Yesterday I wandered Dawes Arboretum and observed and photographed dozens of Ilex verticillata cultivars. Having had time to digest all I saw, I have come to the conclusion they are all the same. Exceptions being only the yellow and gold fruited varieties. But in my vaunted opinion, gentian flowers should be blue, Physocarpus foliage should be purple, and Cornus verticillata berries should be, absolutely must be red. Pictured, by the way, is "Shaver."
Scott
I cannot believe what I'm seeing!! Today I ran across one of these in a marshy roadside. The berries were brilliant, and the leaves were tattererd and covered with dust from the gravel road. I took several close up pictures (camera is always in the truck). When I got home around 3:00 PM today, I studied the details of the pictures and thought "I'll never find this at DG"! When I went to Trees & Shrubs at 6:00 PM, it was the 5th entry from the top of the page. THANK you Decumbent for posting this! You are a blessing! Below is my picture; can you identify it as the same plant you posted?
Again, Thank You.
WoW! Maybe you should buy a lottery ticket, cause today is definitely your day! :0)
" You are a blessing." Four words I've never heard before! "Thank you Decumbent for posting this." More words I've never heard before! Yep, without a doubt, that is Ilex verticillata, aka Winterberry. Also goes by Deciduous Holly. I do not know where Vincennes, Indiana is, but ______ Simpson of the famous Simpson's Nursery found the most popular cultivar of Ilex verticillata in a roadside ditch or hedge in the area. That cultivar is called "Winter Red." He also found the very common and beautiful Hawthorn "Winter King" in the area.
Oh, and this only furthers my argument. Look at that pure species photo TGIF posted and mine of "Shaver" and tell me there's a difference!
Oh, and one more thing, NEVER doubt the DG Trees and Shrubs Forum crowd 's ability to ID a plant! No matter how obscure, no matter how difficult, somebody here will nail it!
Pictured is the cultivar "Earlibright."
Scott
Decumbent: Physocarpus foliage should be purple
Wow, are your wild Physocarpus purple? (Silly, aren't I!)
------------------------------------
Apparently, different cultivars of I. verticillata have different bloom times. I remember seeing a chart somewhere that matches up male cvs with female cvs accordingly.
In the wild up here in MN, you can almost identify ilex by the fungal infections they have. Though I have almost never see it in cultivation, I always see it in the wild: large black circular dots, seeming spaced purposefully on and throught the leaves. Okay smarty pantses of DG, what's the name of that there disease?
Leftfoot, I was being slightly facetious about the Physocarpus! Actually, having recently seen for the first time a pure species Physocarpus, the new purple leafed cultivars are such improvements on the type that they seemingly are not even the same species! And the old yellow-leafed form--I forgot the name--is pretty awful too. I wonder who was growing enough of Physocarpus to find and select a purple-leafed seedling? If he or she was bright enough to patent it, they should be set for life at this point.
Interestingly, Dawes is growing a Physocarpus opulifolius "Nana," which is a very nice plant. Really neat, small, finely textured foliage, and a good rounded form with ascending branches. I've never seen that offered anywhere, however.
Pictured: Physocarpus opulifolius "Nana."
Scott
Scott,
Thanks for the input. Please keep in mind I'm a novice on this forum, and have just begun to learn about some of the "ins & outs" of id'ing: But know of a certainty I will post future unknowns here because of the impressive talent I see here at DG. This is probably THE foremost garden website on the net. And I've learned so much just from looking at the various posts.
Vincennes is in southwestern Indiana just across the Wabash River from Illinois, and is about the same parallel as St. Louis. I'm probably about 200 miles NE of there, and about 150 miles NW of Cincinnati.
I have always been a country boy at heart, and my 'thing' is to trek into remote areas (with camera & boots) to see just what's out there. If possible tomorrow I want to make another trip in another boggy area because I saw another shrub with red berries, but it's different than this one. No doubt I'll be posting it here for ID tomorrow night.
Question: How could Ilex verticillata get transported to a remote bog? Birds? Or maybe wind, water etc.?
TBGBN, Ilex verticillata is actually native to the eastern United States and its native habitat is wet, swampy places. It does well in ordinary garden soils, but it is truly in its element near water. Birds are the usual vector of seeds. They eat the berries (usually mid to late winter), and then fly around doing what they do.
Scott
Hmmm. Grow a purple cultivar in the woods like the species, and it will grow all gangly and "ugly" too. Grow either in full sun, and both can be respectable. That's been my experience in MN at least.
Ascending branches (canes?) in P. opulifolius 'Nana' is only a young vigor thing. The bush will widen with arching canes just like the species, but smaller in all parts of course. The little branchlets do always ascend, a they do in the species. But the overall effect is still well rounded.
Periodically, mine can be infested with (Powdery?) mildew. I never was interested enough to ID it. Some years the bushes look really bad. Goes after the flowers too, big time. I'm slowly getting rid of them to make way for other things. I remeber seeing 'Nana' in nurseries in my youth, but not anymore for a very long time. I wonder if the mildew problem is widespread?
I found a seedling under them once that had to be a cross with Gold Dart(my neighbor's plant), or some other regular size yellow leaf cv. It is yellow without any inkling of any nana attributes. Have been trying to self it for years without success.
I think Gold Dart is striking. But physocarpus in all of it's colors and forms is a keeper in my book. The name of the disease that ilex are susceptible to is leaf spot.
Scott:
That's Bob Simpson. He was among the finest gentlemen you'd ever want to meet, and contributed more to the world of woody ornamentals and nursery growing than anyone can measure. Ilex verticillata 'Winter Red' and Crataegus viridis 'Winter King' are just the tip of the Simpson legacy. Look up the nursery website to learn more about the exceptional plants he selected and introduced to commerce.
What color should Cornus verticillata fruit be? I think you need to get away from the jet fuel vapors a little more often.
Having known, grown, and thrown a goodly number of deciduous Ilex in my time, I must heartily disagree with Scott on his "...they are all the same..." comment.
Winterberries vary not just in fruit color, but in the following:
•propagatability (is it easy to make more)
•ultimate size (height or width)
•hardiness ('Winter Red' may not survive northern IL, where other northern clones will)
•habit (rounded, upright, spreading/pendulous)
•vigor (short or long interstices)
•foliage quality (green, dark green, glossy dark green)
•foliage persistence (important if you want to observe the fruit)
•fruit quantity ('Winter Red' can't pack any more berries on it's stem)
•fruit persistence in landscape (important if you want winter display)
•fruit persistence on cut branches (really important to florist market)
I could go on, but I hope this may sway some readers to consider what they invest in for their landscape. Selections are often made so that there is something "new" for the market, and sometimes the current trend is not to adequately test new plants thoroughly (versus the old days of Bob Simpson, et al). I can agree that the fruit color of the red clones are pretty similar, but to see many of the selections in the same collection WITHOUT THE FOLIAGE (Bernheim is one of the best places to do so, and with a blanket of freshly fallen snow is the absolute finest time) is to divine that there are indeed differences, and thus quality choices to make. I know Dawes has a lot of Ilex in their collection, but I can't remember if they've planted them together so that this type of assessment is possible.
Or maybe, there was a little imbibition going on?
Late yesterday I posted a picture of Ilex verticillata in this thread above after finding Scott's post. I had trekked all day along swampy gravel roads just observing how much plant life grows in these boggy situations. It undoubtedly is the native species. I also noticed some of the shrubby plants had different leaf configurations; some shiny, some darker in color, and some more elongated in shape. When I went back late today I compared the differences and got some pictures of this one shown below. The berries all looked the same- deep red and thick on the branches. My question to all (any) of you: Is this the species Ilex verticillata? And why would its leaves be more elongated than the one shown in the original post above? I am enjoying reading your posts- and I'm learning a lot from them. Thanks!
Finally!!! I was really hoping to provoke a good discussion on these cultivars with my rather reckless statement. And welcome back John, btw! The Dawes collection is all together, but even still it is spread out over at least ten acres. Still, good mass plantings of many, many cultivars.
I will grant you that size and form seemed to vary from selection to selection, although it was tough to know which plantings were fully mature and which were more recently planted. It seems like with so many shrubs, compactness equals marketability and popularity these days, and with a lot of plants I understand why. But I'm not so sure that is necessarily the case with Ilex verticillata. My own bias is, has always been, and probably will forever be with "Winter Red," and I am just waiting for the day when I can plant forty or fifty together in a low spot about forty or fifty feet from the road in a big commercial landscape featuring a big lawn. And, yes, the whole idea is for those vivid berries to pulse like lasers across a virgin field of snow.
Foliage persistence? Eh, the foliage has never really bothered me on these too much. It will fall. Usually the fall color is above mediocre, so the combination of red berries and yellow fruit is just another part of the story.
From the display at Dawes, I could not detect much difference in the influence of vigor. This year, being so hot and dry, might not be a good one to judge such matters, however.
Fruit persistence does matter very much, and it would be very interesting to visit Dawes or Bernheim in January and see what plants still have their berries. I've had years where my "Winter Red" had fruit until March, and others when it all was gone shortly after Christmas.
It seems to me I visited the Simpson Nursery website in the past and was kind of disappointed, but perhaps my memory is bad (duh!) or maybe they've improved it since then. I would really like to know more about Bob Simpson. I wonder if the nursery is still a strong business and a cool place to visit. It is really disheartening, however, how many great nurserymen do not pass on the "greatness" to their sons and daughters.
Here is a plant that was mixed in with the Ilex verticillatas. It is Ilex serrata "Sundrops," and I was a bit smitten by it, quite honestly. I wish to visit again soon and see just exactly what color these berries mature to.
Scott
And here is the form. It was a very neat, compact shrub.
Regarding propagability of Ilex verticillata: I've had these repeatedly push roots out the drain holes in containers, roam freely into the hard, compacted clay soil beneath and then send up miniature forests of young plants that are easily dug up and transferred into containers. I think there is a lesson there somewhere for an easy, reliable way to increase stock.
Scott
TBGDN:
Since you asked...where to start (and not sound like a lecture)? You obviously are no slouch at gardening. You also have the gumption to trek out into the swamps to indulge in the wildness therein.
Did you collect any samples while you were photo-ing? A glance at the two pics you've posted here show some glaring contrasts between the two (different) fruiting plants illustrated.
Your first (to me) is still definitely an Ilex verticillata. Your second is not. In a bit of a comparison to those drawings in the Sunday comics, I can find seven differences between the two pictures (one being most/major). Can you?
Let the conversation begin!
Scott:
Yes, well-watered pots around poorly drained sites will make more plants. This is not the commercial production method of choice, however. Rooting percentages on stuck cuttings = $$$ for nurserymen who want to stay in business. For gardeners, divisions of nearby suckers from a parent plant is just fine. Winterberry is nothing if it can't produce a wickedly dense fine root system on young plants.
Foliage persistence relates not only to when the fruit colors up (if the foliage drops early, more and longer fruit show) but also to level of marcescence (leaves holding on after turning brown/black, like some of the witchhazel clones). These spent leaves hide the fruit (or at least mars the display of same) for the winter. What a waste!
I should've included drought tolerance in the list above; this makes a difference if the plant is ill-sited. I have some ill-sited plants myself ('Bonfire' and 'Harvest Red') and what is the point of a female winterberry with no fruit? Too dry at critical time (as well as lack of pollination) leads to very nice stems only. Since I started irrigating container plants nearby, these large shrubs are overburdened with fruit. I'll take the sagging crimson branches every time. I recommend a rather wet spot (downspout areas are always good, or around a drainage culvert) for winterberry.
Based on your comments in the Franklinia thread, you might just be hanging your head right now upon learning that Polly Hill has named a fair number of winterberry clones.
For those that don't already know: Ilex verticillata is dioecious, meaning plants have either female flowers or male flowers. Female plants set the fruit. Male and female plants must have overlapping bloom times, or no respectable pollination can occur. Ilex verticillata is native over a very large area of North America, so provenance is important. Select males that will bloom at the same time as the females you select, so that you get the best bang for your buck.
Other fun female selections, and my estimation of their worth:
•'Red Sprite': compact (though not dwarf), silver twigs, robust fruit
•'Winter Red' (Simpson): ditto to Scott's treatment; give it plenty of room; most persistent bright red fruit for me in KY landscapes; this will hold fruit on dry cut branches for more than two years (samples in my living room for all to observe)
•'Bonfire': a hybrid with very small but copious blood red fruit
•'Afterglow' (Simpson): shiniest foliage on a denser more upright barrel-shaped form; fruit has a slight orangey cast to the redness; finer in twig
•'Stoplight' (Simpson): big fat red fruit; I think it has the largest fruit I've seen
•'Sunset' (Simpson): this one has the spreading pendulous form unlike others; heavy fruiter
•'Scarlett O'Hara': the red fruits are copious, but small and not nearly as persistent here as others; it has a very fine network of twigs giving it a different landscape character from the coarser winterberry selections; yes, 'Rhett Butler' is her partner
•'Chrysocarpa': the yellowest (to me) fruiter, as opposed to the gold-orange of 'Winter Gold'; not so heavy a fruiter, but the color against something darker (like evergreens) is exquisite
•'Bright Horizon': lots of red fruit; not as persistent; kind of gaunt habit for me
New clones under observation here at the Valley: 'Shortcake', 'Tiasquam', 'Goldfinch', and 'Winter Gold'. I need to get more males for this expanding harem.
Geez, you hit the ground running when you got home, VV. You were missed, but we hope you had a good time.
Okay, on with the games. The biggie to me is the leaves. On the first picture (Ilex verticillata) the leaves are alternate and on the second they LOOK opposite but I can't be sure from the picture. Also, on I. verticillata the leaf margins are serrated, while the leaf margins on the second picture are smooth. The fruit on the I. verticillata looks like a holly berry, firm and starchy, a fruit that will hang on through the winter. The fruit in the second picture looks tender and juicy, ready to be eaten. But, perhaps that's just the lighting.
This message was edited Oct 2, 2006 3:25 PM
Man, he's good!*clap, whistle, clap*
Is there an easy way to put those two pics side by side?
Does this help?
I'm thinking it's some kind of lonicera. Is it Lonicera maackii or Lonicera tatarica that have red berries? Are the berries really fleshy and juicy like a cherry or are they hard and pasty like a crabapple?
Scott
Fireweed steps up to the plate, and drives the first pitch deep into the gap in right field for a stand-up triple.
Swing, batter batter, swing.
Decumbent slides into the box, and squares for a suicide squeeze! It's going to be a close call at the plate...
Scott, I think you got it. Lonicera tatarica has red berries. Although it's not native, it's invasive so it might be found in a swamp.
Hey, VV, what other differences did you notice?
Thanks for the visual aid rcn. Now at least i can see what I missed, ROFL.
I just got in for the day and decided to take a look at one of my favorite subjects. And I'm glad to see the comments above. I do want to remember this is Scott's thread, and I'm eternally grateful for his first picture: That's exactly the plant I was looking for- Ilex verticillata. While I was exploring in the 'swamp' a lot of plants caught my attention; especially the shrubby tree that at first glance "looked like" Ilex verticillata (the 2nd picture I posted). I took that picture yesterday (bottom view in rcn's post).
ViburnumValley: Yes I noticed the differences Saturday, and saw more when I went back late Sunday afternoon. I don't know if I saw as many as you, but it is (was) apparent to me immediately it was not the same plant: (1) They are much taller shrubs- 8-12', (2) The leaves are relatively elongated, glossy & less serrated, (3) Leaves are more directly opposite on the twig, (4) The branches are more spreading, heavily loaded with berries, and grow in a 'vase-like' spray and even hang parallel or downward to the soil. (5) The leaves of Ilex verticillata are more akin to the shape & texture of an apple leaf, or at least that's my first impression. (6) Although the camera shows bright red berries on both, the Unknown Plant's berries to the naked eye appeared to have a more 'orange' hue. Late afternoon sun didn't help.
"You obviously are no slouch at gardening. You also have the gumption to trek out into the swamps to indulge in the wildness therein." Compliments will get you everywhere! Thank you: I sometimes think I was born in the woods, since I spend every possible hour I can there, and have made it a part of my life since childhood- and now it seems natural for me to be at 'home' roughing it. I once spent two weeks in Upper MI and Canada on vacation: When I got home I had collected a truck-load of baby evergreens, and today they are all growing in my landscape.
Scott: It's definitely not Tartarian Honeysuckle- That grows here too, and I've known it forever since the Cardinals love it for nesting. The berries are essentially the same except for a slight color variation. If I get a chance on Tuesday I'll collect some samples, and do some more pictures of berries, twigs & leaves.
rcn48: Thanks for fixing the pics: You saved me some time in Photoshop.
I am attaching one more picture of the Unknown (wide angle) with the hope of possibly giving you all a better idea of how it looks in its habitat. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this mystery. Please note the Cat Tails in left foreground.
Anybody know the name of this cultivar I found at Boone County Arboretum?
Scott
Scott,
My first guess was var. aurantica but there is also 'Chrysocarpa' and 'Winter Gold' in the I. verticillata stable. I usually associate aurantica with yellow fruit on I. verticillata because it's what I've run into the most. In the I. serrata group are 'Sundrops' and 'Xanthocarpa.' I've never seen either of the I. serrata in fruit but foliar characteristics are fairly similar. Fruits are supposed to be somewhat smaller. Perhaps this could rule it out as the pictured plants. Boone County Arboretum? I'll have to add this to my 'to-visit' list.
Regards,
Ernie
Now that you mention it, "Winter Gold" might be a good guess. The color is actually a little more salmon than the photo conveys, but I don't think this fruit had quite developed its full color either. I don't think that it is "Chrysocarpa," which I had seen by not photographed at Dawes. I can't tell you how they're different, because my mind doesn't work that way, but what synapses are trying to fire don't exactly match enough for me to go, "Aha! Of course."
It definitely wasn't "Sundrops," which I had seen and photographed at Dawes two weeks ago. The picture, incidentally, was posted earlier in this thread in case you missed it.
Boone Country Arboretum. Yes! Neat place. It is kind of a nifty idea of combining a big county park with soccer fields and ball diamonds with an arboretum. It is somewhat sprawling and very new, so most of the plants are quite young, which is both good news and bad news. Obviously, you won't see 65 year old Metasequoias or 150 year old Ginkgos, but there is a great diversity and quantity of material and it is all still down low enough to afford good, clear views of flowers and fruit and whatnot. New arboretums are not created often enough.
Scott
Scott,
I know the not being able to explain the difference thing. It can be a subtle way that the foliage is held, angle that the fruit hangs around the stem, etc. Drove my plants teacher nuts! Well, sort of. I like young arboretums because you can see how the plants perform when young, evaluate growth rates, etc. I remember going to the Dawes for the first time about 7 years ago and seeing "The Hill" when it was fledgeling. I feel like I'm growing up with those plants. I'll be the grouchy old man harassing them when they want to tear out or renovate. LOL, I hope not. Will look up the 'Sundrop's' post. Saw the plant for the first time at the Ralston this past summer and like the habit of it.
Regards,
Ernie
