Hmmm; they're subject to rot as they age? The monsters at the neighbor's property line must be pretty darn old since they are truly huge. We have lots of high wind here; maybe one of those beasts will come down on one of their trailers some fine night. Sorry, don't mean to be cruel; but between their dozens of ailanthus and a dozen or more buddleia, plus who knows what else, I feel like we're living next door to InvasivesRUs.
Good advice, everyone, on going after the females first, and thanks. VV, do you know where I could purchase Garlon 4 RTU to use on these beasts? I've tried googling for it, but only find 2-1/2 gallon bottles of Garlon 4 at around $265. each. Would still need to buy the mineral oil to mix with it; don't need anything like that much, and honestly can't afford that expense all at once. Any advice would be most welcome, and thanks!
Mimosa picture
I measured mine at 3 ft high, it was 8 ft around. We guessed it to be 35-40 tall. Dave, my tree guy, didn't think the tree was really all that old. And it was probably a seed allowed to grow from the one in the church.
I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, but I thought Garlon 4 was one of those products you had to have some sort of license for? Or had to have the training, something. Like a farmer can buy herbicides that the ordinary person can't buy. And I've heard that it's very expensive. Just a little FYI, I asked if they could give me some at a nursery I went to when the Garlon that Equil gave me wasn't working. There was no way they were giving me any. Said it was too dangerous for little ole me to be using.
I think you do need a license for Garlon4. You can buy Ortho Brush-B-Gone at Wal-Mart or Lowe's and it has the same ingredient in it (triclopyr). You may have to mix it up a little stronger than the label says though. It's around $15.
I've looked at the BrushBGone concentrate, and it's certainly affordable (comparitively); but it's 8% triclopyr as opposed to the 20% triclopyr in Garlon 4. Does anyone know if the weaker concentration will work? Really don't want to use something too weak to work, that might cause these blasted trees to send out tons of root suckers.
I'm sure you can get the same effect, the Garlon 4 is not going to be sprayed on at full strength, you have to dilute it first before use. So if someone knows the proper dilution for the 20% stuff, then you can calculate how much to dilute the 8% stuff to give you the same final concentration. If nobody here has the Garlon and can tell you how much to dilute, I have a link on my computer at work to a site where I should be able to find the label and see what it says so if I get a break during the day I can probably check it for you.
I would go ahead and double it. If it says half cup per gallon of water, go ahead and use a whole cup. Go to your farmers co-op store and get some spreader-sticker to mix with it too.
I think escambiaguy's suggestion is very good, I think that's probably the easiest way to do this. I did look up the Garlon label, but it's really written if you're making massive quantities to spray over acres of stuff, and there are pretty wide ranges of concentrations depending on what you're doing with it, so it's hard to really figure out how much you should be using if you were using it in your own backyard (which the product is of course not designed for!). I can't post a direct link to the site where the label is unfortunately, but I don't think it's very useful anyway.
The Garlon comes basically two ways, Garlon 4 RTU and standard Garlon 4 (oil soluable formulation). The RTU is just that, ready to use. It is complete with a dye for you to be able to paint away to your hearts content knowing where you left off. The dye is blue. The straight Garlon must have a surfactant added to it. I use mineral oil. Mineral Oil is a decent diluent and is the best choice although you can use JLB Oil Plus Improved or Arborchem Basal Oil but they are more expensive. Do not use diesel fuel or kerosene... sort of defeats the purpose in my mind. Anyway, the ratio that would probably be best for this particular tree for a cut stump treatment would be 1:4. Avoid the temptation of increasing the strength of the Garlon 4 to a 1:1 ratio as that will have issues that might snap back and bite you in the butt. This time, I think V V should comment on what ratio he uses.
Trials and tribulations-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/469229
I had forgotten about this thread but it raises some good points and caron has forgotten more than I've ever known so people with questions may want to contact her direct via D-Mail.
But Equil, don't you have to have a license to buy it? I think in Alabama you do.
Oh, and if you want to buy the brush-b-gone at Wal-Mart don't wait too long. Once they start putting out those dang Christmas decorations you'll never find it.
Climbing up onto the soapbox...
Please accept this admonition in the spirit that it is intended, which is to educate and hopefully ward off future posts that start with "...now what do I do, once I've poisoned my soil/yard/pet/ex-husband by playing with dangerous chemicals and ignoring the label recommendations..."
There is a very good reason that chemical companies are required to spend millions on research and thus create long boring labels and MSDS for their products. These chemicals kill things very effectively, and they don't know that you only meant to kill the invasive. There are federal laws pertaining to label use of chemicals. It really isn't a good plan to post publicly advice to IGNORE the label recommendation. I can't in good conscience sanction advice like that. EQ alludes to it; she should have come right out and said it, as I am here.
DO NOT USE CHEMICALS IN CONTRADICTION TO THE LABEL RECOMMENDATIONS. It's against the law, and it's not smart. Even if you are chemist, I doubt you will know or be able to predict the results of the action of "doubling" the rate, or mixing with some random diluent or adjuvant.
If I get a chance to speak with the native plants curator at the UK Arboretum before I leave for vacation, I'll post his experience with Garlon 4. I believe I remember talking with him about his use of this chemical in attempting to control certain invasive species in their woodlands. I believe he spoke of the off-target effects of Garlon 4 (due to persistence in the environment), as opposed to glyphosate. He was treating Asian mulberry and wintercreeper euonymus.
The last thing any one of us intends to do, is to end up poisoning future planting prospects while trying to rid our landscapes of the current invasive species. The last reason to do that is by thinking "if a little is good, more is better." It's not. More treatments, at the proper prescribed rate, is the answer.
As far as acquisition of chemicals, farm supply stores are one of the best places to find a full range of pesticides that are appropriate for the problems. Many are staffed by people with a lot of training in pesticide use, because it is the law that they MUST be. They often have experience in "treating what ails you" too, so they may have just the answer (pesticide, dilution, timing, etc.) in the quantity you need.
As far as what I use: at Louisville Metro Parks, we employ several certified arborists and landscape professionals that are licensed and certified pesticide applicators. I get to recommend the death sentences; they get their jollies pulling the switch. At the Valley, I've used Crossbow™ to excellent effect; it has wiped out the intruders Lonicera japonica, Lonicera maackii, Euonymus fortunei, and Rosa multiflora. Fingers crossed, I haven't been blessed with Ailanthus altissima.
Please don't use pesticides flippantly. Respect that they are dangerous chemicals, and that label rates are generated for appropriate results. Measure twice; apply once.
I use chemicals consistent with the labeling when I use them as I definitely favor mechanical removal when possible. V V is 100% correct, more is not better.
As far as Garlon is concerned, I don't use it for anything other than a cut stump treatment. Garlon is NOT a short life chemical.
I guess I should think twice before I recommend people break the rules on mixing up dangerous chemicals. Go ahead and mix it according to instructions. If it doesn't work, than only YOU can decide to mix it stronger if you feel comfortable doing so. I only speak from my own personal experiences from dealing with tough plants like Chinese Tallow and Wisteria.
And always make sure to wear rubber gloves and long pants when handling it.
Truthfully excambiaguy, I don't think you should think twice before posting. You're only voicing what others are thinking or what others (myself included) have already done. We've all broken the rules before. Sometimes we slide by with few or no consequences and other times we don't. It's part of the growth process.
Backing up a bit- V V stated this, "More treatments, at the proper prescribed rate, is the answer". I would agree for too many reasons for even me to go into here in a post. That's one of the reasons why I always leave myself room to re-treat. If I girdle, I do so higher to leave space for another girdle directly below the first to which I can re-apply the herbicide. If I take my chainsaw to it, I cut it down to a height that enables me to come back in to take a second swipe at it which provides me with a fresh area to treat with the herbicide.
Please understand that I do NOT want to poison the environment, most especially the little piece of it on which we live and garden (not to mention the well that supplies our water). I simply want to kill the blasted ailanthus, and need a chemical with which to treat it following girdling or hack & squirt. Any advice on which method is more effective, and at what time of year, would be most welcome; I've found numerous articles on the tree on the internet, and the information given is more than a little contradictory. Most agree that 20% Garlon 4 is the most effective chemical, though they differ on how and when to apply it; none of this is helpful since I'm not licensed to buy the product. I can use undiluted BrushBGone concentrate from the local hardwares, which contains 8% triclopyr as opposed to the 20% in the Garlon 4; but worry that the weaker concentration will not work effectively, and that the trees will simply send out more root suckers in response.
I have asked at farm supply stores and nurseries, and am either greeted with looks that clearly say I'm insane to be worried about killing junk trees, or handed a bottle of RoundUp or BrushBGone. I've left messages with the local extension service asking for advice, but have yet to get a return call. I've called a couple tree services; they'd all be happy to chop down the trees for me, but I know that will just guarantee tons of suckers next year. I'm becoming pretty darn frustrated. I'd really like to work on eliminating this invasive beast, at least from our own property, but don't know how to do so without the proper tools. VV, if you think Crossbow might work on ailanthus, I'd be happy to try it; or do I also need a license to buy that? I fully understand the need for restriction on sale of potentially harmful/dangerous chemicals, but find myself in the position of knowing I have a serious and spreading problem, but having no effective solution available.
"I believe he spoke of the off-target effects of Garlon 4 (due to persistence in the environment), as opposed to glyphosate. He was treating Asian mulberry and wintercreeper euonymus."
VV, I would really like to read about that if you have the opportunity to ask and post.
spartacusaby and others:
Here's some starter websites that I keep bookmarked. The TNC bunch is probably the foundational creed, because they've gathered and applied their experiences nationally, not just in one region. Region-specific experiences then can home in on your circumstances (species, time of year, technique, chemical, etc.).
•This provides a home base for invasive control knowledge:
http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/handbook.html
•Here's all you need on triclopyr as Garlon (heads up, notgrnjean!). Read all of it, but especially the page on "Behavior in the Environment":
http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/products/handbook/20.Triclopyr.doc
•And finally, the ways to terminate Ailanthus altissima; the "Recent Comments" section here offers some personal experiences that are valuable:
http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/esadocs/ailaalti.html
There's a lot of chemistry, plant biology, and stuff at these sites...but it is important stuff that bears understanding. I'd print it out, highlight what is not clear, and then ask about things for clarification.
If anyone wants to contact me off-forum, dmail me and maybe we can work through some of the individual situations better than here in repeated posts.
I believe the full strength brush-b-gone would work for the girdle treatment. It has worked on Chinese tallow. The timing is very important. The best time to do it is when you see the leaves starting to change color in the fall. That is when it will be dispersed down to the roots better.
VV, thanks so much for those links. I'll print out and study the material, and really appreciate your offer to help with questions by dmail.
I am new to this forum, but I was curious about my situation regarding invasive plant life. You see, I live in Reno NV and many species I appreciate are considered invasive (Mimosa, honeysuckle, wysteria, quaking aspen, jap barberry, etc.)- but not in my area. If a plant is invasive in one area, but not the other, is it wrong to plant it? Example- Mimosa- I'm not even sure it will grow here (Zone 7b- I think it might), but as a stand alone specimen I think the tree is pretty neat (nice flowers and tropical effect, especially in the Reno environment). This area is not that warm and moist, therefore I believe that is why this tree does not take off. Anyway, so I know its easy to want (or need) to completely eradicate certain plants from some areas where they do take off, but shouldn't they still be available for enjoyment in those areas where they don't? I understand this is a forum specifically directed at and against invasive species, but before everyone vilifies me for championing their cause- I'm just asking (and maybe playing the devil's advocate a teeny bit...)
Welcome to you bevoreno!
Being invasive is very much a matter of where you are. Lots of invasive plants are not invasive in every part of the country. Plants that are invasive in one area may be perfectly well behaved and perfectly appropriate to plant in another. Some plants are very badly invasive in many areas of the country where we have large concentrations of DG members (mimosa being one of these) so they get a lot of bad press, but if they're not invasive in your climate then there's no reason why you shouldn't plant them. When I post warning in a thread about things that may be invasive, if I know it's invasive in someone's area I'll let them know that, but if I don't know how it behaves in their climate then I'll just say that it's invasive in many areas of the country, so they should do some homework before planting it.
Thank you for the welcome Equilibrium, and thank you for the response Ecrane3. I am extremely excited about this newly discovered website as I can ask questions and really get answers beyond my Sunset Western Garden Book!!! Equilibrium and Ecrane3, I have seen your postings from quite a while back and I'm glad you are still about as its great to have experienced, intelligent folks who don't charge $70/hour for consulting fees on plant topics! Just some background on myself: I'm an ex-Navy SEAL who is now a firefighter in Reno. I worked for a year as a landscaping project manager and really discovered that plants and landscaping are my heart and soul! I truly love plants, but I'm not really experienced with them yet, so I really appreciate people like yourselves who take the time to spoon-feed the new guys like myself. I look forward to picking your brains, thanks again!
There are tons of helpful people around--each forum typically has at least a few really knowledgeable people around who are more than happy to provide advice. (the SWG book is a really great resource too...I learned a ton from it before I discovered DG and learned even more! Their climate zones especially are so much more useful than the USDA ones)
Navy Seals visited our kids at school last year. All the kids were in love with you guys! Say bevoreno, thank you for serving and thank you for keeping us safe.
Regarding the Albizia, never underestimate the ability of a lovingly tended invasive to set seed that may very well end up in a natural area many miles away where considerably more favorable conditions are present. I'm convinced my property became infested with several species of undesirables all because people trespassing unwittingly "planted" seed from other properties on my land. The seed came in the treads of their tires and it germinated along paths they forged through my property. Not happy, not happy at all because none of those species were there before the dirtbikes and quads started getting in. This is but one of the many reasons why some of these plants get labeled as invasive. Nevada can be kinda inhospitable though. Which just happens to be a really good reason to consider native species well adapted to your harsh environment ;) Forgive me while I get a plug in for the native flora and fauna. Less fussing over indigenous species in the long run once they are established and many are equally beautiful in their own right and they multi task by providing much needed habitat for indigenous wildlife.
I'm not a fan of Sunset publications for much other than their climate zones. In my opinion, a USDA hardiness zone 9 in NV is considerably different than a 9 in FL. For this reason, I prefer the Sunset Zones. The Sunset Zones attempt to compare some climatic differences from one area to another where the USDA basically compares nothing more than similar temps. Neither shows all the nuances to one's local area but they're both decent guides. One problem with the Sunset Zones is that you darn near need to buy their book unless you are familiar with their zones. Great way to get you to buy their book though. One Sunset book is probably enough with all the information available online these days.
Equilibrium, I was wondering why you aren't a fan of Sunset publications. My Western Garden Book seems to be pretty packed with information about a lot of plants/trees, but I would like to know your opinion if you don't mind sharing a bit. I haven't really dug into it until a few months ago, but it seemed like a good place to start. I don't mean to ask a bunch about subject off the beaten path (I know this is a thread about invasive plants)... Is there a general information thread for this type of banter, or is it okay to speak like this in this type of forum?
Oh, and by the way, thanks for your take on indigenous plant life. To answer a bit, I like to seek out interesting harder to find plants somewhat because of the indigenous plants around here. Although they are pretty interesting, it really seems like every parkway/front yard/nursery around here is filled with the same compliment of Austrian Pine, boxwood, flowering pear, pin oak, day lilly, etc. and it gets a bit boring. I also really like finding something say, like a windmill palm that survives here, and having someone visit who is totally blown away seeing a palm tree in Reno! Its worth the research and effort, and thats kind of where I'm coming from.
I think that Sunset is a better reference for us westerners than it is for the rest of the country. I never found their books very useful when I lived in Ohio, but the Western Garden book is my gardening bible now that I'm out here. I think it's because they specifically deal with some of the challenges of the western climate, whereas there are a million gardening books that are relevant for the rest of the country.
By the way, I don't know about Austrian pines and pin oaks, but I can pretty much guarantee the other plants you mention are not indigenous to the Nevada high desert! Ubiquitous perhaps, but that's not the same thing. I think if you looked for plants that truly are native to your area, you might find yourself gardening with some a lot of things that none of your neighbors are growing.
I think it's ok to get off topic. Personally, I think all the good information comes out when people get off topic. I've been in some pretty riotous threads that steered far from the original topic and they ended up chalk full of great information. If somebody has a problem with hijacking, they generally come right out and say so and most are respectful and get back on track.
Sunset books are a quasi reference series. They are released in rapid succession with many including their top ten plant picks and they enjoy an incredible following. Sunset books receive many rave reviews; they’re popular most probably because of brand recognition which Ortho publications also capitalize on. The sunset book with which I have the most familiarity would be their water garden book although friends and family have given me others. In my opinion, I find their publications to be beyond lacking. Nice to leaf through for the decent photography while the pages undeniably contain many helpful entry level how-tos accompanied by diagrams however way too many shortcomings. Their publications often seem to be unspecific as to pros and cons of any given plant and or practice and you really never seem to get enough “meat” to make sound decisions without utilizing other resources. These books just don’t seem to go beyond the basics but in defense of any book attempting to cover everything west of the Rockies, it’s going to be pretty darn hard going beyond generalizations. The book you have seemed to cater toward Californians although when browsing through I thought I noticed a few snippets for people gardening in Nevada. The Index seems to be lacking given most people don’t read a book cover to cover so locating specific information might be challenging for those who aren’t familiar with the scientific names of plants.
Neither the Austrian Pine, Boxwood, Flowering Pear, or the NA native Pin Oak is indigenous to Nevada however lots of people use non-native plants in their landscape designs to include myself. I’m with ecrane3 regarding the Nevada high desert. I’d probably be more inclined to stake my faith in a plant she shared as a suggestion for your property as opposed to what Sunset recommends.
I'm with you on the other Sunset publications (aside from the Western Garden book). I've bought some of them because they have some good pictures that I use for inspiration, but there are better books out there on most of the specific subjects. The Western Garden book is very handy though for figuring out which plants will do well or not. Especially here near the coast, climates change very quickly; I can go to a nursery 10 miles from my house and it'll be in a different Sunset zone than I am, so it's really helpful to refer to the book to see whether the plants they have will actually do well for me or not. Reno has a quite different climate than where I am so I'm not sure how well I'd do at suggesting specific plants--I'd trust the Sunset book over me! Reno's practically on the CA border and is probably in the same Sunset zone as some adjacent parts of CA, so I think it would be pretty trustworthy in terms of what will do well.
I do like their climate zones very much. I'd still take you over their book in a heartbeat if I was interested in planting readily available nursery stock! You talk back!
Thanks guys, I will take on board what you have to say. Upon further reflection, I realize that I do mainly just look at the pictures in Sunset pubs. I use them for inspiration in my yard, but as far as meaty information goes its pretty much entry level stuff.
Tee he, we're both women but I know what you mean.
It looks like the tree of heaven.we have one about 50 feet tall.
Are you talking about the very first picture at the beginning of the thread? That one's definitely a mimosa, it has very finely divided leaves, tree of heaven has larger leaves. Here are the Plant Files entries for those two so you can see the difference.
Albizia (mimosa): http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/1764/
Ailanthus (tree of heaven): http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/1699/