The buddleia has to go, doesn't it?

Maybe we should have a funeral thread next spring for the buddleia we folks have to sadly exterminate.

Fortunately for me, I've only had a buddleia for about a year, so haven't become as attached. But the reason I planted it was that I'd seen it growing in the woods, and thought I was just going with the flow. I'm not sure how much my action will impact the local area, or anyone but me, but why add to the problem? As you say, VV, I want to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. OR I have to shut up. (not possible, more than likely :-)

Equilibrium..."Uh oh... ;)" ???

dode:

I would really find it hard to believe that a Clethra is going to get too big for any spot in northern IL. Unless you've actually seen one get bigger than your butterflybush gets each year, I'd go with the summersweet. They aren't identical, but that's not the point.

Additionally, if you HAVE seen summersweet exceed, say, 6'x6', it would not be out of the question to remove occasional stems (it is a slow colonizer unless you live in relative constant moisture and loose soils) to manage it at a certain height and width. And all those excess stems (if any) are among the easiest woodies to root and distribute.

4paws:

Boycott: maybe. Take your business to those who advance the positive and the right: better. And tell the less than savory that you (and all your friends and their $$, ££, €€, and ¢¢) have done so.

Viburnum,

I've not seen clethra up here, period. My understanding was that it was a suckering shrub that produced small colonies. Since I don't have the room for small colonies of anything.....

The butterfly bush gets about 5' high by 4' wide. I will check out the clethra! I was also thinking buckeye, but they get huge. Thanks, VV.

At least one nursery (Beaver Creek) that I buy from in your part of the world is field-growing Clethra; you might also ask Kevin_5 about his experience with this plant's performance.

It'll want wet; I always suggest this as a "downspout" shrub (or Ilex verticillata), for those people that kill everything else around those spots.

Clethra and I. verticillata are both good downspout plants? Cool, I've got a few that aren't diverted or connected up to a rain barrel around here. I have always avoided planting anything by downspouts and those areas are void of plantings. Glad you mentioned that. I will probably do a raingarden one day by one too.

Next time you come up this way to go to Beaver Creek, I'm going to drive with you and see what they have. You said it wasn't that far from my house so I better get my butt over there. I still like Great Lakes Nursery though for field grown.

I just ran across this thread and thought it was rather ironic given this thread over here-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/608415/

Butterfly weed is asclepias tuberosa, not buddleia. Asclepias tuberosa is a native plant.

A. tuberosa is still a little weedy out my way. A. verticillata is weedy out my way too but I do have to admit that I didn't catch that they weren't talking about Buddleia. We refer to Buddleia as Butterfly Weed out here and Asclepias as plain old Milkweed. My bad for not looking at her photo or paying attention in general.

I remember the A. tuberosa from Tennessee. I liked them, but they didn't like to be dug up and moved. Here we have A. curassavica which can be weedy too, but the monarch cats love it.

Yes, I leave them alone for that reason. The Monarch caterpillars do love them so!

Asclepias is not an invasive plant. Leave them be... great butterfly habitat.

I just posted the following statement on gardenweb and I am going to post it here also.

I think when we confuse or misuse the term invasive when referring to aggressive plants, we trivialize the damage caused by true invasives.

Butterfly Bush is invasive. (Buddleia davidii)

Butterfly weed - asclepias tuberosa is rarely aggressive and not invasive. And its quite picky in site selection.

Other Asclepias species - swamp milkweed or common milkweed may be aggressive and spread readily in the right conditions but they are not invasive.

You are correct.

Here's a link to a Maryland Native Plant Society
http://www.mdflora.org/
I didn't see your plant on their admittedly short list of invasive shrubs; here are some native plants they recommend
RECOMMENDED NATIVE SHRUBS
Spicebush (Lindera benzoin), which is covered with tiny yellow flowers in March, is our most common native shrub. It needs rich soil, as does strawberry bush (Euonymus americanus). Maple-leaf viburnum (Viburnum acerifolium) is suited to dry shade and thinner soil, while the arrowwoods (Viburnum dentatum, V. recognitum, V. nudum) grow in moist soil. Wild hydrangea (Hydrangea arborescens), parent of some cultivated varieties, is a somewhat vining shrub. Highbush blueberry (Vaccinium corymbosum, the parent of cultivated blueberries) and lowbush blueberry (V. vacillans) need very acidic soil. They tolerate shade but fruit best in sun. Both turn red in fall.

I think once the fact that the Tallow Tree has human health implications gets out....they'll FINALLY stop selling them.

Dodecatheon, what does the tallow tree do to humans? Those things are everywhere down here!

When I lived in Owings Mills Maryland we had three large (7 ft tall) Butterfly bushes in our townhouse backyard. Many of our winters there were mild so they didn't die back much. Because of that we cut back the plants severely, but they always grew back.

When we moved to upper Westminster in March 2005 we purchased new Buttlerfly bushes; one for the front just off our front porch and one in the back off the patio. We wanted to be able to see them and watch all the activity.

And boy, did we have activity! Monarchs, Yellow Tigers, Mourning Cloaks, Baltimore Skippers, Hummingbird Moths and of course Humming birds. We were delighted that one simple bush gave us so much enjoyment.

2005 ended and Spring 2006 came fast. The bush in front began to grow early; the one in back late. Summer came and so did the blossoms and the butterflys. Many more than in Owings Mills. Out here in Westminster its a much more agricultural community. Again we had Monarchs, but so many I lost count. They would come in from every direction swirling on the wind. Sometimes a pair would meet and dance around each other for a minute or so before landing on a raceme. Big Yellow Tigers, the largest I've seen, were well fed from visiting the Butterfly bush many times each day. It was wonderful watching them each day from my chair on the porch or my chair inside my den.

Then one day, in my front garden bed, on the other side of the porch, I noticed three small butterfly bushes growing. I let them grow. In August the largest bloomed with white flowers. I thought that odd since my front butterfly bush was purple flowering and the one in back was sort of a pinkish white. I still let them grow because I want to transplant them along my fence.

Anyway, I really like this plant because it does feed many different types of butterflys and of course ruby throated hummingbirds. As for being invasive in the wild, I've never seen one growing on the roadsides here in north central maryland, never!

Well, they have totally made themselves at home here in the forests, as have mimosa and foxglove (and ivy).

I dug mine up and burned them this spring, and am saddened (and maddened) by all that are sold by the nurseries and so called "environmentally minded," politically correct, organic (etc. etc) growers.

Ironically, a root I put in a pot thinking it was pineapple sage turned out to be one of the buddleias I burned. Bloomed on its 6" stem. I pulled it.

People more knowledgeable than I could probably talk about whether or not they are good for the butterflies, etc. There are other plants that draw both the butterflies and hummingbirds very nicely, without spreading to the woods. They are good for easy human entertainment.

The timing for this thread to be bumped is good - when I saw that buddleia blooming in my wine barrel, I thought to go looking for this thread, but hadn't yet.





This message was edited Aug 28, 2006 9:07 AM

Most would agree and there are many websites that list plants that are considerably more eco-friendly than a known exotic invasive species.
Thank you so much for sharing this kenrnoto. Just because we don't see consequences of irresponsible acts doesn't mean they don't occur. Many gardeners who grow species that are known exotic invasives often aren't afforded the luxury of seeing the consequences of their own acts first hand. It would appear you were just provided with seeing first hand how an exotic invasive species is able to get a foothold in the environment. I suspect the three "volunteers" you found growing on your property are nothing more than offspring of plants growing in your vicinity. Just as those plants volunteered on your property, there are others volunteering in natural areas which means the volunteers are displacing native flora. I can't thank you enough for pointing out the color of your blooming volunteer Butterfly Bush.

I found several volunteers from the plant I had here. I did a little bit more research and determined there was no way I could keep up with dead heading it so I dug it up and tossed it on the burn pile. I loved the plant and I loved the butterflies and such that visited it but I've been planting many well behaved plants that will fill the niche once occupied by that plant. Next year I will add even more species that will attract butterflies and hummers and moths. I love the hub of activity.

As I read this thread I was reminded of the hummingbird yesterday that was feeding on the hosta flowers in my back yard.

As a native enthusiast, I would not have planted hostas, but they were there when I moved in, so I left them. I think the hummingbirds were glad I left them, because the cardinal flower that they had been feeding on is just about done blooming. The Royal Catchfly that would normally be blooming right now was decimated by rabbits... so the hostas have helped fill a gap...

You know, I saw a hummingbird zipping around here when I was watering plants on Saturday. He was hanging out around the native Hydrangea I've been planting. I have lots of Asian Hosta here and I never quite pay attention to what visits them because they're all over on the north side of the house. I'll have to try to take notice of what hangs around those plants.

I was a bit surprised to see the hummingbird feeding on the hosta flowers, but he kept going back there - so I assume he was getting some satisfaction there.

What type of hydrangea have you planted? I just put some in this year too. I put in three annabelles and one oak leaf.

The annabelle's bloomed nicely but they needed a lot of water - I hope that is just because they were new transplants. I won't be too happy with them, if I have to keep watering them in perpetuity.

The oak leaf seemed to adapt well to the new conditions. No blooms yet but it has some new growth and didn't seem to need as much water input as the annabelles.

joepyeweed:

You probably don't have much issue with pesky hosta seedlings crowding out your local flora, either. And, I'd imagine that you are always looking for additional local flora to supplement what you currently have that contributes to other parts of other local fauna's life cycles.

That's the main beef I have with the concept of butterfly bush (and other plants like it); they don't contribute anything else, AND, the North American butterflies and hummingbirds managed to exist for eons without them. Plant what they are used to, and see how much more benefit is provided to the whole system. It's not that difficult.

No V V, Hosta doesn't do much here. I do have to divide it every few years but they burn nicely. No seedlings escaping cultivation from parent Hosta plants.

Hey Joe, I planted the same native Hydrangeas that you planted as well as a few exotic species. Bad news, I use my Annabelles to judge when all of my plants need water. Two of my Annabelles have been in the ground for 3 years now and they are the first to wilt. I suspect you will be watering them for many years to come. Now, the Annabelles that I have planted down toward the wetlands are doing fine without supplemental waterings. Have you any downspouts you could relocate yours to?

Do you have any Clethra alnifolia? I just bought two more of those on the way home and I tossed in two more Fothergilla major. Those are veritable butterfly magnets.

I don't have the alnifolia or any fothergilla.

I have plenty of butterfiles and hummingbirds that already hang out in my yard - so I have been pleased with what I do have growing. I am anticipating stuff to fill in and mature.

Most of my downspouts are in spots that are not conducive to plantings. (access to the back yard is an issue)... I have planted a rain garden at one downspout - perhaps the rain garden would have been a better choice for the annabelles. I do have two cephalanthus occidentalis at the edge of my rain garden. One is thriving, one is struggling.

I have been thinking about adding a cornus alternifolia, an amelanchier and a few rosa setigera to the landscape. I have the Rockford Wild One's Tree Sale form all filled out but I haven't sent it in yet.

Though I am hesitant to add any more trees. I am really confilicted about the next steps to take with my landscape right now. I want to add some more stuff, but I think I need to do more prep work... and I have been frustrated with some of the shade stuff that I put in - its not filling in as I would have hoped.

The hostas are holding their own against some boneset and tick trefoil. But they are not spreading.

I struggle with the same issues which is why I stick garden.

I am stick gardening also :-)

When we bought this house two years ago - the front yard had nothing except 7 very large oak trees and one hickory tree. The trees are big - and the rest of the yard was nothing but patchy grass. I figured it was a blank canvas that I could work in. I've planted alot of woodland type stuff in the shady areas - but its not doing as well as I had hoped. I've used leaf mulch - and I think the woodland stuff - needs a few more years of leaf mulch to restore the soil back to something that is "woodland" type soil. (Rather than the compacted - chem laden lawn soil - that had been beaten into submission.)

Stick gardening? Please explain.

Oh, stick gardening is really a rather simple process.

You see a plant you like.

You buy the plant without having the first clue of where you will plant it.

You get home and stick it anywhere you think it might have a chance of surviving.

This, my friend, is called stick gardening ;)

Ohhhh....I thought it was haphazard gardening. I'm definately a stick gardener, then. lol

Great thread : ) And very infomative. It's ironic to me that my friends call me the 'plant doctor'...yet there are ALWAYS sooo many new things to learn : )

Well I had one left that was so beautiful, trimmed up to a small tree shape, full of Monarchs this fall. It was slated to go next spring, or at least be potted and kept small so the deadheading wasn't such a chore. But the Monarchs and Hummers were starting to make me waver. A heavy rain storm came through, it was too top heavy and that was that. Now I can be ruthless and pull it out.

I'm also conflicted on where to go next in this yard. I also do a lot of stick gardening!! Is there a name for the followup to that, you know, when the plant doesn't do well and you take it ona series of jaunts, trying other spots on your property, to see if you can get it to thrive? although, by the time I decide to move one, it's already weakened, decreasing it's chances of ever recovering.......
my BBes are getting old and have not reseeded for me so that will open up two spaces for Sticks.....

Stick gardening II?

Have you any idea what you are going to plant after you waste your Butterfly Bushes?

Everyone has always teased me for what I'm about to say but I generally buy plants in threes or sixes or nines. I do this so I can test out different areas of the property. It has been my experience that by the time a plant is in decline due to poor siting, it was already too late to even attempt to move it. No sense wasting energy relocating a goner as by then the plant was destined to end up in plant heaven no matter what I did.

Sally, you might want to start a new thread and post photos of your property if at all possible. Show specific areas that you are interested in planting and see what people come up with. I've gotten a lot of really great ideas from other DGers. The one that stands out in my mind was to add height. I've had combinations suggested that I would have never even dreamed of. Some of the strangest suggestions really worked for me.

Since this thread was bumped recently, a little update on my buddleia dilemma. I've pulled and burned two of the bushes now. One was simply replaced with more wildlife friendly perennials (maryland wild senna, phlox and boltonia) and the other I replaced just last weekend with a red buckeye which the hummingbirds and butterflies will love.

B. davidii is a nectar plant for butterflies, true, but there are many other excellent nectar plants and it has absolutely no value for butterfly larvae. A true butterfly garden provides habitat for butterflies in all stages.

And, it is spreading in Maryland. I've found seedlings on an abandoned lot right in my neighborhood and Iand see them in other areas, particularly dry gravelly waste sites, as well.

I can relate to much of the last few posts.

I always buy plants in multiples of three. I have a philosophy that if I just plant one plant in a spot and it dies, I am not sure why it died. But if all six plants die in one spot, well then that is definitely not the right spot for that species.

And there is that mass planting theory, where a plant will have more visual impact if its in a clump rather just one lone plant...unfortunately I have had enough plants die where only one is left which then ruins my clump plan... and yes by the time I decide I want to move a plant, its usually too late... and I am too lazy... there goes another one.

there's the patient cheapskate method- buy only one, if it does well and multiplies, after some time you get your clumps. (shortly thereafter, you're begging for people to take your excess)

I am waiting for the days when I can give people my excess...

At my previous home, I had beautiful sandy loam soil and I could grow almost anything. And I was constantly giving away plants. We moved a couple years ago and in this home the soil is icky clay and I am slowly figuring out what will grow here and what won't....

Gardener's Moral to the story: never buy a home without doing a soil test first.

or a perc test ;)

gotta admit, this coastal plain soil here is nice!!! I can always stick a shovel in w/o breaking a foot.
BTW, ripped out a Butt. Bush last week. Thinking I'll try Nicotiana Only the Lonely in its place next year.

Oh yes, a perc test would have been good. I have dug holes to plant trees and filled them with water to pre-moisten the hole before I put the tree in (1 gallon size). The hole sat full of water for two days. grrr...

I put in a service berry and a pagoda dog wood this year. We shall see...

I keep adding organic matter to help improve the soil, but there is only so much OM and only so much time.

I guess the bright side is that many of the tough praire plants that like clay are doing well.