LESSONS LEARNED for next year?!

So when you do this are you leaving them outside for the winter? Can you do it in an unheataed greenhouse?

Carol

Carol,
Yes you do put them out and leave them out for the winter and the advantages include getting a jump on the growing season, having a more developed root system, and having your plants hardened off (although I'm not sure what that means for you in zone 8a).

I would think an un heated greenhouse, like a cold frame, would be similar.

except that you would have to take care of them all winter with watering. Leaving them unattended outside is the whole idea!! It's great!! I never thought anything could be simpler. I tried to think too much into it last year and all I did was drive myself crazy. I finally said, what the hay, and just put the seeds in the gallon containers and put them outside. The miracle of mother nature was shared with me that next spring. The container is acting like the greenhouse. If you haven't already, you would greatly benefit checking out this website http://www.wintersown.org/ .

hey anita, got one question for you, when you filled your jugs, did you just lay all your seeds on top of the soil or just the ones that say to do it that way? Connie

I was new to seeds, so I didn't see if they required light for germination or not. I just sprinkled them on top and then lightly covered them with some dry potting soil.

ok, thanks so much :o)

Has anyone had luck doing this in flats? I have so many pots and trays, but I really would rather not have to find a cover for them...I would prefer to just plant, leave them on the deck and see what happens...anyone tried that? I know that is really neglient gardening...but mother nature doesn't provide greenhouse effect either..so I was curious...anyone? Thanks...

The biggest problem with standard flats is that they will dry out very quickly. Most people recommend a container that can hold 4" of potting mix and my experience agrees. I tried wintersowing in trays with about 2" of soil. My success rate in those trays was about 50% while it was about 95% for my milk jugs containers.

- Brent

Where can you get a lot of milk jugs?

Yardqueen, I can airdrop you some when I fly over! LOL! Perhaps you have a neighbor, or someone near who has 2 or more pumpkins, emphasis on more will get those milk jugs quicker! ;0)

Check your local recycling center for empty jugs.

Okay, what about the four" pots that annuals come in and you get the tray with them that holds six to eight pots, will that work, say for daylilies, or canna...

I would say to anyone asking about the different containers - try it. You've got nothing to lose. I think in general, most of us that have tried this method before used the suggested containers and method of sowing from http://www.wintersown.org/ with great success. That doesn't mean that what you wish to try won't work.

Two litre soda pop containers work well too. Just cut in half and If you cut a slit in the upper half it can fit snugly inside the bottom and I have no need to use tape for these.

Good info Mobi...I like not having to tape...also like the idea of tying the bottles together to make them more stable....

That's a good idea, especially if it's stormy or just windy.

I found that using dry medium right out of the bag turned out badly because when I watered the seeds in they were washed over to the side of the container and I got clumps of seedlings. Somebody on the tomato forum said they thoroughly soaked their soil before scattering the seeds on. They probably stick more easily to the surface of the soil if its wet than if its dry.

Ditto on the 4" of soil. I lost some seedlings because my containers were too shallow and they got rootbound. If they've got depth they will use it. I had delphium seedlings that had nice long 6" roots that came out of a milk jug.

Container wise, if you use pots you have to make tops for them. If you cover the entire top, you are going to have to water. That is why milk jugs and 2 litre soda bottles work so well. When you leave the top off you allow for air and for rain to get through.
Don't forget drainage holes in the bottom too.

Dave

Sorry Connie. Slits would work. I just find it simpler to not have to make a top & then add slits.
But it all works!

Thanks for clearing that up for me... I have some pots I am going to be using also... And I don't like having to get out in the cold anymore than I have too lol. But I really like the idea of WSing, If seeds germinate, it really saves alot of time in the Spring after the last frost is over... The only work then is making the beds and planting, I can get use to that lol....

Connie

I've never WS'ed before (though I plan to this year), but I would think one additional benefit of using a plastic jug or bottle is that the contents would have a fairly high humidity level, even with the holes in the top. That would be harder to attain if you used a garden pot with a top on it unless you can manage a close fit or put the whole pot in a plastic bag. Just a thought -- whatever works, works!

1. Someone earlier this year said that they don't bother with a cover and they just have them out on the deck with good success. I would think there would be a big risk of losing plants to spring frosts once the seed germinates or to drying out if not closely watched. I guess it would depend on where you lived whether this might work for you.

2. Another person said (who lives in an appartment I think) that they had good success with 4" pots that they lined up in a windowbox. They used vinyl window shade slats to make a support; sticking each end into the pot to the bottom. They then used a baggie they duct taped to the the pot. I think I also saw a setup with a plastic bag twist-tied at the top, but also using the vinyl slats. Alot more work than a plastic jug or bottle IMHO.

Basically, you can use whatever you like as long as you can get about 4" of soil, can provide openings for moister and the container lets light in. You need to try this for yourself and then determine where you can improve. Until then it's a leap of faith.

I think I'm going the 2L bottle and gal. jug route as those are in abundance for me. I guess if someone wasn't sure they could try a variety of methods during their first try and see what turns out best. I think pretty much every options has been covered and I haven't seen alot of postings for poor results:LOL:
I am really excited to try this so I can avoid the guilt of turning serial killer (seedling style) in the spring. It's almost cruel how I care for and nurture those fragile little things then manage to massacre them before they even see the outdoors:LOL:
This will definitely be better for my conscience!

Yeah, I'm a serial killer, too. Now I can leave for Spring Break. That's what stoppped me from starting from seed...the first week of April is always Spring Break and after the first massacre, I just quit sowing. My oldest kid is 21 LOL so it's been 15 years since I've tried!

Suzy

Oh, I try every year, then just wait, sow outdoors when the weather breaks and then go to the nursery to buy some other stuff. Then I sort through my seeds and catalogs and come here/eBay and buy or trade seeds so I can start again the next season.
Seems kinda sick, once its all said and done:LOL: My karma may improve just by trying wintersowing!

I have a question about the idea of winter sowing...which I an anxious to try, but have mixed feelings. I think if I understand it better I could make a better decision. (Greenhouse vs wintersowing) My question inviolves the very basics of the wintersowing idea, and the more I read about it the more I question this. I understand that the idea is to use the normal course of nature to assist the seeds in germinating at the proper time. If that is correct then why do we need to cover the containers?

Carol

A reason here at my place is that a giant gusher of a rain would come along and displace all the seeds. And the cover can create a microclimate that would hurry them along a little bit. BUT if I had a greenhouse, I don't think I'd need to wintersow!

Suzy

I'm apartment gardening and it's easier for me to do all the WS in one location. There are different growing conditions in each of the three areas in which I would plant something. The front bed is only half exposed due to the eaves hanging over, the back is a patio enclosed by a 6 ft tall brick wall on 2 sides and partially where the entryway forms, the side garden is just where I've dug out along the side of the building (I'm on an end apartment) and it is slightly sunken and alot of waterproof clay, very little sun and against a huge brick building. I plan to do my sowing on the patio and to move the plants from there to their new homes once they are ready.
If I had a greenhouse, well, chances are I'd have my dream home and still have to WS aside from the greenhouse because I'd have the room for all the plants I ever wanted:LOL:

This message was edited Oct 15, 2006 4:10 PM

yardqueen, I think the idea is not needing a greenhouse, growlights, or expensive systems ( you don't have to go to the expense or hassle) and having the tops of the containers keeps the moisture in. Once they sprout and you don't have tops on they can dry out in hours and say goodbye to them as that will kill them faster than anything. I don't want the hassle of watering those pots everyday and during the winter I NEVER water them. Only in the spring do I start watering them. I need EASY and this made it really easy and I get lots of plants. Plus I've noticed I may direct sow tons of seeds and only get one or two plants. With winter sowing I get hundreds of plants that do not need hardening off.

In nature,thousands or even millions of seeds are created in the hope of a few plants. Wintersowing drastically cuts those odds with the safety of potting soil in a sheltered vessel.

Wintersowing, sounds like a delightful method to me! ;0)

Last year I did 50 containers and had about 85% germination rate. The containers that did the worst were the thin plastic that some fruit comes in. The best were the 2 litre and milk jugs. I am reusing all those containers this year.

Thank you for the input into my dilema.

Dave47, that makes sense about the numbers.

So if I want to wintersow I could do it in an unheated greenhouse, the only disadvantage would be no rain, but advantages would be no wind and less chance of animals or other pests.(I live in the country) So could that work?

If so then seeds that require stratification I could wintersow in the unheated greenhouse, and other seeds I could start in the heated greenhouse in late winter. Does that sound like a good plan? This is my first year with a greenhouse and I am actually going to have a second unheated one before winter. It is also my first time to go crazy with seeds...I always buy my plants at wal-mart, home depot, or other nurseries and do not plant seeds at all.

Yardqueen, I don't know enough aout zone 8 or unheated greenhouses to answer your question. Hopefully one of the experts will stop by.
Dave

Hi! Yardqueen!

Well lucky you! Someday I'm going to set up a greenhouse.

I'm no expect but I'll try to help you out with your thought process.
The wintersowing container is essentially a mini cold frame (unheated greenhouse). By keeping the containers in YOUR cold frame covered you'll keep them in a humid environment (the humidity well also help germination) so they won't need to be watered so often. And they will be safe from animals! My solution to that problem is to entrench my wintersowing area with cinderblocks and lay a sheet of garden cloth (a heavy wire grid) over it that has been framed and weighed down with rocks. I still need to figure out how to keep the slugs out though! You and are have the same zone, so we both enjoy quite mild winters. I think wintersowing would be very successful for you, as it is for me. I do most of my sowing in the fall and mid-winter. With the few tender annuals that go in pots, started in my plant window in the kitchen under a chick brooding lamp!

I think the only other things you should be aware of is to maintain good circulation and watch for damping off. It helps to start with sterile containers and occasionally water with chamomile tea or a weak solution of H2O2. I lost a lot of seedlings to damping off before I learned that trick

I think you'll enjoy sowing seeds yourself as opposed to buying plants in pots. It's like raising a puppy or a kitten instead of buying a full grown animal. There is just so much more joy and attatchment!

This year's important lesson to me is remembering that Winter Sowing really is all about watching and following Mother Nature--not just the cycles of the season, but keeping my eyes open for what is growing in my area. A few days ago I took a walk at a nature center with my husband and seeing all the native plants going to seed reminded me that it's important to sow plants that thrive here, but to not sow plants that might be invasive. We need to use some wisdom and not get carried away with the compulsive urge to sow every seed we can find. ;-O

In response to this I made a few webpages over the weekend to help maintain this concept. There are several WS forums, blogs and discussions popping up across the internet and it's vital to the WS movement that we don't ever become a venue for spreading invasives--that would not be good at all, no no no. The first page has some common sense advice, but most important, at the base of the page are some good links for reference. The second page is a table of North American Links for depts of natural resources, state and province parks, and museums of natural history. All of these links will be regional starting points where WSers can learn more about their native environment, geology, weather patterns, etc so they can begin sowing plants that are beneficial and most importanty, so they can sow plants which are not harmful to our local ecological systems.

Observing the Natural Environment
http://www.wintersown.org/wseo1/Observing_the_Natural_Environme.html

Observing the Natural Environment Link Table
http://www.wintersown.org/wseo1/Natural_Environment_Link_Table.html

This message was edited Oct 23, 2006 4:20 PM

This message was edited Oct 23, 2006 4:22 PM

Hi, trudi--

What you say about native plants makes so much sense and your new web pages are a great resource to learn more about sensitivity to the environment. Lots of good informaiton there!

Thanks for taking the time to add them to Wintersown.org. and telling us about the addition to the website.

Thank you--that's the first time I ever made a table.

I certainly learned a lot about North America too while I made it. I have to admit that I had never heard of Nunuvat--I don't remember that province from eons back when I was in grade school. Some states, when you go looking for their department of natural conservation, seem to have it grouped in with the fishing and hunting license agency--I had to hunt for it ;-) You would think that every state should/would have something vaguely named "natural history museum" but that also isn't so. In some cases, like California or NY, which have a few NHMs, and all of very good quality, I usually took the highest position site on google. RI, doesn't have, per se, a NHM, but has a system of linked museums. WV, has a few excellent museums, but I selected the one "in the park" because it was a natural setting. It took several days, to find and source the links for the table.

The other links, the ones that link to gardening and extension information take a while to select. You can google "butterfly garden extension" and get dozens of hits, but not all have info that dovetails well with WS. I was delighted to find a page of IPM links from Mich.State that was made by a fellow named Randy Heatly. Randy is the grand-daddy of extension websites. It was his ideas and concepts and hard work that made the very first extension site. A few years back, at a conference in Beltsville, I was going to facilitate at a group discussion led by Randy, so I thought "Oh cool. I'll hand out papers and listen in." But he sat down with his coffee, gave me the flo-marker and said, "Here Trudi, you do it. I'm retiring." ;-O I'm very fortunate to have worked with him that day--a few minutes one on one with his mind helped me solve some conceptual problems with WinterSown.Org, since then, what was hard is now easy.

The Winter Sowing Databases are now permanently located at WinterSown.Org

http://www.wintersown.org/wseo1/DataBase.html

These databases are just a few years old and as such are not complete or entirely reflective of plants which can be WinterSown. It will take at least a decade before any particualr plant can be ruled out for WS.

T