Hardy/tender annuals, half hardy/hardy perennials WS when??

that sounds logical to me Susan

alyrics - I winter sowed dahlias in 2003. Two types - Figaro and a double pompom. Sown on 2/22, germinated on 3/15, first blooms by 7/12. They formed pretty decent-sized tubers by the end of the season too. I ended up giving a friend the tubers, and the following summer she had a great show of them. Made me jealous.

I'm still pondering whether to sow seeds for dahlia 'stargazer'; if I decide to do them, they'll be sown this week.

And this time I'll keep them.


PV

soul - don't need to worry about Hollyhocks in GA - I've grown Nigra several times from seed - piece of cake - they sprout very readily. But I sowed them directly where I wanted them - not WS

The crop schedule below would seem to indicate that a commercial grower is allowing 9 to 11 weeks from sowing to selling a finished plant. So its not really too late to start now if you have a place you can keep them at such high temps. I sure don't - we don't keep our house that warm.

From http://www.garden.org/subchannels/flowers/annuals?q=show&id=214
This has good tips for a home gardener for impatiens seeds


From the Ball Seed website: instructions for commercial growers of impatiens:
http://www.ballseed.com/Media/Culture/PAS/SingleImpatiens.pdf#search='germination%20time%20for%20impatiens'

Impatiens Crop Schedule & Uses In Weeks
Sow to Transplant 4-5 weeks
Transplant to Flower (4-in./10-cm pot or 36 tray) 5-6 weeks

This is a long .pdf file but it says that impatiens need soil temps of 72-75 degrees to germinate.

From Auburn University http://www.ag.auburn.edu/hort/landscape/Simpat.htm

Germination
Sow seed in plug flats containing a well-drained medium with or without covering the seed. The 406 plug flat is small enough for economic production while providing enough room for growth until transplanting. Medium pH should be 5.5 to 5.8, below 5.0 inhibits germination by as much as 60%. In plugs, seed should start at 72-75F (stage 1) for 3-5 days, then 68-72F for stage 2. Germination temperatures above 75F can cause a thermodormancy. Water temperatures for irrigation and mist should be 70-78F. Light is necessary for germination of some cultivars. Natural light in mist beds in the greenhouse or artificial light from fluorescent lamps, minimum 50 foot-candles for 24 hours per day in germination rooms.

Impatiens seed require close to 100% relative humidity for germination. Reduce this humidity level after imbibition to permit gas-exchange and encourage the radicle to penetrate the medium. Some growers apply a light vermiculite seed covering (#3 vermiculite) to retain moisture, but not enough to block light. A one-time application of calcium-based fertilizers at 25-50 ppm N have been found to enhance germination when applied during imbibition. In early plug stage 2, weekly applications of 75 ppm N from KNO3 which can be raised to 100 ppm N from a complete fertilizer in the last few weeks in stage 3.

If seed must be kept from one season to the next, store in a cool, dry environment away form insects and rodents. As a rule of thumb, store seed where the sum of the temperature and relative humidity in percent does not exceed 100, e.g. at 55F, the humidity should not exceed 45%. Refrigerators dedicated for seed storage are often used.

Growing-On

Temperature: Night temperatures 62-65F, day temperatures 70-75F for high quality plants. Use 65F night temperatures for a week or so after transplanting, then drop to 62F if desired. Lower temperatures delay growth and flowering. Temperatures above 80F cause stretching and leaf damage, especially at high light intensities.

Photoperiod: None has been demonstrated.

PVick - what did they do after they germinated in March? Do you have freezing temps and did you leave them outside in containers? It could be well below freezing for days here in March - we have big swings in temp sometimes. I'm wondering if I WS them around late March and they germinate in April - that maybe I won't have to babysit the seedlings so much for temperature. Ponder ponder ponder. I hate to make a bunch of work that ends up for nothing. On the other hand, if you went from germination on 3-15 to flowering in 4 months that means they flowered as quickly as a planted tuber would for me. Of course you are significantly more warm in Brooklyn and probably don't have the swings in temp.

I am on the edge of the snowbelt - we get lake effect snow off of Lake Erie. The Zone 6 milder climates are right up on the lake. We are zone 5. A friend of mine has a lake front home that has amazing plants I couldn't hope to grow only 16 miles farther away from the lake.

Interesting about the Lake Effect and only 16 miles difference!

About the H2O2 soaking solution-- I am just experimenting and researching it this season. Don't have anything to report from experience. If anyone does use it, I hope they keep notes to report.

From my Hollyhock experience (and I am a compleat klutz at seed starting) they are pretty hard to mess up. Some kinds may only bloom the second growing season, though...

alyrics - after they germinated in March, they stayed right in their containers outside, under (plastic) covers. As they grew, and as the temp warmed, I increased the slits in their covers. By the time there were more slits than plastic, they were ready to be planted out. I'm rather lazy about planting out, so I doubt if they made it into their permanent pots before late May or early June.

Glad you mentioned your zone, wasn't sure what it was before. Here in Brooklyn, we don't normally get very severe temperature swings in the spring, but strange things do happen. And my "garden" is an 11th floor aerie, so temps - and wind - can get very hitchy. But, with anything that's been WSed, I leave them outside, no matter how cold, germinated or not. As long as they are covered.

I think that if you were to sow them now, they would be fine. But waiting until late March wouldn't hurt, either. There are folks who, if a freeze is expected, will cover their flats at night with sheets or some such. And there have been WSers from Alaska who have reported success with seedlings through some extreme temperatures.

To a great degree, the WS process is a matter of personal preference, and knowing your own climate. If you have enough seeds, why not try some now, and some later? It would make for a good experiment with your temps.

But whatever you do, don't bring them inside. Once inside for a few days to beat a freeze, they will most likely have to stay inside until time to plant out in spring. And then you'd have to go through that whole "hardening off" process ...

PV

Yes I see your point about not bringing them indoors. I'm sorry as all get out right now because I have a flat of hellebores in the house that I would have LOVED to have left outside. Pain in the behind. I had a bunch in 6 inch pots that I put out by my compost bins and they have been happy all winter - snow covered or not. But these little ones in 2" pots I kept in like a dummy. I don't know if the roots are alive but I've lost leaves on some. I just transplanted all of them and am taking them to the spare room to see if they will do better up there - cool and bright.

Just talked to my friend who WS'd Dahlia Stargazer last year up here. She sowed on March 15th and had germination in about 3 weeks - sounds like same as you. She had them in deep disposable foil bread pans with a plastic bag pulled over and sealed. They were set on the shelf of a portable plastic covered greenhouse till they were planted out in Mid-May. I think I can duplicate that more or less so I've now put this on my calendar for a couple of weeks out.

alyrics: Put your Hellebores back outside at the first opportunity! They love the cold & defy it by blooming at the very end of Winter! However, the best time to sow Hellebores is in early Summer when the seed is the freshest. Same goes for Cyclamen seed.

Shirley1 - now you'll make me crazy. Surely they aren't hardened off enough to be set outside right now. Its in the teens at night and only the 30's during the day. Maybe in a few weeks the weather will break for spring. I just thought since they had been in all winter there was no choice - but do you know something else?

alrycs (& arctic fire), I can't answer your lst question but have a hint forWSing. Someone told me using aluminum tape instead of duct tape avoids the nasty spring mess. Look in a hardware store near the duct tape. This comes with a backing.
Dave

I have to check that out Dave - I did hear the suggestion for aluminum tape for making labels.

OK, let's back up a little-- I'm trying to catch up!

About the helleborus-- I thought they grew from bulbs planted in the fall. Do they not?

If you can grow them from seed, can they be wintersowed (or not?).

Who has positive results to report on WSing them?

I would like to try them if they can be WSed, but I can't do them otherwise.

If you can grow them from seed, do you 'collect' the seed or just buy the Burpees mixed Helleborus packet at Home Depot or is there a 'specialist' stockist?

Very interesting discussion. I would like to have some Helleborus with my new Witch Hazels next spring....

Thanks everybody.

T,
From my understanding the seeds have to be very fresh and need a warm-cold period to germinate. I also have been told that they do not germinate til the 2nd year if done correctly. Hopefully someone else can offer some more input!
Michelle

Very interesting and timely that we are talking about fresh Hellebore seed and gemini_sage just posted this thread in shady gardens forum about a great new helleborus seed source called 'Winter Woods'

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/578452/

And here is the link for Winter Woods Hardy Shady Perennials new website featuring fresh Hellebore seed:

http://www.winterwoods.net/

Apparently the owner of the Winter Woods site is a Dave's Garden member, too, so I hope she will share some good growing information with us.

Way off topic -
tabasco - hi - Hellebores are grown from seed, tissue culture or division - they are a fleshy rooted perennial. The H. orientalis blooms typically in Feb- March but with this years warm Dec and Jan, mine budded out in January and all are in full bloom right now in the snow. I have a lot of dark purple ones but they come in colors from pale yellow/green to pale pink up through brighter pinks and dusky purples. The flowers are cold hardy. I absolutely love my hellebores - the foliage is a shiny dark green, evergreen and interesting - something to look at in the snow. The H. niger or Christmas rose blooms in my yard starting in November around Thanksgiving and goes thru January. It has white to greenish white flowers that fade to pale pink - more or less like a hydrangea does. I like niger because of the blue foliage - very unusual. Also by the time I'm basting the turkey its nice to have 1 thing to look in the yard. Nov is pretty brown around here.

I haven't grown hellebore from seed intentionally but if you do not disturb the ground around the mother plant they will readily re-seed themselves. I have heard it can take 2 winter cycles to get germination but I am not the person to ask. I have 1 homegrown seedling that last year I transplanted in the fall to give it room and it is just fine as of yesterday. The reason hellebores are so expensive is because it can take up to 7 years for them to bloom. I got my blooming plants as divisions from someone, but last fall our garden club bought a flat from Sunshine Gardens, who has been working on developing a line of double hellebores in various colors. Barry probably would give the same deal - we paid $3 each for the seedlings. I was challenged by another on-line gardener to keep in touch to see whose bloomed first - hers from seed or mine bought as 1 or 2 yr old seedlings.

I am going to use them as a low evergreen hedge along my front walkway. They are about 15" high and completely not bothered by animals. The only problem I've ever had is in a continually damp bed where I removed diseased azaleas from previous owner. I've got a fungal or viral presence in that bed I'm still trying to control. The hellebores I planted there were huge and loaded with flowers but the new growth leaves would blacken at the edges. In the spring I'm going to try corn meal dust as an antifungal.

There was an article in Horticulture mag last fall on dividing hellebores. The author said she had clumps that are 4 feet across. That must be a sight.

alyrics-- thank you for your 'sum up' of your hellebore experience. Very interesting to read about how you got started with them. If purchasing plants is not in the cards, it definitely sounds like to successfully grow from seed requires the freshest obtainable since they do seem to reseed naturally. And may lend themselves to 'wintersowing' in that way.

Last night I took some time to read through the huge helleborus thread in the Perennials Forum http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/549141/ with all the good tips too on how to get started with them. Gina, the owner of Winter Woods made quite a few excellent comments.

After analyzing all the info, I wonder if presoaking the fresh seeds in an H2O2/water solution and then 'wintersowing' (in summer when the seeds are fresh from the plant) might speed the germination and give faster results.

It sounds like Barry Glick's goals for popularizing the plant are coming to fruition. It is fun to have something bloom here in February. No doubt about it!

Thanks for all your comments. Please don't forget to post some pics! t.

Hey alyric - I've heard the AV people mentioning using lysol to control fungus in their plants - would that work for you?

What are the AV people?
I suppose Lysol could work - but again - the chemical has to penetrate the soil in enough quantity to kill the fungus and I think Lysol would kill all biologicals along the way. I read a bunch of papers on the anti-fungal properties of corn meal and I'm going to give it a try. Maybe its nonsense I don't know but some organic gardeners do use it.

Research what you use, alyrics. Organic gardeners use something, I think it's corn gluten meal, as a pre-emergent weed killer. It inhibits germination of seeds in some manner. I don't remember exactly but I think it's corn gluten meal.

Karen

AV = African Violets

Here are a couple articles on the properties of corn gluten meal - inhibits germination, and regular corn meal which has some anti-fungal properties. Like I said - its just worth a try rather than using a lot of chemicals. I may have to resort to them but thought I'd try this first.

http://www.bostongardens.com/bostongardens/detail.cfm?id=2166&catid=14&webid=1

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/view_question.php?id=18

I just haven't been able to find a supplier for corn gluten meal. Am i just supposd to use the corn meal from the suppermarket?

Susan

Susan,

For fungus you just use plain old corn meal from the grocery I think. I used it last year with no apparent results. It's corn gluten meal, I think, that inhibits seed germination, so if you plan to sow any seeds in that bed you do NOT want corn gluten meal. I have next to no knowledge of this stuff. You might want to check in with the folks on the organic gardening forum. I'm sure they could help you.

Karen

Thanks!

Susan

I've had the same problem - I just googled on 'corn gluten' and came up with this
http://www.merrifieldgardencenter.com/products.php?pid=8677&openparent=2202

love the name of it!

On the corn meal fungicide - the Dirt Doctor website says if you can't find corn meal flour or dust you can use corn meal from the grocery. So I did! I'll let y'all know

Gardens Alive! carries corn gluten meal too.
http://www.gardensalive.com/Default.asp?bhcd2=1141331030

I bet watering with the H2O2 and water solution might kill off Fungus.

I am going to the hardware store today for more potting soil and seeds.

Isn't it about time to start with the garden veggies and hyacinth vine seeds and such? Or too early?

I am going to use one gallon baggies for the tender annuals since I don't think they will have as much 'weather' to withstand-- but I may be wrong about that...

FYI Here is a list of First and Last Frost Dates for different areas

http://www.victoryseeds.com/frost/

Can someone tell me how these would apply to Wintersown seedlings?

It seems like it would be wise to delay putting WS seedings into the garden until after the Last Frost date and the soil has warmed up. Right? Wrong?

Thank you.

Keep in my that this is my first year WSing.

Despite what I see in print about last frost date, I never plant out tender annuals like impatiens until mid May. My target is always Mother's Day. But remember I'm talking about nursery bought plants, too. I have next to no experience with seed starting. Last year I direct sowed some nicotiana and zinnia seeds around mid April. They germinated quickly since the weather was warm then. We got a late winter storm with freezing rain, sleet and snow when they were tiny seedlings; I wasn't home to even try to cover them. I thought they were history but I only lost a few. The rest grew quickly and were beautiful. Flowers born outside are just healthier and hardier.

From what I've read on Trudi's site and GW, experienced WSers seem to plant out the cold loving plants, like poppies, very early, when they get their 2nd set of true leaves. Some of mine are getting their first set so I don't imagine that time will be too long now. I think they also do that with hardy perennials and hardy annuals. We need some more experienced WSers to chime in here.

Karen

tabasco: Why do you want to delay planting ws seedlings in your garden? As soon as you are able to get outside and work your soil, put those babies in the ground! The sooner they are in the ground...the sooner they will bloom!!! :~)

tabasco - I'm ignorant on this - but would H2O2 kill plants in sufficient concentration? I thought it was a sterilant. I guess it might work sprayed on the soil under a mature plant but what about seedlings?

What people said to me about WS plants was that the only plants they lost were those in non-sterilized containers. So I soaked my containers in dilute bleach for a couple hours after washing them with soapy water or running thru dishwasher. Also they said that the seedlings are already hardened off and can take more cold than greenhouse raised plants. Beyond that - I am a newbie at this also and will be taking my chances with the rest of you.

I'm gonna agree with Shirley - My ground is frozen, but as soon as it thaws - those poppies are goin' in!

alyrics-- I always dilute my 3% Hydrogen Peroxide/Water Solution to 1 part to 20 parts. Yes, I believe any solution too strong will kill plants.

The H2O2 Water solution is used for different reasons--

Oneis to sterilize and disinfect (as for cleaning first aid for wounds and scratches, etc.) and for cleaning seed starting containers/soil.

Another use for it is to "Oxygenate" the roots of plants (and seedlings) that are weak or sickly or being transplanted... the solution will give them extra oxygen in the roots and boost them.

A third use for H2O2/water solution is to soak seeds in it before planting--this soak can 'oxygenate' the seeds and cause them to 'bust open' earlier. It can also help dissolve a stubborn seed coat (much the same way soaking in Orange juice or a vinegar solution would).

Many people spray the solution on the seedlings/plants to 'oxygenate' through foliar feeding. Similar to spraying a light fertilizer onto seedlings.

I am experimenting with the H2O2 solution this season, so I don't have anything definitive to report, but others have used it very successfully, especially for daylilies, orchids, farmers crops, etc., and I think it is becoming more popular with flower gardeners as the research info spreads.

Shirley, I don't know why I would wait to plant WS seedlings, except that I have read many seedlings will not prosper in garden soil cooler than 56 degrees. This would not apply to poppies and lettuce and early season crops that love cooler growing weather, though...

I don't have much true experience with gardening, but I have read a lot on the various Univ. Extension websites. Probably enough to get thoroughly confused! A case of TMI for sure!

t.

Tabasco - I think you're great - a researching and reading woman after my own heart!
Keep it up and let us know what you discover. Thanks for the interesting info on H2O2 - I had no idea. I am just getting into trying this wintersowing this year. I have a bag of seeds that is becoming kind of silly it is getting so big. I just emailed my garden club to see who wants to share seeds. Because I don't have so much sun, I am doing veggie containers this year. Next week I am going to sow beets directly into 12" pots - 3 to a pot is what the OSU extension bulletin says, and over-sow them with a mesclun lettuce mix. A veggie gardener told me I should get 4 cuttings of lettuce and can either pull the plants out or let them die as the beets take over. I saved the gigantic and very tough clear plastic wrap off one of those big packages (bale practically) of paper towels and am going to use that to tent the pots. I also found a dwarf bush cucumber specifically developed for containers called 'Picklebush' from Burpee that makes 4" cukes and a dwarf Romaine called Little Gem.

alyrics--

Good luck with your veggie containers.

Could be lots of fun if you can remember to water! (I used Miracle gro Potting Soil with moisture control to help with that or you can make your own if you are industrious)

I sowed some mesclun in containers under lights a few weeks ago and we just had a lovely salad Sunday evening (impressive to my visiting sister). It was called 'cut and come again' salad mix--I'm supposed to be able to get another crop from it, but it doesn't look much like it will cooperate!

I also saw mesclun recommended for a companion planting for bulbs like tulips or daffodils. Seems like it might be a cute addition to a pot of dark red tulips.

Good luck with the containers. We will want to see pics, of course! (-:

tabasco, I can't remember what thread it was, but you'd asked to see a pic of my shabby/chic cold frame. It's up and going strong now, and other than losing a few babies one of those times it got in the 70s that day and into the 20s that night (so I'm not sure which did it), it's working well. The corners where cool air could blow in are sealed a bit with cardboard, so it's certainly more shabby than chic, lol. Thank God I don't have neighbors!

Some babies inside:

Wow! Big babies! I think they're more like teenagers

Karen

I wanted to plant out my poppies - but I lost feeling in my fingers!!! Too cold!

Gem--very cool cold frame (so to speak...(-: ) Martha Stewart would probably love to feature that on her show. And your plant babies look great and seem to like it too.

This is a pale pink Helleborus orientalis. I'll post a purple one next.