doing his best to torture our "girls." The pen is only about 4 feet high, so you can imagine their terror, him being so close. They were trapped in the corner, the hawk between them and the coop, so we ran out to rescue them. The hawk took off, but only went about 12 feet away, where he perched almost at ground level on an air conditioner. I grabbed my camera to get a pic, and he let me approach within 4 feet of him, which I thought was quite strange. He never moved, I just decided it wasn't safe to move closer. Must be young, sick or injured I thought, so I went in the house and tracked down a raptor rehab center. Had to leave a message as they were closed.

Went back outside to check on the chickens, and while I was giving them chicken psychoanalyisis (hey, they WERE traumatized!), I kept hearing a bell ring. Three times I stepped out of the pen and looked around, trying to figure out who was ringing the bell, and why. On the fourth trip, quite annoyed, I figured it out. The bell was on the hawk. Everytime he moved, it tinkled...

Long story short, this was a Goshawk (I later discovered), escaped, with a bell attached to its leg, from a person who does falconry. By a combination of good timing and good luck, I was able to reach a wildlife rehabilitator who put me in touch with a person he knew, who knew the bird's owner. The hawk roosted just above our deck overnight (dreaming of a chicken breakfast, I suppose..) and they were able to catch him at dawn the next morning. So its not only the wild and domestic creatures that are lured to the feast in my yard, its the "domesticated wild" ones too...I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing!!

Well, yes your poor chickens. But loud clapping for you for contacting a rehabber and all that ensued after! Kudos to yotedog!

My yard is a smorgasbord too. Mostly for deer and rabbits though these days.

The bell ringing would have gotten to me if I hadn't seen it on the hawk's leg. Lots of people put bells on their cats that they let out because of some urban legend that this will be an early warning detection system for birds. Only problem is that within a very short time, cats learn how to move so as to not "ring the bell". Glad your bell ringer belonged to a falconer. Do you know what the odds of finding the actual owner on a bird like that must be? Probably not good. The bird is lucky he ended up in your yard.

Gives new meaning to the phrase "dinner bell"... heheheh

If it had a bell it had a band. If it had a band its owner can easily be identified.

Are you banded babe? How'd you get away for so many years?

Re the goshawk being attracted to the chickens, I believe I read somewhere that raptors are trained with chicken and rabbit parts when they're taught to hunt and retrieve, so he must have really been missing home when you came upon him eyeing all your fully assembled hens. Very, very fortunate bird to have landed in your yard :-)

I've also seen birds taken around my feeders, most disturbing when the Cooper's hawk snatches a cardinal... but a friend who is an avian behaviorist cautioned me to never attempt any rescue. Once caught, the chances of survival are slim, if any, and death would be much more cruel and lingering if the bird was "saved." Having made myself watch, I can say that it's all over in about 10 seconds. And yes, it's true that hawks succeed only about 1 in 10 times, so now when I see one, I have to admit that many times I'm rooting for the hawk to catch dinner (especially if it's a mourning dove - TONS of these to go around here).

I'm new to this site and enjoying all your wonderful pictures so much! Thanks for sharing.

Yea, but Stelco--regarding having the owner's info on the band---I'd of had to CATCH it to READ it. Can I call you for that part, next time? Just kidding....!

yotedog dear, he's a man who has avoided gettting "banded" by a woman to this day. How the heck that happened with him being a very desirable "keeper" type is beyond me but it did. Anyway, I'd say call on him if that ever happens again and please invite over all your cute single friends to watch the process?

Is he cute?

I had to participate in the demise of a Cooper's hawk a few years ago, I was distraught. Found it in my yard with a broken wing. I managed to catch it & put it in a box & took it to a refuge, but since it was no longer on the endangered list, they killed it.

It was surprising to me, once I had an Army blanket over the bird & was no longer looking at those massive talons, how small its body was in my hands.

Here we go again. Everyone is going gaga over Stelco!! LOL

Where have you been anyways?

Yote, that's pretty cool to have that happen.

We had turkey vultures flying around today. They were enjoying the breeze and just plain having fun.

This message was edited Sep 30, 2007 8:18 PM

Define: Everyone ;0 ;0 ;0 ;0 ;0 ;0 (smilies mean joke)

All the females except me. :~p