Can I raise a Contentious Issue?

Can I raise a contentious issue (in a very small voice - especially 'cause it's a rather long post)? I know DG is an American site, and many members are in the US. Many aren't though, and US common names aren't much use to those of us living elsewhere. Using common names isn't confined to US gardeners, but the use of botanical names seems less popular than elsewhere. And it leads to confusion, to say the least.

A lot of varieties of Agastache, for instance, are grown, and they're known as Anise Hyssop (it isn't either Anise -that's Pimpinella, or Hyssop - that's Hyssopus), or Liquorice Mint (it isn't Liquorice - that's Glycyrrhiza, or Mint - that's Mentha), or Camphor Hyssop (Camphor's Cinnamonum), or Mexican Bergamot (not a Bergamot, either - that's Monarda).

What you call a plant in your garden is entirely up to you, but I just thought that maybe DG could be a bit more precise. Currently the Trade Lists and Database list plants in alphabetical order of their US common names. We could find Agastache under 'A' for Anise (which it isn't), 'B' for Bergamot (which it isn't), 'C' for Camphor (which it isn't), 'H' for Hyssop (which it isn't), 'L' for Liquorice (which it isn't), 'M' for Mint (which it isn't) depending on what the person who entered it called it - but not under 'A' for Agastache, which it is, unless we re-sort the lists on each occasion we look at them.

If you're used to common names, you might well be using a different common name from the one someone else uses anyway, so listing by alphabetical order of common names might not be listing in the order you'd expect. If you're used to using Latin names, it can be irritating to find the Trade List you've carefully put in in alphabetical order appearing in apparently higgledy-piggledy chaos.

It would also make it more likely that a plant wouldn't be put in the DB more than once - at the moment, the same plant could be in under several different common names (one or two are).

So what I'm suggesting is that the default order for the lists could be alphabetical order of Latin name, not US common name.

People who feel happier with common names would still be able to have the list in alphabetical order of common names, by clicking the header on the common names column.

Any thoughts, anyone? (I bet there are!)

I can't believe how much more I'm calling things by their real names since I've been living at Dave's. It really is an education, and if I hope to do more international trading and really know what I'm getting even from US trades, it just helps me to study. Thanks for all that encourage me to do this:)

This message was edited Monday, Jul 16th 4:02 PM

Jim,

That is a pretty parochial position and maybe a bit lazy -- you could put both "your" common name and the official name for those other 6 billion people living elsewhere. (Excuse my curtness, here. Been spending too much time on discussion forums. LOL)

I am a professional gardener and have my own names for plants part in spanish, part in english and part in latin. My crews and I use these names internally so to speak but I would never use them elsewhere.

No serious gardener can go long without learning at least the most common plants by Latin names. Yes, there are some plants known widely by one or few well-recognized common names but many have many common names.

I once did some ethnobot. field work in South America and worked up a list of indigenous names. I later learned that the reasons why some different plants had similar names but no botanic relations was that the native names were mostly descriptive: "big thorny bush", "yellow flowered moth plant", "our people plant", "thatch plant." Different tribal groups had variations on or different "names."

Mary

I agree with you it is difficult for those of us not in the USA, Rose of Sharon is a prime example of the common name in the UK and Ireland not being the same plant as the one it refers to in the USA.

There is a benefit to using botanical names, not only in the fact that its a standardised form but also if you have an idea of what it is related to then its easier to find information on the growing conditions it needs. The species name is also important, palustris is a species name which says a lot about the kind of conditions a particular plant needs (for those who don't know it means grows in marshy ground). These are the reasons for giving a plant a botanical name. You don't need a degree in classical languages to use botanical names either. One of the best ways to learn botanical names is to get a good catalogue, Chilterns even gives some translations.

I don't discount the use of common names though, while they may not give a great deal of information about the plant it does make them more attractive to beginners. One gentleman I buy from always says that the plants without a common name in his catalogue are less likely to sell so he has resorted to making them up!

This message was edited Monday, Jul 16th 4:04 PM

Sorry to offend; my remarks weren't to be taken personally. I was referring to the easy practice of putting down the familiar name rather then maybe having to look up the scientific name -- I do that myself when sketching out landscape plans and writing. Then I go back and add the Latin names if that is appropriate.

Watch the bp; been there and managed to bring and keep it down through relaxation techniques, diet and gardening, not necessarily in that order!

Well I guess I'm lazy because right now I just want to garden and not have to study to do it. I started gardening after I had a miscarriage and it helps alot. Right now I am not concerned with the botanical names of the plants I grow and I don't have the time to be. I guess that means I am not a serious garden but to people who know me,knows I care very much about my gardens. When I look at a trade list and it only has the botanical names I almost never bother with it because I wouldn't know what I was getting. I do understand what you're saying but I know alot of new gardeners that would just forget about it because they wouldn't have the time to do the research.

Mary this is one American that totally agrees with you. I'm not a professional - no horticultural education and just the average-Joe backyard gardener ... and the only way I learned the Latin names was to use them. I force myself to use them - with the common names - even if that means dragging out the 20 pound Hort book to look them up. There is so much confusion with common names you can never be sure what you have when it come to true plant identity.

I think the default order in the data base should be under Latin names too - it's the only consistent way to look up a plant. Common names very from region to region - grandma to grandma. Lets take Centranthus ruber for an example. Common names include valerian (also used for several other genus), Keys of Heaven, Jupiter's Beard, red valerian and what ever other silly name grandma might have made up for it in her day. And of course there's Centranthus rubra alba - what do you call this - White red valerian? With out a Latin name I wouldn't have a clue what to punch in to find that plant in the data base. There are so many trivial words in the common names that dictate the order the plants are listed - like colors (red valerian, white bellflower, Orange coneflower); size (Great Blue lobelia, small yellow foxglove, Big flower coreopsis) ; leaf - (fernleaf, lanceleaf, cutleaf) - then you have creeping, climbing, hardy, tender and all the other descriptive word that designate the order. If looking up achillea filipendulina I'd look under "Yarrow" for a common name and I'd expect to find all the yarrow species listed with it but a.filipendulina is listed under Fern-leaf.

I think as the database gets bigger and bigger it will become a mixed up jumble and it will be nearly impossible to find a plant in the default order. Do you look under Blue- big-fernleaf- or creeping? No matter who's lazy -I think we all qualify for under that catagory.

It's certainly easier to find info on a plant by using the latin name. Often a web search by common name brings up nothing or too many choices.

I don't think anyone is saying that people who use mainly common names are being lazy or are not serious about gardening.

Like Poppysue and many others here, I'm not a professional horticulturalist nor do I have any training in the field. You don't have to be to have a great garden and yes it is very theraputic for all sorts of things.

I think its more of a case that we use BOTH sets of names rather than just one so that:

1) we can all learn together
2) there is little confusion on what we have listed here or problems finding things.

Lets face it, isn't that why we are here?

I'm a word person - writer, reader, I used to take the dictionary in the bathroom with me! Anything that has as many names as any given plant, for intance inpatiens: bizzy lizzy, slipper plant, touch me not, is going to fascinate me right down to my toes. And when I can put something specific with the common name, all the better. The Latin gives everyone here a fair shot at what's being discussed and it really isn't that hard to find. There are several sites with proper taxonomic names, and when you start looking into them, many are as fascinating as the common names. Anyway, it is ALWAYS good to learn something new everyday, and if it a cross reference of names for your favorite plants, just think how much more fun you can have here!
Kathleen

Any name other than the Latin is just plain confusing and a lack of desire to learn the real Botanical name by the gardener involved . IF you want to trade with me OR many other Hard Core Plant Collectors , the transaction will be done in Latin or there will not be a trade . That is the reality of the collecting world . If A PERSON CANNOT be bothered with Latin names , then they should just stick to status quo gardening and common plants . I need the wild world of endangered plants SO I will utilize the Latin and continue with the learning process . Best to you all and ROCK ON !!

This message was edited Sunday, Jul 15th 8:11 PM

whew!! glad there are some among us who aren't so rigid, or I wouldn't have much:)
It's not that I don't care, I'm in a learning process. And will always be.

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Oh my goodness...this is a contentious issue! I grew up among great gardeners, most of which used regionally common names for plants. And, I feel indebted to parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles that taught me so much of the knowledge that I apply to my gardening/landscaping/collecting efforts today. However; I need to communicate with growers/gardeners/landscapers around the world. And, I need to know that when a "label" is applied to a particular plant, it is one that is commonly understood...so, I choose to learn the botanical names of plants.

On the other hand, there are great gardeners that simply want to make their spot on this earth a more beautiful place and could care less what the Latin designation of a particular plant might be. So be it. Thankfully, we have the option of choosing where we want to be on this continuum.

Let us all continue to make this earth a more beautiful and fruitful environment. Best to all, Diane

I'd just like to say that I am not a "lazy" gardener, or one who doesn't like to learn...I live for weeding and planting any new flower I come across...I have a hard time learning latin names...Call me slow, but some of them are hard to pronounce, let alone remember...I've noticed that when you go to a garden center, the plant tags list the common name first, then under that is a botanical name..Is there a reason for that??...I'm getting better with botanical names, but wow..I do understand that many people call a single plant many different names...I will look up a botanical name if it's one I don't recognize....I'm sorry, but for the person who won't trade with someone because they don't know/won't list the botanical name, well that's a shame...There are many others to trade with...I've met so many wonderful giving people on here since I joined...It's one of the highlights to my day, coming to this site and see how everyone is doing....Just wanted to share my feelings... :) :)

I vote for Latin. That ends all confusion when trading or discussing a certain plant. It is bery easy to look up the latin for the common or vice versa. It would be very difficult to have a databse that defaulted to the latin because what one plant is to me is an entirly different plant to someone else.

Meplant : PLEASE do not feel sorry for me one iota . I have over 1000 different types of plants in my collection AND I am very difficult to trade with anyway . Keep doing whatever you are doing and progressing with the learning process . Do you really think that I can remember all of the botanical names all of the time ?? ? NO WAY !!! I have reference books that must be utilized BUT I will always look up the latin name when trading . Rock On!!!

Wow! This is really a contentious issue. For my part, I vote for Latin names. I'm not a professional anything but musician. We had to learn all kinds of foreign, mostly Italian, names for things like slow (Andante), Fast (Allegro), etc. That's so that people around the world can read and understand the same thing in music. And I guess the same is true for plants.
I have a smallish perennial garden and don't have the space to try out too many mystery plants. So what I've done with trades that come only in common names is: if there's any confusion about the name I just use that trade to generate other trades. P.S. It takes about 15 minutes to learn a Latin name. And repetition will really dig it in. And who cares if you mispronounce it. And nursery people around here use only the Latin names.
Ruth


This message was edited Monday, Jul 16th 7:04 AM

Thanks everyone for an interesting and intelligent discussion.

The vast majority here favors sorting by latin names, so that's what we're going to do. This morning I updated the Plants Database to default the sort this way:

Family name
then by Genus
Then by Species

Go check it out and see what you think.

Thanks,
Dave

Hello again,

Some time ago I wrote a latin name lookup tool, but never released it to the public. This morning I polished it off a bit and uploaded it, and I'd like to see if you think it's a good idea and if I should make it available for everyone's use.

It's here: http://davesgarden.com/latin/

Type in what you want to search for, and it will search through a database of over 7,000 names and return the family, genus, species, and common name that matches your search query. Is this something that would be handy for our members to have constant access to?

Dave

awesome!!! Dave, that will help bunches. I don't want anyone to think that we don't care about the Latin names. I'm so proud when I remember or recognize one and it's becoming more common with me. It's just that we have to start somewhere, some of us are just becoming familiar with them, and I hate to see us looked down on because of that. Dave, the tool looks wonderful, thank you!!!!

Dave you ARE awsome! Don't mean to be a pain in the rear... but I think it would be more helpful if the genus was to be the default sort. I think sorting by family will have all of us confused. I know I hardly pay attention to the plant families.

The name look-up is a great idea. Did you type in all those names yourself? I punched in asclepias and it came back with 24 different species! That would be a big help to everyone.

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Mary, thank you so much for bringing this to my attention! I will now remember to include the latin name to plants I mention. Being in my little corner of the world, I tend to forget that DG is read world wide and common names without the latin name can be confusing. This can be very educational for everyone..thanks dave for all your hard work too! "YOU DAH' MAN"!

I have finally come to the point in my gardening journey to "see the light" on the latin/common name issue. For me, the biggest hurdle has been (and probably always will be) mangling the pronunciation beyond recognition. (Which is my personal favorite reason for using common names.)

But I have come to the conclusion that Latin names are best for all the reasons mentioned above. And I'd encourage everyone who adds plants to the database to try to fill in the pronunciation field. In the long run it'll help all of us become more comfortable using these names when we speak and write. Dave, thanks for the new feature - you ARE the man!!!!

Okay, Sue, I updated the plants db to sort by genus,species.

I didn't type all these in myself (that'd take an eternity). Rather, several months ago I obtained a database (freely available) from the USDA. I never really knew if folks would want this kind of tool, so I just stashed away the database until this issue came up. :-)

The database does need a little updating, however, as it is showing some old (defunct) genera and families. But, it's the best thing in existence, as far as I know, and should be a great tool for our newbies and oldies alike.

Also - I hooked this tool into your trade list. When you add an item and go back to the viewbystatus page (Click on "View Wanted" or something), you can then click on "Latin" and it'll automatically try to lookup the latin name, based on what you had entered in the common name field.

Dave

Thank you Dave, how wonderful for those of us who are Latin Illiterates!

Jerrie

This is cool. I updated it to also cross-reference to the Plants Database, so when you search for something, it will also see if that plant exists in the plants database and will offer you a link there.

Some examples:

Radish: http://davesgarden.com/latin/index.php?search_query=radish
Crepe Myrtle: http://davesgarden.com/latin/index.php?search_query=lagerstroemia
Daylily: http://davesgarden.com/latin/index.php?search_query=hemerocallis

Dave

Dave, I do believe this is the coolest tool I have ever seen! Now I can begin my Latin education. Thanks bunches!

Jerrie

This message was edited Monday, Jul 16th 4:06 PM

This message was edited Monday, Jul 16th 4:12 PM

Georgiaredclay : Only one thing can sum up my feelings toward your comments = zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ..... With 78 acres and a full time job , I only have so much time for a limited number of gardening people so obviously we won't be trading in the near future . BTW : I usually only deal with USDA Z6 growers anyway AND I DO trade with many worldly folks , BUT they all know the Latin names OR are at least they are willing to learn them . Rock On into the standard fare / status quo gardening world , Jimbo !!!

zzzz.....?????

Jim, I count you among my dear friends, and hope to trade and talk with you for many years, in Latin or good ole GA redneck.



This message was edited Monday, Jul 16th 5:08 PM

This message was edited Monday, Jul 16th 4:49 PM

OK now lets put our feelings aside Who would think this would be such a sensitive subject. There are many common names for one latin named plant. You must have the latin to positively identify it. If you dont have it, its a mystery. I like to know what exactly I have. It is that simple. You dont have to have the latin memorized. Just on hand. To refer to. Why not learn more?
We all have one thing here that brings us together. Our love of Mother Earth. No need to get upset with each other.

Before I started gardening, I read as many books as I could on the subject and was introduced to Latin. I have found this invaluable and it wasn't too hard. You see the plants you really love and want and you really do remember their Latin name. I know I get the pronunciation wrong sometimes but that's OK and someone will surely correct me. I don't want to go into a nursery and see a plant labelled "mallow" because it doesn't identify the plant for me. It could be any mallow. Lavatera is like a mallow, but it's not a mallow. It takes a little time but it truly is worth it in the end.

A rose by any other name could be called a skunk cabbage.

L.M. Montgomery wrote that, or something similar to it...

I have to agree with Poppysue and Mary latin names are standard world wide.

yellow coneflower could be a Rudbeckia aka Black-eyed Susan which is also the other name for Thunbergia. some Rudbeckias are known as Brown-eyed Susan which is probably the name for something else.Rudbeckia = coneflower = Echinacea and mexican hat = coneflower but it's Ratbidia.

latin names look so difficult to learn but it only takes to learn a few a week and soon you will know all the plants in your garden. it has taken me only a few months to learn mine and I'm adding them at a huge rate because I'm visiting more and more private gardens where no one uses common names.

sometimes a plant changes name e.g from Telekia to Buphthalum. the latin name has changed but the common name Yellow Ox-eye didnt

even if you grow throw away bedding plants it's easy to know their real names

I agree the data base should be A-Z by botanical names. all my entries are done this way.

Mark