Co-ops have been reinstated

Just in time for the spring buying season, we have finally reinstated co-ops on DG.

http://davesgarden.com/forums/f/groupbuy/all/

Make sure you realize that we are taking our HANDS OFF this thing, and it is definitely 100% a buyer-beware proceed at your own risk kind of thing.

enjoy!

(Vendors may not host co-ops.)

dave

This is very good news indeed! I've purchased many great plants I would not have bought otherwise because of the co-ops.

Thank you Dave!

Happily :) I'm looking forward to seeing active co-ops.

Dave

Okay, they are closeable now.

dave

Marvelous - that will be a big help to the organizers to be able to definitively mark their thread "closed" when they're done taking new orders ;o)

oops

This message was edited Apr 11, 2006 5:41 PM

The original thread was deleted, and I understand why. But, there was some good information in there.

I personally would like to have you clarify something for me. Vendors are not allowed to do co ops, I get that. But, what is the difference between a vendor doing a co op themselves, and another member just taking orders for them?

I thought part of the point of vendors not doing co ops was to keep them from benefitting monetarily from their membership here... I know that Bert and Dori were kinda slapped on the wrists for doing their co ops, but, we have another co op for Bert right now, and a potential one with another member who is a vendor.

The vendor is, or more than likely is shipping directly to the participants, but a regular "member" is "taking the orders" isn't this a circumvention of the rules? And if these are OK, why not just let the vendors conduct the co ops themselves... it seems pointless to have the rule if all a vendor has to do is find a member to conduct the co op for them.

I don't want the co ops to go away, believe me I don't. But, I'd just like a clarification of the rules now, before I do something that gets me or someone else in trouble. Can *I* conduct a co op with a vendor who is also a member, just take the orders, and let them directly ship the plants?



This message was edited Apr 8, 2006 12:44 PM

i would really like to see the answer to this too.

We don't let vendors run their own co-ops because of the potential for abuse. Allowing vendors to run co-ops would open the doors to them paying $15 to subscribe just to offload their excess inventory on our members, under the guise of a "co-op". If anyone is approached by a vendor to "shill" for them, they should report it to the administors here.

Having our co-op forum become a dumping ground for end-of-season stock would quickly quash everyone's enthuiasm for co-ops. And the good vendors who subscribe here would find themeslves tarred with a really broad brush of skepticism: a few rotten apples would ruin it for all. Our AUP has always prohibited vendors from using our forums and dmail system to promote their business. That same provision covers the co-op forum and co-ops.

So why do we let members organize co-ops from vendors who are subscribers? Because we don't approve or disapprove any co-ops. Period. We don't look at who's offering a co-op, who the vendor is, or what arrangements they've made for shipping.

Personally speaking, I would not organize a co-op with a vendor who's a fellow subscriber, and here's why: if something goes wrong, it's going to sour not only the business relationship, but friendships as well. (That's just the nature of things - subscribers use our forums to gripe about lousy vendors - if that same "lousy vendor" happens to be a subscribing member, things will get ugly in a hurry.)

If I were a vendor, I'd be very reluctant (for the same reasons) to say "yes" to anyone who hit me up to supply their co-op. Maybe that's the pessimist in me, but if something goes wrong, the vendor has lost a lot more than an order that went bust.

So - I guess my question back would be: given the possible downside, why would anyone put a vendor friend in the position of jeopardizing their friendships here? I wouldn't - but if someone else would, I guess that's their choice.

Good answer.

I'm wondering if I have a small business that sells Daylilies, can I host a co-op for another vendor that sells Daylilies?

For example, I sell, and I know another local seller who is not a member of Daves, that is moving and has to sell most of his growing stock this Summer. Would it be acceptable for me to hold a Co-op for him?

I can see where it would only be my word that the plants come from someone else and I am not making any profit.

Would it be any different, if I sold entirely different plants?

Just trying to completely understand the rules.

You said Vendors can not host their own Co-ops. I understand that part, but if you are a vendor, can you host any Co-ops at all?

Thanks for any clarification you can add.

If you're a vendor, the answer is no, you can't.

The reason is because we're can't - and won't - audit your records to see where the co-op plants are coming from, which would be the only way to try to enforce the AUP rule. (And that would put us squarely back in the role of approving/disapproving co-ops.)

OK, another clarification, and you kinda already answered this, but I want to be absolutely sure. Let's say, I'm doing a co op with Member ABC who sells shamrocks. I put the co op thread up, and keep track of the orders, do I have to collect the money, or can I direct participants to send money directly to Member ABC because they are going to be direct shipping?

I'm thinking the answer is yes, because since you're not monitoring, how will you know who is getting the $$ , but I just want to be absolutely certain I'm clear.

You answered your own question. We're not going to hover over the co-op forum to tightly monitor the transactions. So no, we don't know who's collecting the money.

We've stripped away all but one very simple rule for co-ops, and we trust our subscribers to act in an ethical and responsible manner, including respecting the "no vendors can run co-ops" rule.

What you're suggesting could wind up being a pretty dangerous game for vendors just to sell a few plants. Violating the no-promotion rule has resulted in more than one member's (and a few vendor's) membership and posting privileges being permanently revoked.

I understand that Terry, and I'm not saying that I'm going to be doing a co op with a member/vendor. I had thought, obviously incorrectly, that you didn't want member/vendors being the organizer or supplier in a co op.

Hopefully all will be well, and we won't end up with people subscribing just to do a co op I immediately think of a vendor subscribing him/herself as well as an employee or something to do the co ops for them. What is the cost of two subscriptions when you have the potential to make some major sales? The reason for not letting vendors run co ops but supply for them could easily be just as abused as the vendor running the co op directly. If I just said that right.

Hopefully everyone will be on the up and up and remember if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. :-)

One other thing I didn't think to mention last night might factor into the discussion here. The co-op forum is completely invisible to non-subscribed members, just as the DG forum, Prayer forum and Parking Lot forum are.

So the only way a non-subscribed vendor will "catch wind" of this possible sales outlet is if co-op posts are made in other forums. Which is another reason to keep all co-op discussions in the co-op forum ;o) If vendors don't know about it, there's very little potential for one of them to sign up and create the scenario Melissa described.

As a side note, this also affects who can participate in co-ops. We've already had a few "where's that co-op forum I heard about?" inquiries from non-subscribed members. Because it's a subscribers-only forum, only subscribers can participate in co-ops. (If you want to add a few plants for your neighbor onto your own order, and send in a payment that covers yours and theirs, that's fine. But please don't tell your non-subscribed family members, friends and co-workers about co-ops, unless you also tell them they must subscribe to participate.)

I like the new hands off approach. Self-governance can be sustainable, even though it might get a bit rocky at times. Co-ops have evolved over time from a few random participations to something that most people WATCH for as a real benefit of membership. I remember my first Japanese MG feeler in 2002 was open for weeks to get interest. By the fourth one in 2004, it was open for a few minutes before participation hit capacity. I was always exceedingly conservative about varieties and quantity.

I enjoy the opportunity to try something I wouldn't have considered just because someone cared enough to offer it. Bert taught me to love hostas. I got my first daylilies from Terry. Darius and her glads (doubt she has grown one since after that endurance test). Oh, I could go on and on. So, thank you!

We've seen that most/all co-ops appear to be arm's length transactions, which is as it should be. I've also seen a lot of experienced and insightful questions and comments from experiences members help guide people's thinking. So, we're on track!

Here's to more successful endeavors and friendships and people willing to sort out issues with compassion and respect.

Thank You for answering my questions.

This has been a great thread and has clarified everything about Co-ops for me.

Terry, What if I was a vendor but just stopped but then I crossed the international dateline so it became yesterday......(Don't worry I'm joking)
Dave

I have another question...
If I start selling plants and or seeds on ebay, with the ebay store that they have, is that classified as a vendor for here? Or do I need to have an actual web presence/physical store in order to be classified as a vendor?

Melissa, I refer you back to the April 8 flurry of Q&A's to answer to this question because it seems to be pretty much the same song, second verse.

I really don't know how to say this any more plainly than this:

Those who hold themselves out as a mailorder plant/seed/bulb vendor should recuse themselves from hosting/organizing co-ops.

I wasn't sure Dave, that is why I asked. Sometimes folks don't think of ebay as a business.

Melissa visited yesterday and we were talking about this. We were questioning whether buying plants to sell on Ebay/selling on Ebay is the same as being a vendor.

One note on your opening co-op thread, this is near the bottom:

Our only restriction on co-ops is that vendors are prohibited from organizing co-ops for their own company. Our Acceptable Use Policy prohibits members from creating business opportunities or advertising within our forums or d-mail system; that rule remains in force for co-ops, too.

Does this mean you cannot co-op your own plants or you cannot organize co-ops at all? The note at the top of the forum reads differently.

When I was involved in some earlier hoopla, I had wanted to buy a mass amount of bulbs to co-op with me getting the same price on them as everyone else, but getting a better price for ordering more. As it was, I got mine and a co-op went through, but we all ended up paying more for two seperate smaller orders. As it is, I am still policing myself and have turned down offers for others to co-op my plants.

Oh, if I am trading with someone, rather than keep duplicate lists (my site and a trade list) am I breaking any rules by just telling them to pick something from my site? They are all MY plants and I just don't have time for more than one list.

Why are we having trouble understanding the spirit behind our restriction on the co-ops? I'm not worried about the letter of the law here but the spirit it is, which is that businesses may not use DG to promote or create business opportunies for themselves, period. It's a bad idea and creates all kinds of problems.

If this is a huge issue, then I'll just stop co-ops again and that'll be that. But I'm not going to allow them to stay up if it means that we are constantly skirting the issue of what's acceptable or not. Vendors don't do co-ops, period.

Dave

I'm sure no one wants the co-ops to come to an end.

I also don't want them to come to an end.

So, what question is still unresolved here?

Dave

Hi Dave
I have an ebay site and sell mostly ceramics. I also sell a few of my extra hostas and other plants. I organized a coop from Terra Nova recently last month and we are just wrapping up ordering for a second coop from Terra Nova. I guess the question is am I a vendor because I sell a few plants. On the first coop, I bought some of the unsold plants to fill out the trays. I may sell them on ebay. Does that make me a vendor? I guess the question is is there a fine line between hobbyist selling a few plants and small scale nursery?
I am not making any money on the sale of the coop plants to other DG members. I enjoy organizing the coops and I think everyone is enjoying the plants, but I don't want to be breaking any rules here.
We don't have any conflicts amongst ourselves to resolve, we were just talking on a thread, and wondering what constitutes a vendor.
Thanks
Pam

Ok, thanks.
Pam