Rating System, Part II

This is Part II to a different thread (http://davesgarden.com/showthread/61516.html )

Perhaps "Ratings" is a bad word to describe this. What I'm interested in discussing is not a "rating system", per se, but rather a positive feedback system on a per-user basis.

Notice the word positive above. I inserted this word after reading the deluge of comments in Part I of this subject. Folks don't want a negative feedback system, this much is crystal clear. So, erase from your mind the idea of a negative feedback system, and focus on the idea of a positive feedback system, based on the old adage that "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

After finishing a successful trade with member "XYZ", wouldn't it be nice to be able to go to her member page and add in a little positive note, letting everyone else out there know about your positive experience? Wouldn't it be nice to be member XYZ and see the positive note entered about you? Wouldn't it be nice to have a collection of nice things said about you from all the folks you've traded with?

Is a member feedback system worthwhile, assuming that it was 100% positive things only? And, if the member trading is a bad trader, then they will simply have no positive feedback?

Dave

Dave,

I like the idea. THe only problem I can see is that if a DG member is not an active trader, there will be very few positive feedbacks or none at all, which can be taken the wrong way.

Dave, I would agree to that, but what is to keep someone from posting in a negative sly way? Someone would have
to ride "shotgun" over the forum to eliminate possible infractions.

Jerrie

Random thoughts;

What's to stop someone from signing up to Dave's Garden with several different usernames and giving themselves glorious feedback? (I am the mother of three teenage girls, so I have to be one step ahead of the crazy schemes and ideas all the time!)

I'm not at all afraid to take a chance on someone that I have never traded with, but I probably would not make as big of a trade with someone I didn't know as I would with someone I knew. I have learned to start small and only send what you can afford to lose. So I don't know that not having any or very much feedback would really be a hindrance to a new or not-very-often trader. I think we would all be willing to give those folks a chance.

We have to start somewhere, and your idea is as good as any Dave.

Removed by member request

With the way DavesGarden is set up you can trace back threads from the inception of DG. You can use this search function to look up someones name and tally all the trades they've made.

Let's say that "PineyPaula" has made 17 trades in the last two months, but I'm looking at the rating board and I only see six comments on her trades. I might be inclined to think that PineyPaula didn't come through on the other eleven....ergo: she's a bad trader and I'll just trade for seeds with someone else.

You can't make people leave a rating Dave. And if you have a desparity between trades and comments it will/can be used inadvertently, unintentionally, or even deliberately against good traders.

Poojer

Like most good ideas, this one needs to be looked at from ALL angles. I dont subscribe to Indashades "conspiracy" theory but, as has already been mentioned elsewhere, this ain't a level playing field. I have recently(successfully) traded plants with US members of DG and, in most cases, they have mailed me to say the package arrived OK. But if they didnt I wouldn't know and, potentially, be tagged as an unreliable trader when, in reality, US Customs may have snaffood the package. I say, keep your own "reliability" notes and trade accordingly - you need only get stung once without a reply. Putting names on this forum will lead to the sort of recriminations I thought we were trying to keep off this site.

El Tel

But not all trades are public, nor are kept on the system, therefore it is not that easy to tally up the total number of trades a member made in a certain time frame.

Absolutely correct Tim.

No one knows how many trades do go on, but my reference was to the ones that are openly posted. ...these are the ones can look up. Maybe "PineyPaula" is a great trader but how would of any of us know that if it isn't recorded? There are too many variables.....but the only constant is human nature.

P

I agree with all the above posts. I'm not a regular trader on the internet for several reasons and none of them bad. I'm not a well known person here and while I'm not out to get my name known, I will be honest and say I would find it a little disappointing to receive no feedback on such a feature. Some here live reasonably close to each other and meet to swap stories plants and seeds, being across several thousands of miles of water and land makes this impossible (unless I get that elusive lottery win or that move I've been trying so hard for comes up LOL)

I always follow up with emails when I receive seeds and most do me the curtesy of replying, some even send pictures and germination rates which is very helpful to collecting seeds for the following seasons trade.

Maybe I'm just looking at things a bit askew, but I can't see what the problem is with expecting people to live up to and be responsible for the trades that they have agreed to, and giving feedback accordingly.

If you are honest and fair in your dealings with others, you have NOTHING to worry about. If you are overwhelmed or a little forgetful, a quick e-mail of explaination to the other person in the trade is all it takes to rectify the situation and prevent it from turning ugly. It's that simple. Most people are pretty understanding, and the ones that aren't.....well........ get them their trade ASAP and put them on the NEVER AGAIN list. So much of this is common sense.

Poojer, you are taking for granted that all arranged trades will be public here on the forums. I would be willing to bet that the lion's share of trades on DG are arranged privately, so no one will ever know how many trades versus how much positive feedback that a trader should actually have. I know I have done most of my trades here OFF the forums. It just seems simpler.

I think it's important NOT to read too much into it or over-analyze the situation. Some of the worst things that have ever happened to me have NEVER happened to me, if you get my drift. I vote to give the system that Dave arranges a try, at least. If it doesn't work, it can always be discontinued. But none of us will KNOW whether a rating system will work, or if it is a good/bad thing unless we TRY it first. C'mon-- where's your sense of adventure!

It's amazing what you think of when you do the dishes... but I just thought of another angle.

Let's say that "PineyPaula" does promptly send her seeds to me, I've gotten the packs I trade for. Great. I go to the boards and say she's a fine trader. A month from now when I open up her packs of seeds to sow them I am astonished to find only four seeds in each and (horrors)I've given her a rating as a great trader. I've given a thumbs up when she shouldn't have gotten any rating at all.

Obviously the ratings would have to editable.

But how would you make it up to others if you've made a "false" positive rating and because of it others trade and get stung? That would be my fault in this case because I didn't look in the packs. I just don't do that, I have faith in other people, and when the seeds come they go into the seed boxes immediately and stay there until they're sown.

P

Removed by member request

Methinks that a lot of frustration that was first incurred at the other websites are being translated here.....Dave is a fair and reasonable webmaster, if he weren't we'd all be singing with the Mousekateers!

Jerrie

OK,OK it looks like this is a possibility. Its not like we cant give it a try. Maybe a little helpful suggestions for new traders? To be fair, to people who havent done this before. There are a few things that irritate some, ( Im not too picky)These are the things I have noticed , people want. Here goes:
When trading. Let others know what year the seed is.
And if you are trading a leftover store bought package or collected yourself. And ask if that is OK with them. Send in a padded envelope so the seeds dont get crushed.
Give your e-mail again , so the other person doesnt have to look up the address to let you know they got it.
Also in case they have misplaced what they are sending you , remind them in a note what you wanted, this is especially helpful for SASE for seed. (just in case) Sometimes people at home get a little carried away with the delete button! And you lose valuable e-mail. Non - Gardeners dont understand!!! Buy one of those LITTLE note books, and keep a record. Of it all. Allow a page, or more, for each person. Take into account the time of year for sending plants, or cuttings. Meaning too hot or too cold will kill the plants before they get there.If it is too hostile to send wait until a more mild climate to send.Try to send plants Priority, and on Monday , so they dont sit in a cold/hot post office over the weekend.
I would stick to 2-3 trades at a time. As a new trader you can get carried away, get too many trades going , and lose track!
That is all I can think of , Im sure some you can think of other suggestions, to help ensure a smooth trade. Michele

Michele - thank you soooooooooo much for the advice. I haven't traded ever and this is a wonderful start for me. Have already printed your instructions. thanks again - vic

Hi Inda....

A long time ago I had a public speaking course and in it we had to discuss the pros and cons of everything. We used something called the "parade of monsters" for determination...and that's pretty much how insurers and lawyers do much of their work. It's all about prevention and keeping people from getting hurt.

I'd love to see a rating system, it would be beneficial...BUT not if there is the potential for any abuse.

So, in order to have a beneficial rating system we must first determine how to keep it beneficial from the very beginning....how does one write that into the programming? If it turns insincere and is used in the manner it was not intended then that's the end of the ratings board because it can't be trusted as reliable.

(as an aside....posting on the internet is the same as publishing and many forms of libel can be legally determined)

So....

What factors will be determined to judge that which makes a good trader good?

What minimal factors constitute a good trade?

To answer these questions we must also determine their opposites of what is a poor trade, and what makes a trader bad, and then we can begin to determine a median that is acceptable to all.

Also, don't forget that there's a wild card that can ruin the rating of any trader....the vagueries of the US postal system. There's a return reciept available if you mail plants (anything) via priority mail, but am I going to spend the extra bucks to send my seeds that way so I can have proof of delivery? No way.

I'd really like to see a rating system because I don't like getting stung either, it's irksome and a waste of my time. We must continue to discuss the rating board and listen to more pros and cons, perhaps with enough input we can finally get to see a way to get beyond that parade of monsters.

Poojer

Mz,

I've done 417 plant trades over a period of three years. All via priority. I will only mail that way.

Dave, Michele just gave some very good, tried-and-true tips for trading - always good for newbies (I certainly needed that kind of help last year when I started!)

It made me think that perhaps this is a good time to put together a primer on trade etqiuette, and perhaps include a link to it at the top of the "tradetracker" page, similar to the link to Sharon's how-to for journals? I'd be glad to help compile/edit a trading guide/primer, if you need volunteers.......

LOL Poojer, you are thinking about this WAY too much!

You are dwelling on the negative things that MIGHT happen, which is never productive. If I dwelt on all of the negative things that MIGHT happen to me during the day, I would never get out of bed! I like to walk during the evening...but... I MIGHT get hit by a car, and I MIGHT get chased by a dog, and I MIGHT get a tick while walking through the woods and get Lyme Disease. And... guess what... NONE of these negative things ever happens to me when I take a walk!

What are you going to do if Dave's rating's system is put in place and turns out to be a WONDERFUL addition to this website and becomes a beneficial tool to the traders here? It's as likely a scenario as all of the doom and gloom being thrown around. I say give a go and see where the dust settles. Maybe we'll all learn something, and that's a GOOD thing no matter how you look at it.

Inda,

As I said I would love to see a ratings system, and no, I don't believe I thinking about it too much. This is a very litigious society and I don't own Daves Garden....Dave does. He also owns his reptutation of being helpful to gardeners, his website is by gardeners for gardeners.

I ask myself one more question? If I had a website would I want to have the forms so my posters could rate each other. No. I think it would be unfair to those who are new and inexperienced despite their sincerity, and I think it would keep many from making more trades as no one wants to be judged by a stranger. We're all cyber friends, but most of us don't know each other for real. I can't tell when you're having a bad day, you can't tell when I am either, and our personal views and judgements will be affected by our daily lives. Bottom line for me is that I feel it won't prosper a growing network of traders but might instead stifle it....and that is not for the benefit of gardeners.

Smiles,

Poojer

well, say I have spent several hundred dollars (I have) in priority mail in the past 3 months. Say my finances just took a turn for the sad, and I'm cutting down on my trading. My rating will be very low in volume. What will you say? That people must not want to trade with me? I'm going to have to get very picky in what i trade for, I have to decide the things I just *must* have. Those will probably be the things that are most sought after. I won't stand much of a chance. I guess I'm the only one that really doesnt want it, and I hope that I don't have a reputation as a bad trader.

We have the Mail Call Forum and a person can always go on there and see what other people think about the trades they get. There are many wonderful responses there if a person would just take the time to read them. What is wrong with that, just doing the way it is in the Mail Call forum?
I don't use the mail call forum either but I do read the comments that people have and as far as thanking a person, I also do it personally which I would prefer. I would much rather be notified personally than have it posted. But then that is just me.

This message was edited Friday, Jul 20th 6:01 PM

I'd bet less than 1/8 of my trades are there. Some were private set-ups and to keep that person from being flooded with requests for what I traded for, I thanked them privately. It is a great idea, if everything goes there. I thought at first the tide was going one way on this, but it seems to have turned. Whatever Dave wants is fine with me.

tiG, most of us don't want it at all, but it
seems there are factions out there that do and everybody needs to get their $.02 in on the subject.....then, you know what ....we ought to have an all out vote and then no one could complain.

Jerrie=:)

We would not be just voting for a new ratings forum....it's summer, with big preprations for the coming harvesting. We'd also be voting for Dave to take time away from his farmwork to do the programming....this is not a commercial site and he doesn't have minions and interns to help with all the testing and editing on the form html. There's a lot of time involved with code, and it NEVER works completely right the first time.

A vote's all well and fine...but there's more to it than just clicking on a link to rate a poster. The vote also determines how much time Dave must set aside to write and debug that code.

P

Well........here is my 2 cents worth:)

I think the following quote says it all, in my mind at least.....

"above all, be nice to me."

That quote comes from an email I recently received (no, not telling who it was from either...haha). It resulted from misunderstandings on the part of both myself and the sender, and taught me .... I should say re-taught me.... a lesson: It is very easy to make a lasting enemy, but very hard to make a lasting friend.

So, I guess you could say my opinion is....don't say anything if you can't say something nice. Just my humble opinion....and I hope I am not offending any of you fellow gardeners:) I have met some extremely nice people in here, and I think we are all here to enjoy and reap the benefits of the forum, realizing that we are all human. I don't think either public praise or public criticism is the answer....both can lead to less than a friendly atmosphere.
Owen

I agree with you and tiG, Owen, but we do have to understand that every member has their own opine as to whether or not they want a rating
system, and they need to voice their's
just as we voice ours. I personally hope
it never happens. I too, value the wonderful friendships that were introduced here, and my fondest hope would be that this will neverr happen. This however is Dave's decision, however he is using much diplomacy by letting us share our thoughts with each other, to draw upon that in forming his conclusion as to having a feedback forum or not.

Jerrie

Well done!! I really do appreciate all the thoughtful and insightful comments that everybody is volunteering here. A group of people who can so easily have such a controversal discussion to cleanly and neatly is rare indeed! This truly is the best group online I've ever seen.

It looks like the majority still favors not instituting a rating/feedback system, although there are still a lot of folks who have no yet weighed in. Something tells me that there are a whole lot of folks who are carefully watching this thread, and the outcome may affect the way a lot of people view our community.

Well, as I said, the majority still thinks it is a bad idea, my wife thinks it's a bad idea, I'm not in a risk-taking mood currently, and, as Poojer said, I'm fairly busy with my farmwork. All these add up to a "no go" on this one.

Let's close up the discussion then.

Summary:

1. The Mail Call forum is a great place to learn how trades have gone with various folks.

2. Business continues as usual.

3. We will setup a primer for new traders (thanks, go_vols, for volunteering to spear-head this effort!) :-)

Thanks again, everyone, for this excellent discussion. The exchange of ideas and viewpoints was incredible and, some may say, generally unheard of in online forums. These two threads are a perfect example of the beauty of our community.

Best,
Dave

Job Well Done, Dave!

Jerrie:):)

[ Removed by member request. - Admin ]

In another world far , far away. someone starting posting names of good traders and it really took off and I must say that it was gratifying to see my name on a few posts. One lady, however, thought of herself as a good trader, and did not see her name--major hurt feelings. I like mail call.

Well put Dave and I thank you.
What a great place this is that we all can have a great, open discussion about topics like this and no arguments.
Dave and Trish, I do thank you for having such a wonderful gardening site to enjoy and the opportunity of meeting many great and wonderful gardeners. :-o)

I can live with that-- the majority rules and that's as it SHOULD be.

If you keep your nose clean, and are honest about your trades, good things will come back to you ten fold. We will still hopefully be willing and able to look after each other here on DG even WITHOUT a ratings system.

And ~I~ have a brand new iris and daylily seedling bed in my yard as of tonight. WHOOPEE!

Thanks Dave,this was sooo enlightening and invigorating to say the least' To 'er is human to forgive is Divine'

I learned alot and know others did as well' With a "primer for newbies,like me,we could refer to it until it becomes second nature and the "seasoned traders" wouldn't be pushed "over the edge" trying to deal with us,LOL

My Page, as some have looked,probably think I don't have anything to offer' Well, I'm skittish as I've never made one(a page) and have read and reread the instructions' Don't want to make a mistake and create more problems and not know how to correct them' I'm not totally DENSE,just a Model A in a cyber world,LOL

Everyday,I'm learning more and more and hope to be a pro before the grandchildren come along,LOL'' I fell in love with this site and everyone here,instantly' The honesty,knowledge,sharing and diverse personalities are what makes a GREAT RECIPE for friendships,I want to stay here'

So, from all of us "newbies",we thank each and everyone of you for your patience and understanding,listening to us and working with us''' HAPPY GARDENING TO ALL, Sis''

Im glad if I helped any new traders. Its so nice to hear Dave approved of our conduct. Like to hear, he is happy with us. Dave your open mind, and programming is what makes this site so great. You seem to have great intuition. A new post taking more suggestions for an updated Trading Primer, might be a good thing (as Martha says)
I like what Dave said in the very beggining: "We build our own reputations." Whether it be in trading or posting or conversing on the chat.

Thanks Dave for all your hard work and efforts on our behalf!