Mimosa picture

Disturbed and damaged areas. What does that mean, really? In So. NJ (and many other heavily populated places, islands of woodsy acres (can't say forests, there aren't any left) are "preserved". But they aren't really preserved because they are bounded by "disturbed and damaged" lands known as suburbs. From this "lovely" landscaping of private properties as well as office parks and light industrial sites, I see within the "preserved" lands many large flowering mimosas, Bradford pears, white mulberry, honeysuckle and other vining plants bringing hardwood trees and Viburnum to the ground.

Preserved lands = Publicly owned infested lands in need of dedicated volunteers to commit one weekend morning or afternoon a month to try to help control, manage, and eradicate these plants under the guidance of a land steward. You may think that 3-4 hours of your time once a month doesn't make a difference but it does.

No, I'm not going to spend all of my time providing links to prove every single thing I say in every single post. And I'm rather offended by the implication that I'm making things up, or maybe too dumb to know what I'm talking about. I may be stupid and egotistic and selfish about aggressive species-- and maybe all of you would hate to live next door to me because I plant that digusting lily of the valley--but I know how I feel about people aggression. This thread is full of an aggressive "my way or the highway!" approach, and I find it offputting. I DON'T like to be made to feel that I'm a loathsome excuse for a human being because I don't accept everything at face value. And I don't like being put down if I have a different opinion. I was trained as a scientist, but I guess that's not worth much if I disagree.

I've done my own research, and it does NOT correlate with everything I've read here. I'm taking this forum off my favorites, and I'm probably not the first to do so.

So flambe away. I'll be busy planting my lily of the valley tomorrow, and hoping it survives.

Um, I'm not sure I should interupt here, but ... I was checking out that USDA site with regard to plants I'm planning on. I can't find lily of the valley, except lily of the valley vine. Does that mean regular lily of the valley is okay? I wanted to put it under trees where nothing else grows.

Hey candy, what do you want to do? There are plants that are a lot worse than Lily of the Valley. It truly depends on what type of information you are looking for on the plant before you plant it. You mentioned you checked with the USDA site so I'm thinking you were specifically looking to see if the plant was formally identified as an invasive species anywhere. Their site doesn't necessarily provide this information although their maps often will indicate whether a species has naturalized or not. Their map indicates that to date, Convallaria majalis has naturalized in 26 States. That's not a good indicator when an introduced plant is listed as having naturalized in that many States that it isn't invasive. There was a partial listing to information regarding the invasiveness of this species included at their site. One point, the word naturalized is associated with exotic plants that have escaped cultivation and gotten a foothold in natural areas. Native plants don't naturalize, they belong in native plant communities. Generally, when you see the word "naturalize" associated with a particular species whether it be the Cane Toad, the Norway Rat, or a plant.... that is an indicator an introduced species has gotten a foothold in our environment.

Here's one link to a photo-
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/invasives/photos/index.asp?mode=detail&Code=Conmaj
Is this the plant you wanted to plant under trees where nothing else has grown?

Planting under trees can be very challenging and a down right hair pulling experience at times. If you would be interested in other suggestions of what might grow under your trees, there are those who have successfully established planting of other species under trees out there who might have recommendations for you.

Thanks for continuing to share information, everyone. There seemed no attacking done here at all, especially directed at you White_Hydrangea.

WH, I don't think anyone meant to offend you--you mentioned that you had heard lilacs were invasive, and since others hadn't heard that people were curious where you had found that info. That's all, just a simple request for more information, nobody was trying to say you were stupid, or wrong, or anything like that. And if you had just heard it somewhere and don't remember where, that's a perfectly fine answer! And regarding other negative comments, given the forum we're in, you can't be too shocked that a few people would comment on your willingness to plant things that many consider invasive. If you're going to be upset by comments like that, then I would keep your planting habits private, at least in this forum! I'm all for good discussion, some plants are invasive in some parts of the country but not others, and there is lots of disagreement about what really constitutes invasive, but if you're going to post an opinion that you know runs counter to what many people on the forum think (no matter who's right or wrong!), people are going to disagree with you and you have to expect that and realize that they're just disagreeing with you, not attacking you personally.

This forum (as in others) is meant for debate and discussion, and doesn't have to devolve to denigration. Just like in my landscape architecture design studios, here we should understand that the discussion is about ideas, not persons. Kudos to ecrane, 4paws, EQ and others for affirming just that.

One can draw a design, put it up on the wall for critique, and pretty sure expect that darts will be thrown at it. The IDEA is to accept that ideas can be criticized without taking personal affront. Ideas are like...well, anyway, everyone's got one (or several even). One can post their idea here, and expect to get a full range of responses. Like with a design, the poster here should be prepared to offer a defense of the position taken. Sometimes that's through some research, but most often it is from personal experience.

Taking your ball and going home is just that. Kind of hard to compete, share, or learn that way.

I believe there is plenty of science and practice to demonstrate the facts of the behavior and consequence of invasive exotic plants (and fauna). I also believe that most plants displaying invasiveness are regional in effect and influence, so it is true that there are species that will not be invasive in CO that can very well be elsewhere. My point would be: we as humans don't leave things be. Note the popularity of the Trading forums here. Much like Typhoid Mary, she who wasn't affected sure contributed to the demise of a lot of others who were. Show me (MO affectation) the value in being part of continuing that kind of cycle, instead of contributing to the promotion of more restorative and demonstrative efforts to use those species sorely lacking in most gardens.

I have a science background (multiple severals in fact) but I don't expect to be treated like Teflon. Fire/flambé away! Helps to have/keep a sense of humor, especially when the IL-mannered folk come out.

Concoct confidence, witticize whining, attempt alliteration, and when all else fails...................post a cat picture.

I'm thinking there's room for everyone as noted by V V. Image pulled off the Internet somewhere but very appropriate. It's not quite time yet to start posting photos of Quercus et al.

How about Smilax, in all his glory?

Smilax is polydactyl! How cool is that! Come to think of it, maybe not so cool if he is making mush mush on your body with all those extra claws- ouch!

IL-mannered people? :-)

or dog photo...

That dog is filthy! I swear she looks as if she has a smile on her face and is all proud of all the work she created for you. How many times did you have to change the water while bathing her and what all did she get into! Too funny. Mine would all do that daily if they could. One likes to sniff coyotee and deer poops and if I'm not careful and extremely vigilant, he'll flip over and roll in them in the blink of an eye. He was so bad once we had to take him to a car wash and we drove with the car windows down all the way there.

Hey, if the pink (or green) gardening boots fit...

That's a carefree canine.

They do it daily, because they can here. lol It's dog heaven. They have a kiddie pool, wine barrels, big water buckets, and the Trinity River usually daily. They're all mostly self-cleaning. Here's another, different dog (sister) - one of favorite water play toys is the sprinkler-she sits on it.

Bear poop is really awful! That's mostly what they find out of the fence. Soooo greasy!

Pretty funny - to car wash a dog (but somehow, it seems to flash a kind of deja-vu thing in my head....hmmmm).

Another proud canine. Self cleaning? Tell me about this?

I... er... uh... haven't had the pleasure of bear poop yet. Don't think I want to either because I know mine would make a bee line to roll in something as choice as that.

We were going to do him here but we didn't want soap suds all over the place and knew we were going to have to lather him up good a few times. We normally take them upstairs to the big shower stall and drag them in but no way did I want that traipsing through our house. What we should have done was run him down to the pond for a pre-wash but then hindsight is always 20/20.

A car wash sounds like a good idea to me, if one were close enough.

Bear poop requires effort to remove (ugh), but the garden variety dirt, sawdust, leaves, etc. comes off when they dry. The dogs play so much in the water, they at least seem clean most of the time. DD liked to jump in the wine barrel and spin around two or three times, then dash out to tear around the yard. Shaggy will get in and just sit in it for ten or fifteen minutes.

I think the layer of dust on them helps with mosquitoes, fleas, and maybe a bit with the heat (a dog variety of body powder). Those girls are just covered with good, ol' fashion, garden variety, dirt.

Dirt is a different story than feces. When we take our dogs on vacation with us, they look all dirty and happy like yours. They do curry comb out quite nicely when they dry off. My dogs are not water dogs. We gave them a kiddie pool once and you would have thought they believed they had been sentenced to death. You have to literally pry them out of the house to go pee and poop if it is raining. Mustn't let an evil rain drop or snow flake touch their bodies or they jump around like they are being electrocuted.

lollololol

(True statement, dirt and feces are different, and there are many differences under those headings too...bear=bad, but coyote may be worse)....
sorry to go off track so bad, mimosa thread folks...

My dog rolled in horse crap once right after it had rained and the pasture was a slop field. That was bad. My blond dog looked as if he was a chocolate covered easter bunny by the time he was done having a field day out there. That time he got it with the garden hose because we were across the street. Disgusting, absolutely disgusting.

Mimosa what?

I just dropped in to ask a (probably stupid) question....started reading the thread...and ended up reading the entire thing. I have a couple of pennies I'd like to invest here.

Now, my first confession...I am a novice and a new subscriber. You guys could talk circles around me any day of the week and I readily admit my ignorance. I am however, medically trained and therefore sensitive to the disease process. My area can directly translate from the fragile human body to our fragile eco-system. Please know that I speak figuratively now.
As the species with the ability to reason, I believe we are obligated to take the scientific information available and use it to protect the fabric that was originally laid down. By this I mean to restore..."as it was in the beginning". The word "pristine" comes to mind.

I also believe that it is each individuals responsibility to seek out verifiable and substantiated information and use that information to make an intelligent, informed decision.
As I read this thread, VV speaks closest to how I feel...
Quote: "Show me (MO affectation) the value in being part of continuing that kind of cycle, instead of contributing to the promotion of more restorative and demonstrative efforts to use those species sorely lacking in most gardens."

I believe too, in less government and more personal responsibility. I want to know someones credentials or have them cite their source before I act on their advice. I don't think that makes me challenging or confrontational or rude. Just someone seeking the most accurate information available before I act.

This is one of the most interesting forums I have visited, but I'm wondering who hid the Mimosa!

Oh yea, my "stupid question"...jeez, I forgot!

Laura

edited for misspelled word ;)

This message was edited Sep 6, 2006 8:33 PM

Very warm welcome to you Echo4u.

The mimosa was hidden under this great big sheet by VV. You can see the faint outline of it if you squint real hard.

Not my bmp.

The mimosa always gets hidden in the most interesting threads, but someone can always find it again.

Equil, how many mimosa trees does Goey, Guy, Geezer admit to having? Just a simple question that I've hidden in this thread because he never strays out of trees and shrubs.......

Tough question to answer. He openly admits to having ONLY one mature Mimosa "specimen" tree. Tee he, he claims he has a deep sentimental attachment to it so he had to propagate it or something like that BUT I've been told by eye witnesses that he has another Mimosa "specimen" on his property. People who have visited recently claim it is healthy and robust and is about 10' tall right now. Add to this that in one thread he claimed he only had one volunteer from the mature "specimen" Mimosa that he admits to growing that he removed immediately. Yet in another thread I think he stated he never let any of the volunteers get beyond knee height without destroying them. Other than that, I have heard people claim the ONLY mature "specimen" tree that he has is laden with seed pods. Poor Goey.

What did you see over there recently? Tell me tell me tell me do! Are eye witness reports accurate regarding the existence of a second "specimen" Mimosa at his arboretum? Inquiring minds want to poke sport at him.

I suppose one MATURE "specimen" tree would be correct. The other, NON-MATURE tree looked to me like it was about 15 feet tall with one "new" branch that he was extremely proud of, and he had me take photos of it to show you specifically. I'd say that branch alone was about 6 ft tall. I haven't downloaded any photos yet, so if you want to see, I can show you possibly tomorrow. I also understand that this non mature tree was given to him. It isn't a volunteer. It also had a flower on it, luverly, just luverly.

The MATURE tree had a ton of seed pods on it. sigh

Oh my, the plant that doesn't exist has sure grown this season. Hmmm, poor limp along lil thing that barely survives in zone 4 or 5 that dies back to the ground entirely the first few years???

Hmmmm. Interesting reading, here. I don't mean to be "insensitive" to anyone, so please don't take my post that way - but I have a question and some observations.

My question is about the "threat to public health" mention re: Mimosa. "Please know that the Mimosa Tree is a host to Fusarium oxysporium f. perniciosum." Could you explain that, please?

I'm not a scientist - is that the "Fusarium wilt" we tomato gardeners are so familiar with? If so, lots of plants, including tomatoes, can be hosts. I'd like to know what you mean, really.

So far as getting rid of invasive plants, I think your battle was lost a long time ago. We live on a 6-acre place here in MO., and I'm pretty proud of the two big Mimosa trees I've raised at the entrance of our driveway and the hedge of them I've put along our back fence. Mimosa seedlings pop up in my vegetable garden and flowerbeds, of course, but they're easy to get rid of compared to the real problem plants I've got.

Our pastures, and everyone else's, are K1 fescue grass - a real nasty character that seeds itself and won't let anything else grow. On the rest of our property, I'm constantly fighting lespedeza, wild roses, mulberries, blackberries, sassafras, poison ivy, and Johnson grass. No, I don't know any scientific names. Some of those are native here, some aren't - but they're all much tougher to control than the Mimosas.

So far as someone mentioning a farmer being reduced to tears by all the Mimosas coming up - well, I don't know what to think about that. I know lots of farmers, and they've all got equipment that can pretty much clear the woods at full speed. They don't really care what they're brush-hogging as they've got the technology now to clear out anything unwanted that wants to sprout. Admittedly, the kudzu down South may be an exception to that statement - but thankfully we don't have it here.

Let me know about that public health problem, though. If there's something about Mimosas that affects human health, I need to know about it and I'll change my mind about them. If I've gotta die, I'd rather it not be from a tree disease. lol Thanks.

Up above, I posted this- Here's an excerpt from the link above that I had actually meant to post earlier- They're mycotoxins. Fusarium species are capable of evolving rapidly. They are more active in warm soils and can stay resident in the soil for years which could lead to an increased risk of mutagenicity. There is much information out there available for the taking on line. Basically, Fusarium species can produce a variety of toxic metabolites known as trichothecenes. It all makes me dizzy which is why I stated it was pretty scary stuff to me but perhaps if I knew more I wouldn’t be so intimidated-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusarium
http://www.narconews.com/~myco/Mycoherbicide.info/HEALTH/Toxicity/HumanToxicityofFungus/toxicity_in_humans.htm
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/Publications.htm?seq_no_115=161092&pf=1
http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/42/11/5109
The first time I became aware of the concerns associated with Fusarium oxysporium f. perniciosum was after having read a paper from the Microbial Genomics Research Unit. Please know I could barely understand what I was reading it was so over my head. I was able to absorb just enough to leave me sitting there in a tailspin. The little I was able to comprehend certainly didn’t leave me with warm fuzzy feelings toward any plant that was a host. I am now very uncomfortable with any type of a filamentous fungi. I also was not all that comfortable with the demand for more research. Appears to me that the scientific community at large isn’t all that comfortable with what’s currently on the table.

Barring Mimosa being a documented host to Fusarium oxysporium f. perniciosum; pesticides alone used to control, manage, and eradicate the species can be a threat to human health. Other than that, there are environmental impacts as noted here-http://www.invasive.org/library/FLFSNoxWeeds/japanesemimosa.html
To the best of my knowledge, F. oxysporum is primarily spread by irrigation water, contaminated farm equipment, infected transplants, soil, and they now believe the spores can be spread by wind. Along with that technology came a price. The cost of the equipment alone is astronomical not to mention the costs of the gas to run the equipment and the manpower to run same. Add the costs of chemicals to the equation and the costs are staggering. We all pay.

Really sorry if you took my comments as me having firsthand knowledge of farmers being reduced to tears specifically because of Albizia. The comment was more pertaining to invasive species in general and farmers I know personally who are struggling to survive. I do come from a small farming community and I currently reside in an area that has several small farmers left and I can assure you that there are few small families left farming around here who haven't been at witts end at one time or another. Not all farmers are capable of competing in the current environment. The cost of equipment and chemicals alone has forced many out of the business and the children, like me, have run for the big cities so labor becomes another issue. It was my grandfather who sat at the kitchen table with his head in his hands in tears before he sold out. It was the only way of life he knew. Don’t ask me what was invading our fields because I was too young at the time to be cognizant of issues facing my own family. This summer it was my neighbor in tears who was losing acres of potatoes. Last summer it was my neighbor losing acres of strawberries. Ozark, I applaud what you do and that includes brush-hogging the woods at full speed. I like to eat and so does my family. If it wasn’t for people out there like you, we’d all be in trouble feeding the masses.

From this site I took the following-
http://www.faultline.org/place/pinolecreek/archives/002217.html

To quote White_Hydrangea from another thread, How eloquently stated.

And my favorite quote of all quotes, excerpt from here-
[HYPERLINK@www.brown.edu]

As Faith Thompson Campbell (1997) puts it, "We should be humble; we may never fully understand the invasion process, particularly for each of the hundreds of potentially invasive species in each of our many ecosystems. One truth is clear: as time passes, many species will spread to new areas or increase in density if controlling actions are delayed."(Parker and Reichard 1998; see Results for the industry's desire for scientific proof)."

I would agree with White_Hydrangea, we've only got one beaker.

Equilibrium - That's an excellent, informative post. Thank you.

Being next door in IL, I'm sure you know what the Missouri Ozarks are like. Steep "hollers", poor limestone soil, lots of rocks, fescue grass pastures, and dense, brushy hardwood forests dominated by oaks and hickories.

I've read accounts of the first non-Indian explorers of this area, and they described it as an entirely different place. Enormous PINE forests with little underbrush, canebreaks taller than a man on a horse growing in the bottomlands, hardwood trees confined to the stream banks, and prairie grasses with buffalo living on the high ridges and plateaus.

No one now living has seen this land as it was in it's natural state. Invasive plants are everywhere. I was floating down a remote Ozarks stream last week, fishing, miles from any civilization. The creek banks there were full of TRUMPET VINES, blooming orange, just like in people's yards. Non-native plants have spread, literally, everywhere.

And no one ever will...

At least you're a realist. The diehards are fooling themselves if they believe we can restore our lands to that which we would have been able to "see" prior to European settlement. This doesn't mean that we can't improve our lot in life though.

Incidentally, the Ozarks are beautiful.

You know, Equi, I sure appreciate all the time and brain-power you put into sharing information!

(I wish those boots were the right size; asking you questions is so much easier than plowing though all the info and evaluating it myself!)

I type fast and I can cut and paste into quotes well. Don't get overly impressed but I do truly lust for those dalmation boots... if they were in my size.

I think the idea is control, not eradication. I know mimosa will never be eradicated, nor will privet. But by getting rid of one mature plant I can eliminate thousands of seeds that would become seedlings. That's a big step to me.

When I think of farming I don't only think of food. You also have to think of lumber and paper. Invasive plants invade pine forest here in the south and decrease diameter growth and reproduction of trees. The result is higher lumber prices which get passed on to everybody.

If I think of eradication, I get very depressed, but at least doing what is right (as far as I know) within my own borders can be mentally gratifying. I have to admit, I get rather upset now that I know what all these things are, when I see them along the river and highway 96, and in yards. Even the tribe plants invasives intentionally (yet they have biologists and stuff working for them!).

Maybe I need to find a way to decorate my '95 longbed pickemup with photos of nasties like the mimosa and buddleia - like Equi's t-shirt idea. Wonder how to transfer photos to metal? (The background on the white truck should be paw prints or dalmation spots...:-)

A mobile mural! Now there's an interesting thought.

In my former home area up in VA, there was a fellow whose wife died on 9/11 at the Pentagon. He took his cargo van to a custom paint shop and had the entire exterior painted as a memorial to the 9/11 victims; it was quite impressive, and probably quite expensive. On a smaller scale, you could do something fabulous with your pickup, 4paws, with invasives: maybe the universal "no" symbol of circles with diagonal lines through them, each featuring one of the oh so popular invasive plants?

I'm fairly new to this forum and to serious gardening, but am already having to wrestle with the subject of invasives. We have several large (20' or so) "junk trees" at the entrance to our property, growing in and on the slopes of the drainage ditch that serves as a storm sewer here in the country. Smaller versions of this tree fill the drainage ditch for a good distance down the road, thoroughly preventing the ditch from fulfilling its drainage function. I recently discovered that the trees are ailanthus altissima/tree of heaven, a major invasive plant here in NC. Now that I can recognize the beast, I see it everywhere: in yards, along roadsides, in parks, etc. Where it grows, nothing native grows: the only things that seem to peacefully co-exist with it are poison oak and kudzu. Everything I've planted within the trees' root areas dies. To ice the cake, our immediate neighbor has a couple dozen tall ailanthus (60' or more) defining his property line, as well as smaller specimens in his yard.

So the reality is that, no matter what we do, we will never be free of this tree; seedlings from the neighbors' trees will haunt us and give us useful labor forever. But somehow I still feel we have to do what we can, which is to try to eliminate the trees from our property, to at least keep them from adding to the problem. It won't keep the neighborhood from being overrun, much less the state; but I'll feel infinitely better if we can at least create and maintain one ailanthus-free acre in NC. Call me crazy, but it seems to me that many people planting or ignoring one or two or just a few invasives is a large part of what created this mess. Continuing to do so only perpetuates and multiplies the problem. Just my two cents' worth as a newbie, and I'll get off the soapbox now...

Well used soapbox time. I have a portable one.

Maybe magnets would be the way to go. Those can be printed on, but they're expensive.

This message was edited Sep 11, 2006 8:13 AM

spartacusaby:

Well said. And, go after the female trees first (if possible) so that millions of seedlings are prevented in future seasons.

Maximize value of effort.

Can I just add also sparta, that that's really all you can do. Clean up your acre and be happy that you've done your best and gotten rid of the things in your own little corner of the world. It's too frustrating to try and clean up all the world, just do you own little corner. You might also, if you have time and have the program, volunteer even once a month to help clear out invasives. VV is correct in going after the female tree first. If I can get the church behind me to cut down their female tree, then all that's left on this street, is one lone male. We were told ours wasn't all that old, yet you should of seen the rot. OMG, that thing was just waiting for the next high wind to come crashing down on my house or my garage. So maybe I'll get lucky and the next high wind takes both those trees down. Hopefully not on anyone's house or the church, but get them down. Both trees are huge and my guess is/was mine and the one that was across the street, were the babies from the one in the church.