Found a few more pics if this is any help.
The tobacco sticks or short stakes worked great for the peppers but were too short for the German Johnsons and Better Boy tomatoes.
A cage on top of the bales may work, but you'll definitely have to anchor the cage somehow.
I'm repeating myself, but I'm going to try a lattice-type structure over top of some bales this year and see how that does.
Date: 5/7/05
This message was edited Mar 22, 2006 11:03 AM
Cucumbers
Date: 6/09/05
Date: 6/21/05
kent
This idea is just amazing!I am going to try it in my Watauga County NC.garden.Planting season in the mountains is after mother's day.In the meantime I've been planting seed in my green house at the beach.
Thanks
Nancy
When did you set out your transplants? Did you do the curcubits from seed or plants? I usually find that those planted from seed just run right past the sets. I keep seeing a corner of your "real" garden is some of the pics - what did you have planted there besides corn? Perry, (where it is in the upper 20's and spitting snow today.)
Maybe you can use these for your tomatoes.... Kent
Woody's Folding Tomato Cages http://www.motherearthnews.com/recent/do_it_yourself/
Just a thought...
~* Robin
Everybody pay attention....
You need to be prepping your bales shortly, south of the Ohio River...If you've never seen a wet straw bale, you don't realize how hot the interior can get. This process needs to be done well in advance of planting anything. It's just like compost cooking. You can literally burn up a plant if it's too hot. Don't jump the gun and plant too soon...let those bales cook before you do. Not having a formula for the organic method makes me want to give them a bit of extra time to cook. I think it will work fine with organic practice, but the recipe was with the other method and that has to be taken into consideration.
Kent has given us a wonderful alternative to raised beds, and the 10 days to prep them are vital to the success of this method....and actually, with the bales being off the ground and somewhat warm from the decomposition, they should be warmer than your surrounding soil. This may give everyone a bit of a jump on the season.
As far as stakes or cages...what about some concrete reinforcing wire run down both sides of the bales like fences? Use a couple of metal fenceposts driven into the ground at either end and heavy duty wire ties to hold it.
I don't use tomato cages in my garden...I have what we call 'pigwire fencing' run the length of my tomato rows. It looks like pasture fences. I put a metal fencepost about every 10 feet and wire tie the wire to the posts. Tomatoes just get tied to the fence as they grow... and I plant them on the side the wind blows from, so that they blow into the fence instead of away from it.
Some sort of fencing system might work if you are using very many bales.
Like this melody?
~* Robin
Kent has given us good info and you're right Mel - preparation of the bales. We're planning for this now and thinking about the trellissing of tomatoes and melons.
Found this on tomato dot com or something - sorry, can't remember exactly, but how about this on top of the bales?
Sink 8-foot-tall 2 x 2 rot-resistant posts 18 inches in the ground, 5 feet apart, and join them at the top with electrical conduit flattened and drilled at the ends. Tie strings to the base of each plant with a nonslip knot, then loop over the top bar. Braid stems with the strings as the plants grow.
Uses space efficiently
Relatively inexpensive
Provides good air circulation
Wind-resistant if parallel to prevailing winds
Just sinking the posts into the bales down to the ground. Thoughts?
Dea
Man, all of these good posts are great. Can't join in now; I'm on night shift and taking a quick break; whew, running from one address to another tonight.
Perry, remember those days?
Straw,
PLEASE be careful out there. We so appreciate what you and all our law enforcement officers do to help keep us safe.
Robin, that's real similar...my fencing makes lots of 6" squares....that's why we call it 'pigwire' here in West KY...even small pigs can't get through it...but you've got the general idea...any sort of fence will work. I like the pigwire because after my garden is done for the season, I just roll it up and store it behind my shed. I've been using the same fence for 4 years now. By making one long row and tying off the tomatoes to the fence, it keeps things neat for someone who grows as many tomatoes as I do.
I'm a seed saver and grow lots of heirlooms, but bag the blossoms on tomato & pepper plants. This way, I don't have to worry about isolation distances.
Dea, I've seen this method mentioned several times, but you'll need to prune to a central leader, and I don't take any more foliage off my tomatoes than I have to...we get wicked sunscald.
To Kent and Perry...(and whoever else is out there keeping us safe, or has ever kept us safe) thank you...and please be careful!
I recently asked my sister what she thought about my making a raised bed out of cement blocks since I cannot get down to tend a regular garden. I wanted one for cut flowers. I do have a perennial bed that I do the bare minimum to and then containers on my deck. Here is what she wrote, and I would like to know what you all think of it:
I think, if I were doing a raised bed, I would make a perimeter of concrete blocks (not cemented) 2 layers high, on a 6" gravel bed for a footing, just under the blocks. Then I would put bales of straw in the middle. Then I would cover the straw bales with hog wire. Then I would put a layer of landscaping cloth over the hog wire. Then I would put a row of concrete blocks around the perimeter. I would fill that with dirt and compost. A concrete block is 8" high and that should be deep enough for most things roots. The straw would not only support it, but insulate it from the cold. The hog wire would add stability. The landscape cloth would keep the dirt from washing through.
If it worked, the second year I would cement the first 2 rows of cement block in place for added stability. I wouldn't cement the top row because I would want to add to or even change the straw. If the bales start to mold or rot, the second year I would pull it out and use it for mulch and add new bales.
I think the hardest and most important part would be to dig out a 8"x12" deep footing and pack it with 3/4 minus gravel keeping it level enough to support the blocks. It should not be that expensive and I bet it would work great
I thought I posted on this last night so if this is a duplicate post I apologize - I can't see my post in the thread.
Anyway - Hi Kent - you've certainly taken this forum by storm! What an exciting idea. I wanted to ask if you find that the surrounding area is unusually fertilized? This would be a great alernative for me but the runoff from the bales would end up going along the edge of a polyhut commercial greenhouse and they've already told me they will have flats on the ground all spring so they definitely wouldn't want fertilizer runoff going in there. The area I would like to use is slightly sloped toward the greenhouse. They've already asked me not to use raw manure to do a quick lasagna bed.
The 2nd thing is keeping them watered - I was thinking that since they require so much water would this work: Dig a shallow ditch the length of the bale and put a piece of heavy plastic like visqueen, etc down into the depression to line it. Place the bale on top and as you water the run off sits in the ditch and can be wicked up into the bale. Or even create a saucer effect by placing plastic liner on the ground and then tacking it up around the edge of the bale maybe an inch or 2 with landscape pins
- just enough so the bottom of the bale is sitting in shallow water. I'm going to a community garden area and it might be a problem to water every day. I'm not sure of the wicking properties of straw or if water would wick up to the level of the roots with only a 2 inch "saucer" underneath.
My last thought is about raccoons, possums, skunks, groundhogs, etc. Just for example.. I wintersowed a bunch of herbs last night and had to tie up some of the containers with plastic bags. Apparently I grabbed a bread bag that hadn't been soaked in bleach water - which is what I do with all seed starting paraphanelia. Came out this morning and one whole tray was knocked over and the bread bag - which might have had a smell but nothing else was ripped to shreds. Do you think the ammonium sulfate drives them away or at least doesn't attract them? I'd prefer an organic solution but I won't get far if the whole thing is destroyed.
Thanks again for sharing your ideas.
Andrea
Kent, How about some current pictures of your garden? Did you let the bales rot down in place? Or did you move them to a pile and let them compost? I bought 7 more bales and will use them for a flower border and to block the northwest wind, where most of my storms come from. Probably do tomatoes in the ground with a heavy hay mulch but I am definitly going to try the bales for smaller plants like peppers, eggplant, melons and cukes.
This message was edited Mar 23, 2006 4:11 PM
Hey Guys:
I like Kent, am a long time traditional gardener - and as I read the posts - I get the feeling that some of us are taking a simple idea, designed to last a season or possibly two, and engineer it into something more: This seems to me to be a avenue whereby anyone can add nutrients to the source of supply (hay/straw bale) and grow stuff. Now if you have a special need; ie need the plants to be higher off the ground so you can work with then - why not put one bale flat and one on edge - there you go you are higher up - If you can't get to them to water every day - try soaker hoses with timers - it shouldn't take too long to figure out how long a water on vs water off cycle works for keeping the bale nice and damp - trellising tomatoes, caging, staking, pruning, etc - those are all personal preferences and can be adapted as one chooses.
Kent - You have really gotten this group stirred up - and yes I remember "nights" and not fondly, thanky you very much! fyi - after I retired, my body kept trying to get me to "change shifts" for a couple of years - before it accepted the fact that it should act like "normal folks" Something to look forward to :)))
I love the way the vining crops like cucumbers etc. trail down over the bales. Looks so pretty.
Good morning, all! First off, what a blessing this site has become in such a short time. So friendly, so much knowledge.
Hello, Nancy. My daddy lived in Banner Elk (Avery Co.) for 10 years and he always talked about how late he had to wait to garden -vs- the Wake Forest area.
Robin: thanks for the link, and that photo you posted of the trellis is exactly what I had in mind this year for a portion of my bale garden. I had already purchased some concrete wire (5 ft high & 150 ft long) so I could cut to length. I couldn't find any "hog wire" but there is something similar available that landscapers and developers use for erosion control. Most common name around here is silt-fence wire. About 2 ft high.
Dea: any type of trellis idea sounds good. Since I'll prob plant 50 or more tomatoes this year; staking that many 1 by 1 is no fun.
Melody & Berrygirl: thanks; I ask God every day to keep His angels around me and my fellow LEOs. Let's keep our Vets in our prayers, too.
Jnette: I'm going along with Perry about the simplicity route in bale gardening, not that you don't have a good idea. If you do this post some photos.
Andrea: since I mow all around my bale garden, I didn't have any unusually fertile spots. I didn't even notice any greener areas away from the bale, etither. The area is fairly level so not a lot of run off for me. My watering soaks in pretty quickly.
As far as keeping the bales watered, it wasn't a chore at all. I would do a quick watering 1st thing in the morning and 1 after sunset. Initially, the water seems to come out of the bales quickly, but once they get to decomposing they tend to whole more water, longer.
I didn't try the soaker hose method because of the distance to my bales from my water source. I'd have to move too many hoses at grass cutting time. But a soaker with a timer is a great idea as Perry has described.
Not sure about the ammonium nitrate driving away animals. Since I don't use any after the initial prep stage, I don't know how long any residue would last or affect any wildlife. I have rabbits, some raccoons, and plenty of deer, it seems, and I had no damage.
Perry: at least my late shift ends at 11 pm now. Those 7 am to 7 am ones were a killer when I was on Patrol.
Roseone: I took a wheelbarrow and carted the bales to the edge of my yard and dumped them in a pile to finish decomposing. If I had bales with synthetic twine, they may have been good for 1 more year.
I don't have any more photos of my garden from last year that's not already posted and I haven't started this year's garden. I'll start prepping my bales around April 20th. My area is always in danger of a late frost in April.
I can't wait to see the photos from you and everyone else this summer.
WHEW!!! Alot of food for thought here. . .gotta be more diligent about checking these threads even if it's gardening frenzy time!!! Thanks for sharing this with us Kent!
8-) Janet
Amonium nitrate won't deter critters...farmers around her use tons of it in corn fields...they still have deer, coon and rabbit problems. Corn is usually side dressed with it in regular gardens at about knee high...doesn't seem to keep anything from munching. It is probably one of the most common garden chemicals.
If you've ever eaten a Dorito or a corn chip/taco...you've eaten corn that has had amonium nitrate used on it.....I guarantee it.
It breaks down rather quickly into inert substances.
So, melody, as I'm here in 6b and trying for the organic method, I guess I'd better get some bales cooking right away, huh? I'm figuring a little organic fertilizer, diluted fish emulsion/kelp, and a shovelful of compost will get the ball rolling. How will you be going about it?
Pretty much the same way. I'm not opposed to adding a bit of amonia if I see mine isn't cooking fast enough though. The water will get things heated up pretty quick though...don't be surprised to see steam...these bales get hot inside.
I plan on pulling back the straw and putting small shovel fulls of compost in a couple of spots per bale.
My bales will be here on Monday.
I garden as organically as possible, but am not adverse to certian well placed chemicals if used in an educated manner.
Many seasons I never use anything other than what nature makes, but I'm not certified organic, and probably never will be.
Kent, what a great thread! Gives me great hope for a first year or two garden until I can amend the soil. Or maybe continued as my health declines.
I lived in Boone, not far from Banner Elk, and plan to move back to that area... or at least as close as I can afford!
Kent
Banner Elk was originally Banner's Elk.I know some members of the family and they certainly couldn't afford to live there now.
It is a very beautiful place but very very expensive.
As I read down the line of post's here, I see references to the type of binding the bales have. I am in East TX and all the bales I get for our alpaca's have wire. Any problem with the wire?
I told my husband I want my big garden this year as always but have reached that part of the "golden years" that isn't so golden - as in joint pain. No more crawling around on my hands and knees, digging and weeding a garden. I had planned on doing raised beds but could not find the connectors for the boards anywhere. This bale gardening sounds great!
Wire should be fine...here in this area, you get natural or synthetic twine and the natural breaks down about as fast as the straw. Kent may have some other ideas on the subject, but I think the main objective is to keep the bales from falling apart.
Hey Perry, I don't get to meet many gardeners up here in the mountains. Were you doing some work last year that brought you up the mountain to Bloomingdale? I think we may have met at my home.
Wayne
I would like to hear how many plants of various types everyone is using per bale. I know certain things like the tomato's would be one per bale, but smaller plants like peppers, green beans, etc.
Any super neat ideas for underground produce like potatoes, carrots, beets, etc?
Whoops - I just re-read the first of these postings and have the number of plants per bale now. I would still like to hear if anyone has ideas for the underground root crops.
Thanks,
Sharlene
i love to do research and experiment. four years ago, i did an experiment on how to prevent weeds from growing in the garden. for each area that is infested with weeds, i either use 12 sheets of double page newspaper [no color ink pls], or carbox boxes. lay the newspaper on the ground. make sure there are no exposed area [this will allow weeds to regrow.] be sure to place something heavy to hold the newspaper or carboard box, i use bricks. wet the newspaper. so far, knock on wood, i have not seen any weeds in that area. hope it work for u as it did for me.
edited to add: placing newspaper/cardboard box underneath those bales should cut down grass or weed growth.
This message was edited Mar 24, 2006 11:11 PM
Oldflowerchild: Melody said it perfectly about your question concerning wire vs twine securing the bales.
Perry: back tracking a bit; I didn't do any bale gardening with seeds; transplants only; as you mentioned earlier, I was attracted to bale gardening because it was simple and unique.
From my Navy days as a young lad I can still hear my old, salty Master Chief saying KISS: Keep It Simple Sailor!!!
But bale gardening also has the flexibility (just like traditional gardening) for others to experiment with different fertilizers (especially the organic side), going with seeds if they add some sort of soil mixture, or setting up their garden differently or more complex. Just keep us all posted on the progress.
Perry: In my "dirt" garden, I had the same items with one addition: snapbeans. No corn.
oldflowerchild, read this here article: Planting Potatoes Whole: Gardening by the Yard : Episode GBY-202 HGTV: http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/gl_vegetables/article/0,1785,HGTV_3650_1371384,00.html
Propagation: Spouting potato http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/504628/
~* Robin
Several years ago my daughter tried an experiment with potatoes. She dug a shallow trench, placed the potatoes in it and put straw on top. Pretty soon she had potatoes tops growing through the straw. I do believe she added some straw around them for support.
In the fall she would just pull back the straw and there were the potatoes!! All nice and clean, no digging. She just left them in and got them out as she needed them.
I have had lots of potatoes growing out of compost heaps that weren't hot enough.
oldflowerchild,I love your name.That is how I think of myself.
Thanks for the responses to my questions. What a great group!
I am going to get hay bales today. If they have been over-wintered, do they still need soaked for 2 days? I am still not understanding the need for the soaking. Is it because of heat build up in the bale or just to get moisture into the bale?
As to my "groupie name", glad you like it DS_B............... Flower child was taken and I AM getting older, so it fit! hahahaha. Never to old to work outside though. I hope to be working in my garden when the good Lord calls me home!
oldflowerchild: I have no experience except with NEW bales, but older, slow-weathered bales should be fine to play host for your transplants as soon as weather permits. Just eliminate the 10 day prep time and keep them watered and fertilized.
I'm not sure what you mean by "over wintered". If that means the bales have always been stored dry in a barn then I would think you'd have to do some sort of prep before planting.
Here's a brief explaination for the need in preparing and watering NEW bales:
What we're doing to NEW bales is to initiate a CONTROLLED and SPEEDY decomposition of organic matter so the bales can be a good host for your transplants.
During the initial prep stage of the bales they should ideally be kept about as damp as a well wrung-out sponge. This provides the moisture and a favorable environment in which microbes can begin to do their work.
As bacteria and other microorganisms do their decomposition work, the process generates heat with the inner part of a bale heating up the most.
According to sources, an ideal temperature range of around 140 °F kills most pathogens and weed seeds and also provides a suitable environment for thermophilic (heat-loving) bacteria, which are the fastest acting decomposers. If the inside of a NEW bale fails to get warm, common reasons include the following:
1. The bale is too wet, thus excluding the oxygen required by the compost bacteria. (I can't see this happening to a bale since water flows freely out of it and it's not the same as a compost pile/container with no drainage.)
2. The bale is too dry, so that the bacteria do not have the moisture needed to survive and reproduce.
3. There is insufficient protein (NITROGEN-rich material). For WHEAT or OAT straw bales, here's where the ammonium nitrate or some organic source comes in.
I've read recently that green plant material such as HAY bales may not need as much, if any, extra nitrogen source since they are already rich in nitrogen.
4. You've started prepping your bales in too cold of weather and the bales just don't have enough insulation to sustain a warm, inside temperature for the bacteria to thrive. On cooler days last year when I was prepping my bales I even went so far as to use hot water from the house to water in the ammonium nitrate. This may have been unnecessary and over-kill on my part since I'm no scientist.
However, decomposition happens even in the absence of ideal conditions, but not nearly as quickly.
Now, WHY do we need this DECOMPOSITION process at all?
Decomposition within the bales is an excellent source of organic matter and plant nutrients. It has been shown to benefit plants far beyond simply supplying them with nutrients. Studies have shown that compost (and our bales decomposing) can actually suppress the development of some soilborne plant disease organisms.
Hmm, this may explain why I didn't have to spray my bale garden with any insecticides for fungicides last year; I don' t know.
Sorry I got so long-winded.
Thanks for taking the time to explain all that to me! I am very excited to give this a try.
Sharlene
Okay, I have made a 33-foot row of wheat bales next to my garden of 3'x33' raised beds and wet them down as well as I could. I added pelletized organic fertilizer (5-5-3 plus Ca)at the same time b/c that's what I have on hand and because it doesn't filter down as well as ammonium nitrate: much of it is still sitting on top. I also added a good amount of diluted fish emulsion/kelp.
I won't be planting in these for a month or so, but as it's rather cool here and I've never done this before and am trying to go it 'organic,' I thought I'd better start now.
The row (ground garden on the left, covered compost on the right, dog in front):
Zeppy, that looks great. Makes me want to get started myself. And the dog looks EXACTLY like a shephard I had as a kid!! Name was Sam.
Very nice Zeppy - looks great as well as your pal :)
Dea
