Alternative Compost Ingredients

A friend of my has a hoppin' mad pile of red wigglers in her compost that do an amazing job. They can eat their own weight in a day, and reproduce to match the flow of material. Just keep them from freezing solid, and they will happily work for you without complaint.

Worms v. Hot thermophilic pile:
Two things:
-Worms don't care about Carbon to Nitrogen ratio. (thermophiles do)
-Hot compost fries weed seeds. (worms don't.)

The ideal thing is both working together. Thermos, then worms.
K

The things you learn on DG! Now I know the personal lives and anatomy of worms in depth and can now understand the thoughts (asexual) of a passionate worm. Wow! And I was only concerned about composting piles. We need to write a book about the compost pile. "Peyton Pile", "Not very desperate house worms", or even "The catcher in the compost".

My favorite was
"One flew over the Compost pile."
by Steve Soferdig.

Let's see if I have this straight. 5 hearts. Can have sex with itself. If the brain goes, nothing changes. So I would conclude that "An Affair to Remember" wouldn't apply to a worm that had sex with itself after it lost it's brain. (I think I have lost my mind after following this trail...)

Do I understand correctly that burying kitchen scraps in the pile is a good thing? HM

Yes.

OK here goes! :)

Zoologically speaking, "sexual reproduction" refers to the formation of a genetically unique new individual using genetic contribution from (usually) two parents. The female contributes the egg, and the male contributes the sperm. (Some slime molds have more than two sexes...one species has 13...but they are the rare exception). Sexual reproduction is the vastly preferred mechanism of reproduction in nature because it ensure genetic variability in the offspring, which in turn increases the chances that at least some of the offspring will survive in a variable environment.

"Asexual reproduction" means making an exact genetic copy of one's self (= "clone"). Earthworms can also do this...usually by accident...if it gets chopped in two, it can usually regenerate the other half. Asexual reproduction is useful in nature if the environment is stable...it takes a lot less energy to make a clone than to go to all the trouble of making gonads, eggs, sperm, finding a mate, etc, etc, etc. However, genetic variability is lost.

"Hermaphrodite" means possessing the reproductive organs of both sexes. If an organism possesses them at the same time, like an earthworm, it is a simultaneous hermaphrodite. If it starts out as one sex and changes to another (some fish and reptiles do this), it is a sequential hermaphrodite. Hermaphrodites rarely self-fertilize because then they lose the advantage of genetic variability.

Earthworms belong to a relatively advanced group of animals (really) that also includes marine worms (polychaetes) and leeches. They have 5 pair of hearts and they sort of have a brain...it's really a little knot of nerves at the head end. Not much to write home about, but it gets them through their day.

BTW, plants have really funky sex lives. Many are simultaneous hermaphrodites. And flowers are plant genitalia--often nice and big and colorful and smelly to attract the attention of pollinators. Think of that the next time you give your sweetums a bouquet. :)

Anyway, the sex life of various organisms is FASCINATING and wicked cool...so many different mechanisms have evolved so a species can survive. BTW various sexual terms in zoology/botany are sometimes "borrowed" and applied to human sexuality, but their meaning sometimes gets shifted around or picks up a "dirty" connotation. But it's kinda silly to make a moral judgement about the sex lives of animals and plants--they just do their thing.

OK, lecture is concluded for today...we'll be having a quiz next class. :)

pam

Pam, Fantastic. Everything I wanted to know but was afraid to ask.

And now, moving our thread to the "propagation" forum?
It seems the Composts forum always has a bunch of dry info Q&As and then one awesome discussion thread. I am truily enjoying it.

I am fascinated by the 13 sexes fungi. That is amazing. What is the role of so many genders- ie, how to they "pair" or need all 13 be present to reproduce?
Thanks for that great trivia, Pam.
Kenton

NOTHING is trivial in zoology! Well, if you're into that sort of thing, anyway. :) That's why I teach--otherwise I'd just bore everyone to death with the vast amount of minutae stored in my head. As my DS once remarked...I'd be intolerable in any other profession.

Anyway, I don't know just why that particular slime mold needs 13 sexes. I do know that they don't all need to be present at the same time...I think just any two do, actually...it might be an adaptation to ensure that sexual reproduction (and hence genetic variation) will occur in a widely scattered or largely immobile population, but I'm just guessing.

You wanna hear about funky sex lives, dmail me sometime about the common barnacle (it's rated R, so don't let your small kids read it :) ).

Whoo,
pam

Slime mold is soo underrated!
Pam, You have never been boring!

Hey Pam! Did you see this week's quiz? I got it wrong. My sex education is incomplete.

Sorry to interruot this fascinating discussion of slime mold and their sex lives. I have a compost 101 question. Is horse manure just as good as cow manure?

xxxxxx, Carrie

Well I always promised my mom I would finish my education,and I guess I did,thanks Pam,BTW,what do you do with your spare time???Mike


I know curiosity will win out,and I'll have to know about the barnacle..Mike

Thanks Pam. A lot of substance presented with style.
Sorry Carrie....can't answer the question on horse manure...but I would make a guess that the value of manure is dependant on the diet of the animal and not the species. However, I was pretty clueless about reproduction until I read Pam's answer..... HM

Carrie: Horse is better. More organic matter and less salt.

How can you show favoritism to any of your children Kenton? Herbivorous manure in any composted form is good for anything wanting to be a plant. Carrie Cow manure is better it has more smell. Ahhhhhh.

Ah, but you said yourself, dear Sofer, that the cows digest it more in all of those stomachs, breaking it down further (closer to inorganic forms). Cow is still good, but Horse is better. Mind you, I forgot to mention that the balance swings another way- some folks don't like horse because it can have weed seeds. A hoe will take care of that quite easily. I don't mind the seeds in favor of the better amendment. I figure, If I'm going to break my back amending the soil, the stuff going in ahd better be the best I can get.

And I must add that only some diets will put the seeds in the manure- I have a source for whom eI have never had a seedling result from the manure.
K

short on green matter........I have oak leaves, stable cleaning from horses with pine shavings, manure and urine saturation ..and I have a little kitchen waste..I compost the fibrous algae that can be scooped from the tops of my earthen ponds, it cleans the ponds up and adds nutritious value to the pile, just only comes once a year and never enough.I also wonder about adding the awful dollar weed that grows in the ponds..just dont want it to root.......

I have weeds, including the dreaded burmuda grass I pull from the flower beds , but I wonder will they reseed, reroot and make more weed problems if I put the finished compost back in the beds

Yes Jackieshar, POND SCUM! That has yet to be considered in composting. Good idea and I will head down the hill to the pond to compost and see. How has the algae, water plants and such worked? Oh Kenton Horses have one stomach but 2 colons that do much of what the cow stomach does. So I don't know what the end product is but I do know that both taste poorly. LOL

You're not supposed to EAT it Sofer!!! It goes in the compost pile "as is"!
ROFLOL :~D

Lana

Horses' dung has more organic matter, you can see it, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Pass the barbeque, would you Steve?

Tonight's linguinni with crab sauce reminded me that I also put shellfish shells in my compost I add crab, lobster, shrimp (clam shells too but they take too long to compost) I assume I'm adding calcium & other good stuff. Kenton & Steve, is this a good thing?
Unfortunately, its only in small quantities.
Dave

I am understanding in stable cleanings that it is actually the horse urine in the staw or shavings that is most nutritious.....but u dont eat it either

The urine has the nitrogen that the bacteria in compost love. It bumps up the N/Carbon ratio.
Mollusks & Crustaceans? I think I've heard of clam shells as a mulch. Sure; variety is the spice of life, eh? Just watchout for cats, mate. (Have you posted any pictures of late, Dave? Somehow I think I saw something nice and managed not to compliment you on it. What was that....)

When I kayaked in the Gulf Islands there were clam/oyster middens which were areas that the natives landed and opened their clams and oysters and large old piles of calcium were deposited there and the soils were rich with plant life. I think part of that was the neutralizing of the acidic soil but slow release of calcium was great for the plant. And the best thing was the morale (sp) mushrooms that were thick when you hit the beach just right. There is nothing on a beach that I would not compost. Well maybe a whale would not work well. Kenton look at my finished compost pile waiting for a deposit in the new stump bed. This is only the spring clean up that came from the garden and woods.

This message was edited Jun 28, 2006 10:20 PM

You put us all to shame, Steve. Who are the potted guys?
And it's Morelle. A delicacy.
Kenton

Potted guys = Swedish Aspen for my horse barn and property. They are dig ups from the yard. This compost was cooked in less than 2 months of cool weather. Now I'm worried about it breaking down too much. I am into soil structure not perfect tiny compost. The pine needles seem to stay about 2 years or more.

Thanks guys for answering my questions.
Kenton I haven't posted a picture in a while but I'll take the compliment anyway.

Funny thing Steve. "What? 99% ideal soil amendment!? Heaven forbid it break down more!" That just means you have the mixture right and 'yoo da man,' but I understand your sentiment. I bet you'll throw in more needles or bark when you incorporate it. Don't worry as the soil will eat it down further when it gets ahold of it anyhow, right! Since you are big in to soil's structure, you thus use generous if not liberal organic mulches and attract worms. What more do you want? Then I guess you dont step on your soil?

Any time Dave. We love to have someone other than we two dozy cranks nattering at nothing.

Latin name on your "Swedish Aspen?" Or did I just miss a Birch joke?

Well, I didn't really want to interrupt the cow vs horse manure debate, but...;^)
Another question, Does anyone bury fish ala Native Americans, or compost it?
Dave

Yep. Bury it deep, though. A dog who has never exhibited any capacity to dig may reinact the chunnel construction to get to it, though. Then roll in it...
Horses rule!
Kenton

You guys are so funny! sharon

In the debate of horse,vs cow,may I reflect on what has "stuck"to me.as far as animal manure goes rabbit wins hands down,by the way.Cow is ready quicker,but horse makes for better fertilizer,and with less weeds,(as for chicken lets not go there),speaking of weeds,but the cow seems to propagate this nettle type weed that does not get killed with the plough,but spreads it .I grew up in the country when it was not cool,and did all those chores,and had both cows and horses, whitch we used to farm the land with.being a dairy farm on river bottom land the horse could out preform the tractor.So when it comes to "meadow muffins",or "country frisbies",The horse is the better of the two,and I lean to the urine answer.all this is from cleaning all the stalls,and spreading it.I have had the experience thank you,and we were never alloud to spread both manuers on the same fields.Mike

I have read about Horse having more "organic material" that is not entirely broken down, thus is desirable. I'll try to find the sciece to back that up before you beleive it... We had a whole thread about it once that has evolved over several enjoyable continuations to be amendment-chit-chat silliness.
Rabbit does have a high organic content, but is quite N-rich and thus better composted before being applied directly, unlike some more "balanced" manures that can be added directly to the soil. Everything has a plus/minus. Variety is more than the spice of life, but just a good idea. Use any any every material you can get your humus-grubby hands on.
But horses still rule.
Nice to see you teatoter.
K

Kenton... You remembered that I tote tea rather than drink it! Have to tell you that I work in an office (not teaching in GA) that has a real fancy coffee/tea machine and lots of these little individual tea pouches that you put in and it brews the specialty tea for you one cup at a time...... those really neat tea names I'd never even heard of but that you're the local expect on! I think of you when I try a new one! :o) sr

Mike, "what stuck to you as far as animal manure" Ewww!

The nutrition in manure is good any way. It is only the flavor that changes. LOL I remember a dairy in Calif. that fed onions to its cows. That was a long shower to get clean and take away the memories. When animals extract material from plants they do it through bacteria that feed on the plant material and become protein for the cow or horse and the material they exude is still all but the use for energy and body building that is needed. Both are photosynthetic materials for all of the plants to reuse. I think it is not important what is best, it is all what there and how to best use it.

kenton,relate to that,Dave,all and more,to include good ole tamworth hog,but those days are behind me know,but my friends wonder about the size 13 shoe,well I left my secerate in the pasture.Steve,I'm a half wit inventer,and a steemer designed for the manure,works wonders on the weed content,and with that in mind,I'll go cow,although I like the N in horse.I am waiting for a thread of "best compost recipe" to come and compare notes,it could be a real benifit to some of us,and those with stuburn ego,can just suffer.I believe a wise man will change his mind,and a fool never admits his mistakes..Mike

The best compost I've ever made was, or course, a happy mistake:
- a base of wood pulp (coarse but compostable),
-grass clippings (N to balance the wood)
-and kitchen scraps.
It was a nice rough stuff that was miraculous with soil structure. It was extremely effective when I applied it when it was not quite finished- so that tha last decomposition stage bound it into the soil... (Oh sigh of fond memory...)

Have you had Lapsang Souchong, teetotaler?
K

Orange pekoe,is the most exotic I've tried,and I would rather compost it,it may help break down hard carbons.I like the idea of letting the last phase of decompasition be in,and part of the soil.I do wood chips,grass,and kitchen scraps,and put every thing through large screen chipper.I have a regular supply of tree trimmings,get the grass clippings from the 6 fields(athletic),that we maintain,the paper screads from the offices(3 large bags wk.)all the cardboard,from equipment,etc. leaves in the fall,from the above mentioned.I could almost be considered a compost sourse,but bought my land because it was depleated,from too much soy bean,with no rotation,and the land began to wash.So i have been building it up since 1982,and it has become a hobbie,and I wish I had a before and after pic.I have issues with land owners renting their land so a dirt famer can raise bumper crops,I realise some of this is from ignorance,but when does it become stupidity??We are the only stewards the land will ever have,and I chose to be the best I can.Mike

This message was edited Jul 3, 2006 4:02 PM