Hardy/tender annuals, half hardy/hardy perennials WS when??

Hi, everybody--

So I've been busily wintersowing my little heart away--mostly perennials and a few other flowers I know are 'reseeders' (and I don't know that many)...and I'm about done with those (I think)...

Then questions about wintersowing hibiscus, sunflowers, and poached egg plant came up on other threads, and I'm wondering when is it time to start wintersowing annuals in temperate zones (or should we just sow them right into the ground)...?

Do we have any experienced WSers who can advise on these annuals/tender perennials?

I still want to plant Hibiscus, 4 o'clocks, morning glories, sunflowers various, euphorbia, digitalis, campanulas, aquilegias (nora barlow), aconitum, and some other tropicals (that I know will wait 'til later)...

BTW thought I would share this good informative thread from GW that covered some of my questions/answers too.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/wtrsow/msg011136385282.html

T,
In regards to the tender annuals many do not start sowing them until March. However I have done Cosmos, Zinnia, Godetia etc in January and they were fine. As far as your campanulas, Aquilegia, digitalis all of these should be ws now. I know aquilegia needs a period of cold then warm before germinating and even then they are one of the last to sprout for me. So I guess my best advice is if you are worried about the the real tender annuals then wait til March but everything else I would ws now and trust mother nature. Have a made it as clear as mud?

Hope this helps
Michelle

Thanks, michelle for your good rundown. That really helps a lot.

We less experienced in WS can be confused or unsure on this aspect of it so I really appreciate your postings. Anything else you can add I would appreciate.

I will get busy tomorrow on the campanulas, aquilegias, etc.

The seeds that I wonder about are the ones that say 'plant after last frost'...I suppose they have some protection in their plastic houses so they can survive a frost if they sprout, no? If we plant them in March?

Thanks again. t.

Hi Tabasco,

I'm in zone 5 (maine) and I scratched the surface of the soil in mid April here last year and direct sowed my poppies & cleomes and they did just wonderful. I have read that poppies don't care to be transplanted so I'm going to do the same thing with my poppies this year.

I have just wintersowed my Columbines, Hardy Hibiscus and others. I was going to wait until March or April for my hardy annuals.

The real tender ones like Passion Vine etc. I plan to sow directly outside at the beginning of May (still kinda cold here but beyond freezing). My morning glories I always just direct sow where I want them to grow usually around the end of April or beginning of May. Seems to work good for them.

Does this all sound right to you WS experts?.....leap of faith here *lol*

This is my first year wintersowing and I started with all my perennials first.

I can't wait to see how this all turns out. I was a little nervous and only planted 1/2 of each type of seed I had......just in case.

I wish you luck also!

Kim

Well the best piece of advice that I can offer is to ignore the seed pkg directions. Most of the instructions is in regards to direct planting of seeds outside in the soil. I know that it is hard but trust me the instructions do not apply to wintersowing. Most seeds can be wintersowed anytime after winter solistice. I know that there are some of us wsowers that wait until early March to do real tender annuals however other wsowers do whatever seeds tickle their fancy at the time and they work fine. What I have done is both. I have ws tenders in January last year and in March and I did not see any advantage to waiting til later. This year I am way behind so it looks like most of my wsowing will be done this week and early March.

Kim,
I ws lots of varieties of poppies last year in milk jugs and they transplanted wonderfully. I know that it has been said over and over that they hate being transplanted but it worked great for me. In fact some were quite large when I transplanted them and I am sure every seed must have germinated because they were knitted so tightly together. Lets just say that I was not gentle when pulling them apart and planting well the show was unbelievable. I am doing 8 more varieties this year via ws.
Good Luck!
Michelle

Well, that is SO GOOD to know Michelle. Last year I direct sowed but got a little worried that the seed wouldn't be ripe at the end of the season so I do think I will try WS 1/2 of each type of seed that I have. These are the ones I am planting:

Red Peony Poppy
Pink Peony Poppy
White Cloud White Double Poppy
Peach Peony Poppy
Yellow Peony Poppy
Frosteld Salmon Peony Poppy
Flemish Antique Peony Poppy
Black Peony Poppy
Lavender Peony Poppy

Do you see a trend here *lol*. I love the Peony ones.

Here are pictures of the 2 that I had last year and obviously received alot in trades and purchased a couple too that I "had to have".

http://www.jakesplace.biz/kimskreations/TEMPLATES/KimsKountryTemplate.htm

I LOVE the idea of this winter sowing and have about 22 (I know it's not many compared to others) winter sowed already.

Kim

Good information here. Keep it coming Michelle and Kim! It's getting clearer in my brain what I need to do with all of these hundreds of seed packets I've acquired!

For one thing, I need to keep better notes and records!

Can't wait to get going tomorrow on my acquilegias and campanulas. Worked on my digitalis (5 kinds) today and a variety of experimentals--Texas Bluebells and aconitum and texas salvias-- experimental in that I don't know if the plants will like our Ohio humidity this summer...that is.

Kim-- I enjoyed your website and your pictures.

Thanks again. t.

Kim
Loved all of your pics! Aren't Poppies great! I love the peony types as well. Last winter I had about 25 containers of just poppy varieties and probably have just as many if not more this year.
Tab
Glad that I helped solve some of your ws questions. One thing I do try to do is document all of my ws. I list the seed, when planted, when sprouted, when transplanted and growth(bloom time and how long) It really has helped me the following years. Last winter I did 12 different varieties of Columbine. They have all been transplanted to my nursery beds and I cannot wait to see them bloom this spring! I haven't tried Digitalis yet but maybe next winter.
Michelle

Thank you both for your compliments. Last year was the first year my garden "took shape". I have been blessed with very sandy/acidic soil and finally got the courage up last year to ask my neighbor if it would be OK if I used some of her horse manure. She said I could have all I wanted. Almost daily I went over for a wheelbarrel or 2 of it and spread a thin layer everywhere. The plants seemed to thrive. I will do it again this year and hopefully will have even better results. I have never been able to grow anything from seed so when the poppies and cleomes grew it astonished me. Then I read about WS and decided that this was the answer for my seed growing brown thumb. I have such high hopes. Even if I only get 1 plant from each type of seed I have sown so far I will be tickled.

I LOVED the poppies. When they first started coming up I had forgotten what I had planted and I wondered what the lettuce I had coming up in the Iris was. It was a pretty aqua like color so I let it be and didn't weed it. When it got big enough to identify I remembered I had thrown a packet of poppy seeds on the ground. I hate to tell you what I thought the Cleome was *lol*. If you have ever seen the leaves on Cleome's you know what I mean. I got so nervous about what might be out in my garden that I had to take pictures and ask people on GW (I wasn't a member here yet) to identify it for me *lol*.

I'm hoping to collect alot of seeds from mine this fall and trade for more colors and varieties of poppies that I don't have but for some reason I seem partial to the peony type. They are just so full and beautiful!

I'm going to try growing all kinds of different morning glories this year too for the first time. Not sure how that will turn out but it's worth a try.

I LOVE columbine also and have started many different varieties of that. There are so many annuals that I don't know a thing about but my seed box is bursting and I want to try them all *lol*.

Kim

This message was edited Feb 20, 2006 10:00 PM

Kim,
I am right there with you. Before ws I relied on nursery stock to create my gardens. (So expensive mainly because I wanted one of everything) WS has helped me try so many different types of plants and I can save my dollars for things that I really want from the nurseries. Also I am not in the position to set up an elaborate light system for starting seeds indoors. I have done alot of seed trading which has been a great way to get different types of seeds as well as different varieties. I don't know whether you have tried dianthus, rudbeckia or penstemons from seed but they sprout like crazy. I did 10 varieties of dianthus last winter and they all bloomed in their first year.

I tried alot of annuals last year. Bachlor buttons were great and so easy being one of the first containers to sprout. Also did Asters, KMOTGG, Nigella, Zinnia, Cosmos, Godetia, Clarkia, Hibiscus, Larkspur, Nicotania, annual phlox, annual candytuft, and petunias just to name a few. Heading into the city tomorrow so will be checking out the seed racks for a few other things. Also need to pick up duct tape and another sharpie. Will be spending the rest of the week and weekend sowing til my heart is content and then wondering where I will put all of these plants when they do sprout!lol
Michelle

I've read and reread this thread and am still confused. :-) Sorry...
I wsed sunflowers this past weekend. Should I bring them inside?
Thanks,
LoraB.

LoraB,
I am so sorry if we confused you. But just to reassure your sunflowers will be fine. Don't bring them inside. The original question was when to start tender annuals and what about the seed package information. For ws from what I have been told and what I do myself is to ignore the seed growing information on the back of the pkg. You can start to ws anytime after Dec 21st. Some people wait until early March to sow tender annuals while others sow them right along with their perennials. My advice is to sow some early (Jan or Feb) and some late (early March on) see what does better for you in your region.
Hope this clears things up
Michelle

Hi everyone - I tend to agree with most - Perennials/hardy annuals Jan-Feb, Annuals/veggie in March. This is my first year, and I am keeping exact records so that I can learn from any successes or failures.

Kim

I thoroughly enjoyed seeing your gorgeous flowers. Were they all wintersown?

Karen

I'm seeing a trend here.... :-)
I think I sowed my sunflowers here a bit too early in cells. I think the peat cells are too small. But call it an experiment and I'll see what happens. If nothing, I can always dump out the soil and old seeds and replant more later on.

How long does it normally take to see signs of life?

Lora

I think germination depends (almost) entirely upon weather: temp and precip. What I sow indoors with bottom heat will germinate at a fixed rate, but w/ winter sowing, who knows?

Lora,
Everyone sees sprouts at different times once the temps become more normal. Last year my annual Bachlor Buttons sprouted in Mid March. While Columbine did not sprout til late April. Both containers were sown on the same day. What I have found in the previous years is when the temps outside are more favorable you will start to see sprouts regularly. By mid April I was seeing new seeds sprout everyday. It is the coolest thing to look into your milk jugs and see the seeds sprouting. I am sure I was checking my containers about 50 times a day. Don't want to miss anything!
Michelle

I think I need to do more poppies! I only did pink ones. Not enough!

I can't wait for March to come so I can start doing my 'tropicals' and (hyacinth) bean seeds! Or maybe I won't wait!

I read on another site's (GW's) UK forum, that some of those British posters thought Americans got a little obsessed (over the top) with Wintersowing, and I can't say that I disagree!

Still, it's great fun during these long winters! (that they don't have in England, btw)

Questions - I got scared this morning to see that my daylilies had 2 long stems each and today most of them are frozen - so are my Rose of Sharon - the two little leaves on them are frozen. I'm so afraid that I lost them all. Also, can
dahlias, statice, geranium, asclepias, poach eggs, impatiens, petunias, pansies, lobelia, bunny tail grass, coleus, johnny jump up, well you get the ideas (LOL) can they be WS - Please please I need help too many seeds to start indoors and Spring is only 28 days away. I don't want to start anything indoors unless I have too -

Also, I have seen some WS containers of some members - most of them are not covered - I didn't know they can stay uncovered. Any help, please.
Rose

T,
I am sure that us Canadians and Americans do excessive ws but why not. It is cheaper and a whole lot of fun. Like you said it is a great way to pass the winter! I have gardening friends that do over 1000 containers via ws. This year I am trying to scale back. Shooting for the 100 range. I want to create more beds. Also my nursery bed is full from the last 3 years so I need to transplant those plants to their more permanent location this spring.

Rose,
First if you sowed more than one seed in your containers of Daylily and Rose of Sharon then I would not be too concerned. One of the objects of ws is the strong will survive. It does happen that some seeds will sprout prematurely and then we get mega cold temps so they may kick the bucket. The good thing is the other seeds should still sprout. So I would not panic just yet.
I will try and answer your second question about the seeds. Petunias, statice,Pansy, Johnny Jump ups, Asceplais, bunny tails and lobelia can all be wintersown. I have not tried Dahlias, coleus or impatiens. If you have lots of seeds of the last group then I would give it a whirl see what happens.
Hope this helps
Michelle

Here's what I've sown so far. http://lakehousecreations.com/Seed_Sown.htm I'll let you know about the impatiens as they are on that list. I plan on putting out some more this weekend.

I got the bug! I have been saving containers to try this and this morning before anyone else got up I got out all my supplies and sowed:
Centaurea cyanthus - Black Ball - annual Bachelor Button
Shasta Alaska
Delphinium Pacific Giant
Poppies - Oriental Red - thanks up there articfire - I decided to use 1/2 my seed to try WS
Dianthus barbatus - Sweet William
Nepeta cataris - the infamous catnip
Violas
Nasturtium -not sure but I'm prob too early

The best container I had was the domed plastic packaging that a whole rotisserie chicken comes in - just had to punch holes and it was good to go. My greatest concern is that we have such uncertain weather in early May and if the seedlings outgrow the height of their containers I am not sure what to do. I have garden drape cloth from a nursery and I suppose I could just carry them all into the garage - but all I need to do is miss one time and they could be toast - or cubes... Oh well - I only used part of each seed packet in case I had to try again.
After I watered the containers and covered them they steamed up immediately. We are supposed to have freezing weather the next 4-5 days so it will be interesting to see this test.
You should have seen me trying to write Johnny Jump Up backward and upside down so I could read it thru the plastic - it was pretty funny.
I have a ton more seeds but I thought I better wait another few weeks for Round 2.

Hi, alyrics--

yes, I share your concerns, but, all the WS veterans say to 'take the leap' into wintersowing and 'trust' mother nature, so that's what I'm doing. I think articfire's advice is right on point.

Once the sprouts start showing their true leaves and spring is in full swing, I'm going to put my wintersowing 'contraptions' into partial shade/sun, and cut more ventilation holes into the plastic, so that they get more of 'Mother Nature', yet, still some protection from the uneven weather patterns, and let them go (except for occasional extra waterings as needed)...

I did try to make sure that the soil was at least 4 to 6 inches deep to try to give the seedlings root growing room and moisture retention. I am more worried about that than 'head room' for the leaves (if that is a problem I will just cut more plastic away).

Articfire-- Your friends planting a thousand containers sounds pretty exciting! Do they sell and trade away their extra plants, or are their gardens that huge?! And you're 'restraining' yourself to only 100! I can't wait to see some pics from your new spring garden, too!

Rose-- I think the 'uncovered' container pictures you are seeing are from WSowers in really mild, even climates where they don't have to worry so much about heat blasts, downpours, or sudden 'Alberta clippers' and other vicissitudes of weather. Or else they are wintersowing pics from later in the season after the weather has warmed up and the seeds have sprouted nicely.

Wintersowing has been fun this year and hopefully we will see some fabulous pics from everybody in a few months!

Here's a pic of my progress so far. I have covered them with baggies and plastic from produce store. Hope it works!

Great T - I did notice a strawberry/blueberry container...how deep is the soil in that one? I love those container I thought they would be good seed starter for the tropical plants that have to be done indoors

Anita-- I guess the strawberry container might (not even) be 4 inches deep...

What tropical plants are you starting indoors? I thought we could start tropicals outdoors in mid March? Not so?

I wanted to do things like trumpet vines and some other south american native Hummingbird attractor vines using wintersowing outside...mmm...

T,
You are so right about the "leap of faith" The first year I was so full of doubt about this working for me. But I was so hopeful and I was not disappointed. Last year I did over the 250 mark in containers and it was lots of fun but lots of work come planting time. When it comes to my 1000 plus gardening friends, I'm not sure if they have enough space for all of their seedlings but they love to try every variety of seed known to man. They do use the hunk of seedling method and that seems to work well. I do know of other gardeners that ws and then take their seedlings repotted to plant swaps or the farmers market. Myself I have a few family members who have already requested some plants for this year. They love to garden but not into the whole seed starting frenzy.
It is so cold here today so it is perfect for wintersowing. I have my jugs and soil all ready to go. Hope to get about 40 containers done this evening.
Michelle

alyrics: Yeah! So proud of you that you have decided to take that "leap of faith" and join us ! You're off to a great start!! Don't stop now, keep sowing your seeds & putting your jugs outside. Mother Nature will take good care of them!!!

My biggest problem was containers drying out to fast once the warmer weather arrives. Keep watering your containers, if you don't receive adequate precipitation each week. Once my seeds have germinated and I get the first set of true leaves, I'm moving my jugs to a shadier part of my deck to protect them & making my ventilation holes bigger. Definitely by early May, you should be planting those "hunks of seedlings" in your garden! As soon as you can work your soil, get out their and start digging!

Tabasco: Your updated Wintersown containers look great! However, my only concern is with your berry basket. It's got great drainage holes, plus it should be deep enough, but it may dry out very quickly! So, keep a close eye of it!! I would add a couple of polymer crystals to that container to be on the safe side. Personally, I'm starting my tender tropicals in April. I'm working on my HHA, Biannuals, & Annuals in March. Oops, can't forget to sow, sow, sow my veggies (especially 'maters) & lots of herbs!

Articfire: It wonderful to share your ws seedlings with your gardening friends, neighbors, family, at plant swaps, round-ups, springtime markets in your area, plus I'm trading a lot of my seedlings with co-workers for their containers! I get their jugs & they get my plants. The barter system is alive & working well in my neck of the woods! :~)

Anita: You're wsing Impatients???? You brave girl!!! Please let us know how they do outdoors. They are one of those "iffy" plants & are VERY tender!

Thanks shirley, I will keep an eye on my shallow containers...they can be touchy, and will follow your lead about planting out in May.

You are in an even warmer zone than I am in-- so I will hold off on my tender tropicals, too. Good idea.

Thanks. t.

yes - I thought I would try impatiens as they volunteer on me all the time. If not, then I'll just buy a flat and treat them as a tropical next year. Live and learn - I'm a keepin' those records!!! :)

I sowed begonia indoors as I couldn't find it on the list of germinated w/s plants. That's another one - if I don't have success, then I'll buy a flat.

Ok - who has winter-sowed dahlias? Or even started them outdoors later than winter - like in April? I don't know if they germinate if the soil is less than 65 or 70 degrees. I've got 2 packs of seeds and I'd really like to try them but if they germinate too early I'm pretty sure they'll die. Anybody try this?

One last dumb question. I have seen photos of gallon plastic milk jugs with the cap off as WS containers. How do you get soil in there and then evenly distribute the seed? I'm sure this is a super silly question - but I don't get it.
A

You cut the container in half. Then you either force them back together (slits help) or use tape. (Except the people who can build ships in the bottle. This is simple for them. ;)

A,
Cut the milk containers almost in half til you create a hinge effect. Make your drainage holes. Add soil &seeds then duct tape the container shut. The first year I used duct tape all around the slit of the container. I soon learned in the spring that it was nasty trying to get all the duct tape apart. So now I just use a couple of small pieces and it holds it in place. Make sense?
Michelle

A - I do the same. I also w/s dahlias this year. I guess we will see the results come spring. I figured, whatever doesn't come up - I can buy and know better for next year - or change the time of year I sow them.

AHHHHHHHHH ! So thats the ticket.

I was told at a local garden center that grows their own annuals that its too late now to sow impatiens even in a greenhouse because they take so long to germinate. I put the impatiens seed back on the shelf. I have a lot of volunteers also but they never get going till mid-late summer and are very sweet sticking here and there - especially in the cracks of my brick walk. Maybe I should have tried it anyway - when I think about the cost of 2-3 flats of impatiens vs a pack of seed.

alyrics-- if you still want to try your impatiens-- if they take a long time to germinate try soaking the seed in the (1 part to 20 parts) hydrogen peroxide/water solution overnight first.

That may hurry them along a little...

This soak would just be experimental, though, but worth a try.

I'm sure we're all curious about the results!

Have you noticed which impatiens seem to come back? I seem to always get a pale pink with a tiny darker eye, sometimes also the pale lavender. Never get the whites or darker purples, reds, etc. I suspect the seed has to be top-sown - maybe thats why it sprouts in the sidewalk cracks. Or maybe they need good drainage. I have the same thing with columbine. I've saved seed from a dark pink/red columbine and it never seeds true to color - always a pale pastel.

How would you separate the seed to sow it if its wet? Does the H2O2 solution hasten germination?
If so I could try it in 6 weeks or so - too uncertain right now. Cincy vs Cleveland is a world apart - trust me - that is a very important 5 hour weather difference. I didn't even bother soaking my nasturtium seed - I fugured it was going to be damp and freeze and thaw in WS container anyway.

Hey Anitabryk - if you end up buying dahlias and have a Costco nearby - its the least expensive I've found and the tubers are healthy and big. For the amount of space I have its not too bad to buy named dahlias tubers at $1 each ( 9 for $8.97 except I got them on sale the first week for 6.97) vs. sowing and transplanting. Ok- they don't have everything and it may not be exotic but for deck pots and putting into my borders I got a lot for not so much $moola. This year I got 2 peony flowering types: Bishop of Landaaf, Bishop of York, 2 Pompon types: Yellow Coronet, Wizard of Oz, and 2 Decorative types: Bluesette and Wittem. I also bought the Unwins Stargazer series seed which my friend grew last year and they were so fun - like a carnival - every flower was different hues of yellow through pink and burgundy - kind of a cactus type I think you would say.

I have definitely been bitten by the bug. I love to take cuttings and start things I have no use for - LOL.
Y'all have a great day.

I'll keep my eye out the next time I go to BJ's, which is similar to Costco. Thanks Alyric

I have gotten the white ones as volunteers.

Alyrics-- so what zone are you in in Cleveland? I thought the weather was fairly temperate up there because of the 'lake effect'...

Yes, the hydrogen peroxide solution soak has proven to hasten germination and improve germination rates in many seeds. When I soak seeds in H2O2/water I swirl the solution around and take a teaspoonful of it along with some seed and sprinkle it onto the growing medium...a little casual, but seems to work OK.

Maybe I have to go to Costco and get some Dahlia tubers! Sounds interesting!

Tabasco, have you soaked seeds that need a long time to germinate and then Ws'ed them before with success?
I have never grown hollyhocks from seed before and I am Ws'ing them. I have already done one variety in one pot, but I have many more and am unsure if I would be better off giving them a soak first. ??

I want to do impatients too and I will do them since they are the lighter colors I want. I too have the volunteers all over the beds were they were previosuly planted, but I want a moon garden with lighter whites and pinks in the back where they are. The self seeders do come up later, but I would not listen to anyone suggesting it is too late right now to do this. May July would be a little late!!!! Maybe they will come up sooner than later due to the increased container temps as opposed to the ground temps being cooler for the self sown seed?

Susan