Burp(ee)?

What a wonderful idea to post pictures .Thanks.I also think that it would be wonderful for Dan to publish a book .I for one would be sure to buy it.A very good friend of mine who passed away last year was the curator of plants at Fairchild tropical gardens in Miami.He published a book about tropical plants about 10 years ago.Now when I curl up with the book I can connect with him as well as the beauty he created.

The question about patronizing the big guys or buying from a small company at higher prices for unique merchandise touches all of us whenever we purchase anything.This is an ethical topic and everyone has to decide what is important to them.Is it price ? or maybe it is the special service and ambiance of a local business or a specialty nursery?

Of course Capitalism and the American Dream of working hard and profiting from our hard work are what most of us want but when huge corporations make decisions based only on the bottom line we lose something important.Do we want this?

As far as this post being political;there isn't much that isn't political these days.

Nancy

Quote from alyrics:

"" Capitalism is not a method of greed, it is a reward for tireless effort and skilled marketing. "

I b'lieve I'll keep that quotation with your permission. Beyond that it represent the system by which individuals and organizations are rewarded commensurate with their intelligence, willingness to risk, and hard work. It is a far better system than communism or socialism and having spent years living and traveling through countries and areas that have been under communism and socialism, well, those who think capitalism is a dirty word have no idea what they are talking about or what the alternative really looks and lives like. Capitalism rewards dreams and those who have the guts to reach and work for them."

Would you not say you were being just a wee bit political here? This is the kind of talk that endangers this entire thread. I have given up my political rants, seems it would be a good idea for you to do so as well.

"Of course Capitalism and the American Dream of working hard and profiting from our hard work are what most of us want but when huge corporations make decisions based only on the bottom line we lose something important.Do we want this?

As far as this post being political;there isn't much that isn't political these days."

I agree completely. Practically every decision we make is political. Certainly chosing small businesses over large corporations is one.

Actually, I think the politics that has crept into this thread has been very civilized and I congratulate both sides for their civil tone.

As for the pictures -- I love them. I never saw Heronswood, but I really regret it now that I have heard of it and seen the incredibly artistic landscape design. And I had no idea there were so many kinds of hydrangeas!

Yeah, let's just post more photos and save that talk for D-Mails, which hopefully aren't so restricted. I'll try to contain myself too -- but it's hard when you're so furious!

As for the two-week-hydrangea/Meconopsis thing, that's what set Heronswood apart. Many of us who study plants or collect them are keenly interested in such introductions, even if they don't have the season-long appeal of some of the more common, commercial varieties that can be found in the average garden center. And getting unsourced or garden-sourced seeds form a commercial seed company just doesn't cut it for some of us. But the average homeowner just wants pretty plants, which can be found elsewhere at half the price. It sort of boils down to this: do you want to go to a movie, made with 50 takes to get everything exactly right, or see an opera with new young talent and all the miscues that go with a live performance! There is a place for each.

Guy S.

I lust for the Hydrangea macrophylla 'Jagosaki' that Pixie posted a photo of! Could there be a cutting of that in my future? On my knees and begging shamelessly.

Having seen the demise of several niche nurseries here in our area nothing said or seen here really surprises me.
All startup businesses evolve, some close, some get bought out and absorbed, some turn into chain stores.
Passionate or hobby businesses rarely make it.
Fewer still stay true to their roots.

Daniel Hinkley wanted to travel the world searching for plants.
Heronswood allowed him to do just that.
W/ Robert Jones he created a gorgeous and it appears world class gardening Paradise.
So well did they do it that they got the attention of a world known and recognized Mega Corporation.
For reasons known only to them they sold it.
Probably they will never have to 'work' again.
Could you turn down that offer?

Burpee bought Heronswood expecting to turn a profit.
They kept the original employees, it appears, and tried for 5 years to make a go of it.
They couldn't and so closed it.
They are absorbing the assets and adding them to their company in PA.
Wouldn't you?

They now need to rid themselves of the property.
Unless they can afford to donate it to a trust or organization it will be sold.
It seems that the if Heronswood Garden is to survive intact someone needs to step up and save it.
Grassroots groups and movements have saved many wonderful places.
Is anyone working to save Heronswood? Are you?

I'm just throwing out observations and questions.
I've never been there and probably never will.

If you're passionate about saving Heronswood's Garden though.............

Ric

I forgot to add.
If you like the fountains and haven't heard of Little and Lewis.

http://www.littleandlewis.com/index.html


Ric

I would contribute. I never could pass up a worthy cause.

Ric, that suggestion was indeed made several days ago -- read farther back up the thread. Many of us would donate toward such a cause if the option was made available. I merely suggest that Ball makes his (considerable) living from horticulture, and it would be honorable for him to at least try to work something out short of the condo solution.

"Burpee bought Heronswood expecting to turn a profit."

Well now. I think that is really the question isn't it? I'm not at all convinced that the above is a true statement. I may have my private opinions about the man who bought it 'expecting it to turn a profit', but let's just say that I would be incredulous if I thought that the above statement were actually true.

Equilibrium, there are surely some cuttings in your future! But future it will be since this plant is still only a wee baby. What I got myself was a rooted cutting. But you are #1 on the list for cuttings!

Starhill, absolutely. Maslow's heirarchy, indeed.

I wonder if the Garden Conservancy would consider it? They typically take on private gardens
so its probably a long shot.

I visited Heronswood in 2004. I've purchased a number of plants mail order over the years and
loved what I got from them. I'm just so glad we visted! It was unplanned - we had the time while
we were there. It was a very special afternoon.

I try to purchase everything I buy from establishments I want to survive. I have no love for big
box stores so I spend my money at the little places that provide the unique things I want. I don't
just buy those odd things there. I buy everything they offer that I might use. Survival of the
places we cherish depend upon our patronage. Remember this when you buy your plants from
chains and not the little family nursery down the road. (I know - I'm preaching to the choir here
aren't I?)

Tam

Ok now we have a purpose. All of us who have Heronswood specimens start to propagate the genetics and trade with other Heronista's collection. We cannot sell them due to patent concerns. But think about how many DG'ers are in position to due such a plan. "Heronswood trading forum" I know for one it will help me to propagate more efficiently. What do you think.

Thanks Pixie (wiping drool from face). So glad to be at the top of the list.

Sofer, do you have any blue Hydrangea that I could get a cutting of? Wouldya couldya be ma special neighbor too?

Actually, just because Heronswood has the plants and Burpee bought the plants doesn't mean they were patented . If the plants were patented, it would be illegal to propagate them by asexual means -- like cuttings etc, at least as I understand it. My guess is that most of these plants haven't been patented, but its worth checking to see. Of course, I don't know how that is done, but there is no doubt a way. That is why you often see OP ( open pollinated) on seed. That is the same as saying, I just let any ole' bee that happened to fly by pollinate this plant with whatever he had on his body.

I think Tammy brought up a good point. Would the Garden Conservancy get involved? Does anyone here have a contact there?

And if the answer is yes, would Burpee consider a reasonable offer and be willing to write off some loss on the condo value of it as a charitable contribution, perhaps buying themselves some respect in the process? Does anyone have an inside track to George Ball?

Steve, do you think Dan would be willing to provide some guidance here?

Guy S.

Just for interest I looked up www.heronswood.com on line and it appears the on-line catalog is still open for business. Neither of the Clerodendrum bungei or Hydrangea Jagosaki seem to be available. But there are 12 pages of hydrangeas listed. Maybe now is a good time to shop while the selection might be better. I'm not recommending that, just thinking out loud. Mostly because some of the catalog items are listed as Zone 7 and I don't know how they are going to do that in PA and Delaware.

Sorry if I got on my horse about capitalism in the wrong place. I spent some time behind the 'Iron Curtain' in the 80's and in Central Asia after the Soviet Union fell. Still gives me goose bumps. Falls under the heading of taking care of what is precious.

Today's Sunday NY Times has another article about Hinckley and Jones in the Garden section. Not too much new to add.

And lest I came off like the Stepford gardener who doesn't care about rarities - thats not true, I was merely noting that the majority of gardeners mostly do not collect rare plants. Now I suppose I should have bought some things from Heronswood but I have been more or less disappointed by mail order in the past and have resorted to getting unusual things from other gardeners or arboretums. In retrospect it never occurred to me that Heronswood or indeed some other interesting establishments might not always be there. In whatever way I can, if a way appears, I'd also like to help keep Heronswood from becoming Herrywood.

"I'd also like to help keep Heronswood from becoming Herrywood" LOL!!! Oh horrors!

Re ordering, I'd say if you want something, jump on it, but don't be surprised if they don't have it. Also, I emailed them and got no response. I don't know what the status is regarding ordering. I would have severely mixed feelings about giving Burpee any more of my hard earned money, but they still have some hydrangeas I want. Again, they were sold out of so much when I was there that I was sorely disappointed. And some of their stuff looked extremely undeveloped. Not the usual quality. If they do answer an email about ordering, just ask them if they have the clerodendrum, or anything else, because lots of things are not even in the catalog or on the website.

I think it is an EXCELLENT idea to trade cuttings or divisions of our Heronswood stuff. That would be a brilliant idea!
Re propagation, please correct me if I am wrong (which is highly possible),, but I was under the impression that patented plants could not be propogated for resale, but that propogating via cuttings for one's own garden or to share with a friend were okay. Is this wrong?

Equilibrium, if sofer cannot provide said hydrangea, I can send you some. You know I have about 30 hydrangeas!!

I think ordering anything from Heronswood at this point would be risky...I doubt they will have any "replacement" for anything that may be lost and remember you will be just supporting Burp...ee

I made the mistake of ordering from Shady Oaks just before they went out of business. (Unknowingly.) Several of my plants did not do well, and as they had a guarantee, I asked for replacements only to be told that they were no longer in business and couldn't help me. Shouldn't the customer be able to find out that this is about to happen? It makes one lose confidence in any "satisfaction guaranteed" promises.

Unfortunately it is my understanding that plants that are both registered and trademarked may not be propagated by any means without the owner's permission. This means you can't propagate them for yourself or for a friend. Good news! Patents aren't renewable and generally expire in 20 years however some patents expire in only 17 years. To the best of my knowledge, patents may not be renewed. Plants that are both registered and trademarked will be indicated by this symbol- ®. Interested in propagating a patented plant? Get the owner's permission or find out when the patent expires and wait until then to propagate the plant. Interestingly enough, I've found some entities using the ® symbol on their plants and further checking revealed that although the plant was trademarked, it had never been officially registered. Imagine that! Plants that aren't officially registered should use this symbol- ™. I'm sure it's merely an oversight when the ® is inadvertently used instead of a ™ when a plant isn't officially registered. You'd be surprised how many plants are listed as being officially registered when they actually aren't. Gets kinda confusing so best to research each plant individually because plants that aren't officially registered can be propagated by cuttings to the best of my knowledge providing one doesn't use the trademarked name. Incidentally, trademarks last for ten years and if they aren't renewed... I believe you may have a free for all propagating to your heart's content. Feel free to correct me if my understanding is incorrect.

You won't believe this but Hydrangeas are not a plant I like. Being male they are too fooo fooo. Sorry All my herronswood plants have failed here in Montana except this one Acer Pseudosieboldianum. I know how many of G. Ball's transplants will make it in the Pennsylvania transplant. Next time I get some they will be at Dans new private garden. I'm visiting the new heronswood when I visit Dan next. Hence the Phoenix will appear in a future Martha Stewart or another media outlet. It is far beyond Herronswood. Also Dan will be producing a national treasure elsewhere. Everyone be patient.

You must conform or ..... I've been booted for not planting red pelar-aniums with variegated vinca and a spike in the middle.
I did just finally get Asarum splendens off the clearance table of a totally retail garden center and my shade garden friend gave me some Pinellia's that I'd never heard of. Those aren't too Stepford are they? - I'm anxious about this. However I've never lost my lifelong afinity for the smell of plain old marigolds so my closet Stepford is comin out. Oh no!

I can hardly stand seeing those pics of the garden - what a spectacular place it would have been to see.

Here's my understanding (based on my knowledge of non-plant related patents and trademarks, but I think it works the same way for plants) Trademarks protect the name of the plant/brand, and patents protect the plant itself. Many plants may not meet the requirements to get a plant patent, but they can still be sold under a trademark.

If I get a trademark called "Liz's Favorite Rose", then nobody else can sell plants under that name. It doesn't matter what the plant itself is, if I trademark the name and what I'm selling under that name is a yellow rose, and you try to sell a pink rose with the same name, then I can sue you. On the other hand, if I get a patent for my yellow rose, then you can't propagate that yellow rose even if you call it something else.

If a plant is patented, you are not supposed to propagate it at all, but the primary benefit of the patent is so that the patent holder is the only one who can sell it, so if you have one of the plant and want a second one for yourself, they probably wouldn't bother suing you. On the other hand, if they read this website and see you offering cuttings to your hundred or so best DG friends, they might get a little more upset!

A trademark doesn't come with any protection against propagation, but you can't try to sell the plant under that same trademark.

I think the main reason companies do trademarks is to create name recognition and brand loyalty, not to try and protect the plants themselves. You're more likely to remember a cool sounding trademarked name than the name of the nursery who grew it, so that helps them get repeat business when you go to the garden center and are faced with choosing between many very similar looking plants.

A plant could only be patented if it was hybridised, and it would have to be significally different to any other on the market. It would be extremely difficult I think to gain acceptance of a plant patent. No species plant could even be entertained for a patent, as that plant already exists, and a patent requires that it does not already exist, it has to be new. As many similar plants DO exist, you see my meaning. Trademarks are a different story.

Dan Hinckley is a friend and fellow plant hunter of the owners of Crug Farm Plants in Wales, they go on expeditions together. I have been getting their catalogue for some time, but they didn't do mail order. This year they have decided they need to, and are in the process of setting it up.

Very interesting thread here. When Guy starts something, he really, really starts something.
The article in the NYT was written by Anne Raver, a very creditable and long time garden journalist. In the winter time she came to New Orleans to do an article on the hurricane ravaged gardens and I gave her a tour of the devastated (75 per cent of the city) areas of the City.
She usually researches her work carefully so I would take her stuff to the bank.

Wallaby, you apparently have a much different understanding of the rules over there across the Puddle? Under US patent law, anyone can patent any cultivar selection, hybrid or not. It merely needs to be demonstrably different from the typical wild plant (and from other cultivars) and asexually propagated. There are many, many, many plant patents currently in effect -- the reason there aren't even more is a matter of pricey attorney fees, not narrowly defined restrictions.

Ecrane3 pretty much hit it on the head. One additional factor: some of the really commercially driven nurseries give their cultivars stupid alphabet-soup names so no one will learn them (but will use the catchy registered trade names instead). Then, by the time the patent expires, everyone will be asking for the plant by its trade name, which remains under license requirement indefinitely. IMHO, it takes a pretty mercenary individual to maximize income by saddling great plants with terrible cultivar names just for a few more $.

Guy S.

Sofer, you don't know what you are missing with hydrangeas! But I'm sure you are absolutely correct that Dan Hinkley will not be dropping off the map anytime soon! The man is gifted.

So, does anyone know if the plants from heronswood are trademarked? I don't think they are patented. And I've seen certain cultivars such as the Hellebores 'heronswood doubles' for sale at other nurseries.

Wallaby1, I've always wished i could order plants from the UK. There are so MANY interesting on-line sites that hail from there.

"red pelar-aniums with variegated vinca and a spike in the middle" - Shudder!! Get thee back in the closet!!

I know that none of the plants I want are patented! If they are only trademarked and not officially registered, I could care less. I went and looked at the website and I caught something that I don't particularly care for. The use of .aff. I personally think that's a big nomenclature no no and I have a problem with that and find it to be arrogant but what do I know. It happens in Carnivorous Plants every now and then too. Nevertheless, I created a lust list and was thinking of ordering. Should I? What do you think my odds of getting good material are right about now?

what does .aff. mean?

Not much.

It's not even accepted for use yet... some evidently choose to use it.

.aff is the abbreviation for the word affinity. I have my views (I'm not alone) on the use of this term however they might be misconstrued as being political in this particular thread so I'm not going there so we'll just leave it as being a big nomenclature no no.

Example from the Heronswood site-
Hydrangea sp. aff. chinensis
Hydrangea sp. aff. heteromalla

I'm sure there are other examples but I only looked at their Hydrangea offerings.

I'll be honest, when I heard the website still looked like it was working I went and ordered some things--it's definitely a risk that they won't show up or won't be in the condition I would usually expect, but since a lot of these plants you can't get anywhere else I figured it was worth taking a chance! And I limited myself to an amount of money I could afford to lose. I also hate the fact that I'm supporting Burpee, but selfishly I really wanted these plants for my garden, some are ones I had wanted for a while and some are ones that I had planted at my old house and wanted to plant again at the new one (I was planning a big order this fall when it's time to set up my new garden, but since they may not be around anymore I figured I better try now!)

And on the subject of patents...I think most of Heronswood's stock was rare plants that were collected from the far ends of the earth vs ones that they hybridized and bred themselves, and if that's the case then they couldn't really be patented because Heronswood didn't "invent" them, they just collected them and made them available to the public.

I would be surprised if anyone from Heronswood send you a plant that wasn't in good condition. I mean, these people loved that place and there was a lot of pride in the work there. Especially on the hydrangeas, which I spend about 2 hours looking at, I think you'll be okay in terms of quality. It's just whether they actually have what you want in stock.

I'll go through my lust list of 10 and try to cut it down to 5. Then I'll place an order. I spent some time going through the Hydrangea too. I noticed they are already down on ferns, bummer.

You forget Pixydish that all but 3 Heronistas have been fired. You are getting the best of skilled Home Depot staff now.

No, I didn't forget at all. Who could forget that?? I just figured that the three who were left would be doing the work. So they have temps??? Actually, i wasn't sure if they were even filling orders at all right now.
Here's the latest article:

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/business/14796460.htm?source=rss&channel=inquirer_business

Now, instead of Dan, they will have the new and 'improved' plant hunters. Bleh!!

Well I would guess that the 3 are training the new ones full time. And in their spare time digging up the plants and packageing them for the Zone 5 PA. LOL

If and when I get my order that I placed I'll definitely let everyone know how it turns out...the website and the auto-confirm message that I got both said 1-2 wks until they ship the plants, so we'll see!

Here's the latest thing I got on my 'heronswood' alert through google news:
http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/agriculture/display.htm?storyid=49614

Take a look toward the bottom of the page. Looks like Michael Dirr will be appearing at the Heronswood hydrangea openhouse in Pennsylvania. Nothing like bringing in the big names.
Guess I won't be going to the Hydrangea Daze event this year.

My friend Bob McCartney, proprietor of the famous Woodlanders Nursery in South Carolina, just sent me a link to their take on this. It reads as follows:
---------------

RARE PLANT SPECIALTY NURSERIES ENDANGERED ?

The horticultural world is shocked and dismayed to learn that the world renowned Heronswood Nursery in Kingston, Washington has been closed by the Burpee Company which had bought it in 2000.

Dan Hinckley came to visit Woodlanders around the time he and his partner Robert Jones started Heronswood in 1987. Under their dedicated care and management Heronswood became a world-
renowned source of rare plants and new introductions from around the world. Dan's plant hunting expeditions took him to the far corners of the world and resulted in countless new and heretofore little-known plants being established in their extensive display garden and then through their highly aclaimed catalog finding their way into the gardens of plant lovers throughout the U.S. Although Burpee Seed Company of Pennsylvania had purchased Heronswood in 2000 and had continued the business with Dan Hinckley and other staff, the ax fell in late May when Burpee suddenly announced that the Kingston facility would be closed and all personnel laid off. Portable plant material was to be moved to Pennsylvania where the Company indicated it would attempt to continue operations. Without the favorable Pacific Northwest climate and Dan Hinckley's involvement it is likely that many kinds of plants will dissappear from the scene and new introductions will likely yield to bottom line considerations. The Seattle Times quoted Dan Hinckley as saying: "We're sad because we believed in Heronswood and believed it was more than just an nursery. We were trying to contribute to the horticultural community and the community as a whole." Quotes from the horticultural community about Heronswood's demise include "Paradise Lost", "gap....will not be easily filled", "a Mecca for gardeners around the world", "This is a disaster".

Woodlanders pre dates Heronswood but we have much in common. We have seen quite a few rare plant specialty nurseries come and go over the past 26 years. Heronswood closing was a shock. Running a rare plant nursery is a way of life more than a business. It takes a special kind of person. While we have thousands of loyal and dedicated supporters and countless horticultural feathers in our cap, we must be able to cover the steadily rising costs of doing business. Competition from other rare plant nurseries, both the apparently successful and the transient, is one factor but many large corporate nurseries have in recent years begun to mass produce heretofore rare and little-known plants naievly thinking that there was a lot of money to be made. "Big Box" outlets now carry plants which we first introduced to American horticulture.

We do not want Woodlanders to become another casualty. We want our legacy to continue and our old and new friends to continue to have this source for plants that are available nowhere else. Yet time does not stand still. Institutions can continue indefinitely, but not individuals. We are currently negotiating with several possible buyers who might keep and improve the nursery. There is no shortage of speculators and developers who would like to acquire the very desirable property but are not looking for this way of life. We are not interested in talking with them.

Please stay tuned and if you want Woodlanders and other rare plant specialty nurseries to stay around, we need and appreciate your support.
----------------
Guy S.