Allow (Cultivars ) Yes, only if noted in the thread.
Allow( Adapted ) Yes, only if noted in the thread.
I may be wrong about this, but if I was to submit an application for an Urban Wildlife Habitat (or something like that) I think that a cultivar of a native would be counted as a native. As long as we make the notation, I believe that would allow the person reading the info to make their own judgement. (Even books on natives will sometimes have conflicting information.)
Besides, I'm not always sure what's a cultivar and what isn't. You're right, Josephine, we'll be doing a little bit of research, which will be a good thing.
Someone asked (on another thread?) if we could organize the the pictures much like PlantFiles, but we can't. PlantFiles is a database that Dave has developed, and we are simply kind of doing our own little thing in this forum alone, with threads. I know it won't be searchable like PlantFiles, but it is "searchable" (on the main directory thread) by subjects like trees, shrubs, blue, orange, yellow, etc. Earlier this year there was a great thread about low-growing full-sun blooming plants. It isn't searchable by plants, but it makes a very nice "cruise" as you scroll through the thread. I found several plants for my garden that way.
I hope Dave will allow the sticky of the directory. As Josephine said, the individual threads themselves can eventually move past the first page, but anyone who wants to find them (and new people who look in who have never seen them) will be able to access them easily through the directory post. Until we get the sticky, we can continue to "bump" the thread.
Gardening with Texas Native plants & Wildflowers. Part 7
Thank you Mary, for and leting us know that we can't have something like the Plant Files on a thread, I had been wondering about it when Veronica asked.
I do hope that Dave is listening and watching, so far no word from him, may be he is waiting to see the final result, before making a decision, and when he does, I hope it will be favorable.
Thank you all for voting, I beleive some votes are not in yet, we will give it some time so all of us have a chance to say what we think.
Josephine.
The more information available, the better. I don't know anything about any of it, so anything left out is just something I don't learn.
I just ran into some photos I have of pond vegetation (water lillies, fish grass) and other plants suitable for growing in a bog environment. It might be useful to have a separate thread for these in case someone needs to locate plants for his/her pond or bog area. It would be much easier if these plants were listed in their own thread. What do y'all think?
I want to play devil's advocate for a while. What source is going to be used as the authoritative surce for deciding what kind of labels a plant receives? TAMU has a web site that lists endemics, but it may not be complete. It has a DFT Vascular library that I know is not complete. Botanical terms used must be correct. The word "adapted" is not generally used in botony because it is too broad. Generally, the terms "naturalized" or "nonindigenous" is used to indicate introduced species, whether accidently or deliberately, into the biotic community. "Indigenous" or "native" are used to describe species that have spread on their own. Without insurmountable barriers, species will expand into new territories, especially when the new areas are hospitable (I found out recently that some birds are able to fly over Mt. Everest.) A 'cultivar' by its very definition would normally not flourish or be found out in the wild.
If we are to avoid conflicts and unpleasantness, we need to agree on how to disagree over terms and ID as well on definitions of the terms used.
I have listed some pertinent botanical terms:
Adaptive radiation: The evolutionary diversification of a taxon into a number of different forms, usually as a result of encounters with new resources or habitats. Adaptive radiation generally occurs over a relatively short period of time. Adaptive radiation. The evolutionary diversification of a taxon into a number of different forms, usually as a result of encounters with new resources or habitats. Adaptive radiation generally occurs over a relatively short period of time.
Adventive plant: A species of plant that is not native and has been introduced into the area but has not become permanently established. Adventive plant. A species of plant that is not native and has been introduced into the area but has not become permanently established.
Cultivar: A variety of a plant produced and maintained by horticultural techniques and not normally found in wild populations.
Endemic: Belonging or native to a particular people or geographic region; a genetically unique life form.
Indigenous: A species that occurs naturally in an area; native.
Nonindigeneous: (Also called exotic, nonnative, introduced, and alien.) A plant or animal that is not native to the area in which it occurs; it was either purposely or accidentally introduced.
Taxon (taxa): Any organism or group of organisms of the same taxonomic rank; for example, members of an order, family, genus, or species
The definitions listed above were taken from:
http://biology.usgs.gov/s+t/SNT/noframe/zy198.htm
Indigenous: 1. In many cases, this term is used interchangeably with "native".
Native: 1. Native plants are those not introduced by humans to an area. (The Policy on the Use of Native Plant Materials in California. Instruction Memorandum No. CA-97-34 Bureau of Land Management, California State Office.)
2. "Native species" means, with respect to a particular ecosystem, a species that, other than as a result of an introduction, historically occurred or currently occurs in that ecosystem. (Executive Order 13112 of February 3, 1999 -- Invasive Species
Naturalized: 1. Naturalized species did not naturally occur in a particular region, but were introduced by humans, and consistently perform harmoniously in their new context. They are non-invasive and provide ecological services for the local wildlife and with wider ecosystem. (USDA Forest Service, Living Memorials Project.)
2. A "naturalized" species is defined as an introduced (non-native, exotic) species that can consistently reproduce and sustain populations over many generations without (or in spite of) direct intervention by humans. After successful local establishment, some naturalized species disperse and produce viable offspring in regions distant from the sites of introduction. Such species are called "invasive." (Richardson, D.M., P. Pyšek, M. Rejmánek, M.G. Barbour, F.D. Panetta, and C.J. West. 2000. Naturalization and invasion of alien plants: concepts and definitions. Diversity and Distributions 6: 93-107. In: Naturalized Fabaceae (Leguminosae) species in Taiwan: the first approximation Shan-Huah Wu, Shu-Miaw Chaw, and Marcel Rejmánek. (2003) Bot. Bull. Acad. Sin. 44: 59-66.)
3. Naturalized species are introduced species that have been present so long among their associates that mutual co-existence is demonstrated. (Environmental Geography Course, Sweet Briar College, Virginia.)
Non-Indigenous: 1. Most of the nonindigenous introductions are a result of human activities since the European colonization of North America. This includes not only species that arrived from outside of North America, which are commonly referred to as exotics, but also species native to North America that have been introduced to drainages outside their native ranges within the country. An example of the former would be the Brown Trout, Salmo trutta, a native of Europe first imported to the United States in 1883 from Germany. An example of the latter would be the Coho Salmon, Oncorhynchus kisutch, a native to the Pacific coast from northern California to Alaska, which was introduced into the Great Lakes as early as the 1920's. (http://nas.er.usgs.gov/whatis.html)
Non-Native: 1. An introduced species, evolved elsewhere, that has been transported and purposefully or accidentally disseminated by humans (for our purposes, in North America). (Li, Hiram W. 1995. Non-native species. In: Laroe, Edward T.; Farris, Gaye S.; Puckett, Catherine E.; [and others], eds. Our living resources: a report to the nation on the distribution, abundance, and health of U.S. plants, animals, and ecosystems. Washington DC: U.S. Department of the Interior, National Biological Service: 427-428.)
The definitions listed above were taken from:
http://www.gatewaywildlands.org/invaders.asp
One last thing, when photos of flowers are posted, we need to remember to include photos of the leaves as well. Perhaps even buds or seedheads, if available, because often times correct ID of a plant depends on the leaves. For example, someone in the Identification forum had an evening primrose she wanted IDed. If she had not included a photo of the leaves, her primrose would naver have been identified.
Absolutely.
Thank you thank you thank you for all the work you all are doing. I'm still very new to gardening (and Texas!) and the threads of native plants are WONDERFUL!!!
~ Marylyn
Alright now I am confoused where to look for sure... I bought three books at half price books and they have diffent plants listed for natives! I might have to post and leave native or other blank until I hear for sure from someone.... If you want to get really lost look on line at plants venders for natives or not! I found lost of Red Clover listed as a native all over - anything to see a few right?
Mitch, plant vendors are not your best resource since they are interested in selling plants, use the links on the directory, they are better.
Josephine.
gosh, I'm impressed....I have a degree and still need to "ponder" that one awhile bettydee...am thinking here..........
Uh-oh. :-) Veronica, you are so cool!
Aha! Just the kind of rousing but friendly discussion I was hoping for. Is there such a thing as a(n) horticultural anthropologist? It seems that determining whether a plant is native or was introduced by or caused to be spread by humans many years ago could be very difficult to determine - 'bout like trying to figure out what really happened to the Anasazi. Also, it seems to me that even cultivars sometimes naturalize.
Veronica, I certainly appreciate your knowledge and your research on this topic. I agree that we need to include pics of the leaves and seed pods and, oh how I'd love pics of the seedlings with the first true set of leaves. I'm a serendipity gardener and I don't pull something new up until I know what it is. Sometimes this results in a wonderful surprise and sometimes it results in a pesky weed that's hard to get rid of. Also, I think it would be helpful to know the approximate size of the plant and/or flower because closeups can be very misleading.
Keep up the good work, y'all!
Veronica, so far (except for one), all I am including are those plants that are designated native or endemic native plants. There are a lot of plants that are in some Texas wildflower books that are listed in the USDA Plant Profiles as native "introduced" plants (usually from Mexico). So, one has to do more research before posting a plant that is designated a "Texas wildflower". Some of the plants listed in the TAMU database are "introduced" plants as well. I for one don't mind adding just "pure" natives in these threads. Perhaps, another thread could be started later on for introduced plants so there is a resource here for these plants that do so well.
As an example, I always thought that the Copper Canyon daisy was a Texas native, but it is listed in the USDA Plant Profiles as an endemic native of Arizona. But, you can find it listed as a Texas native on many native Texas websites and in some Texas native plant books.
This message was edited Jul 16, 2005 8:23 AM
We have been confronted with a long standing issue. Lumpers vs. splitters! After googling lumpers spltters This is only one of the returns. http://www.answers.com/topic/lumpers-and-splitters
I would place them all together because from what I have read most plants have come from somewhere 1000's of years ago or now, kinda the way things grow. One plants gets stronger and in time someone says native... or at least my understanding from what I have read!
Well, Texas used to be part of Mexico so I guess that our native Texas plants are really native Mexican plants. :o)
LOL - I guess we could look at it that way.. we could have lots of tropicals for natives!!!In high school we lived in VeraCruz and wow would love to see those plants for natives here!
Place what all together? Lump redwoods with kudzu and call them 'plants'? You have to split at some point. Kudzu will not be called native in the US in our life time. Kinda the way things are. :)
LOL
O.K. Guys, I think that if we get too picky, we are going to make it hard for people to post anything for fear of doing the wrong thing.
My understanding of what this threads are about is, to share with others what we know about native plants, and to encourage them to use them in their landscapes.
Some people don't realize how lovely the plants are, that grow here in our beloved Texas .
We can introduce these plants to many people and hopefully inspire them.
It seems that some of our members are unsure of which plants are (Endemic )( Native)
( Cultivars ) or ( Adapted ) or ( Naturalized )
If some of you think the term naturalized is better than adapted we can go with that, it really doesn't matter to me, so we can decide to change it, no problem. Please let me know.
What I think what we need is ( plant cosultants ) Two trusted persons who like to do research and are knowledgeable.
The way this would work would be, when one of us wants to post a picture but can not decide in which category it fits, after checking it him or herself, that person can submit the picture to the consultants,via email, and the consultants after doing research, can make a decision. Then if the consultants decide that it doesn't fit any of the categories we respect the decision and do not post the picture.
I think that handling it this way will solve some problems, #1 it will allow people who are not sure and might not post, to participate in the fun, and at the same time share with us what might be a rare plant.
#2 It would eliminate arguments and hurt feelings.
What do you guys think? I like this idea very much. Please let me hear from you all.
Josephine.
I am all for that Josephine - sounds to me like a great idea.
We need clear definitions for the five terms (endemic, native, cultivars, adapted, naturalized), assuming adapted and naturalized are not the same. Whos' definitions?
I think that we couldn't go wrong with the definitions in the tree links on the
Picture Directory, or we could be looking till kingdom come.
For example, if I have a picture of which I am unsure after doing my own research, I submit it to the ( plant consultants ) and if they decide it doesn't fit any of the categories, I just don,t post it, and that is it.
It really is not a big deal if one of my pictures doesn't get posted, I can live with that with no problem. What do you think, John?
I didn't see definitions there, Josephine.
I there a place on the Texas A&M website that gives definitions for these words? We all use them for a solid place to look into for true natives right? So maybe at the least we could email them for a few answers... just a thought.
I'm gonna confess...it's gotten way over my head and I don't have time to sit and learn it right now. Maybe in the winter, but now with kids out of school and much to do in the yard etc, I'm running in and out just trying to keep in touch with other adults. I don't know much about natives, and when it gets too deep and involved I just skim over it and go to the next topic. Maybe y'all could condense the lessons down to the Cliff Notes versions?
People I hope we don,t lose everybody trying to be too precise. Here is a definition from The Wildflower that was posted on part #2 may be this will help.
Subject: definition of native plant Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center
What is a native plant, and why should I care?
Answer:
Native plants are those plants that have evolved within a given environment. They were not artificially introduced to that environment, nor were they artificially cultivated. That said, "native" is often a relative term. Plants which are considered to be native to Michigan are most likely not native to Mozambique, and vice versa. The crux of the matter is what happens when a plant from Mozambique is placed in a non-native environment - like Michigan.
You see, native plants have evolved - by trial and error over centuries - to live within the means of their native environment. However, when placed in a non-native environment, these same plants may be able to successfully adapt to the new environment, possibly becoming invasive, non-native plant
What happens to plants placed in non-native environments depends on the circumstances. Let's say you plant a water lily in the desert. While it would surely be non-native, it wouldn't become invasive - it would quickly die. In other cases - such as the infamous case of Kudzu in the American South - plants are introduced to environments that are a little too perfect. Removed from conditions that limit their growth, these species become invasive, growing unchecked and out-of-control, choking out native species in the process (read more).
As humans developed technologically - particularly as our means of transportation grew swifter and safer - we began to exponentially broaden the distribution range of many plant species. Simultaneously, we reduced or denigrated natural habitats and resources at an alarming rate. As a result, the balance of nature has been knocked off kilter, devastating plant and animal habitats worldwide in an awful contagion.
The Wildflower Center believes that the conservation and reintroduction of native plant species will help restore the balance of nature, which can assist in reversing ecological damage. We also believe that native plants possess great economic value, conserving resources more efficiently than non-native species. And, we believe in the natural beauty of native plants - beauty of both form and function, beauty sprung as much from a sense of place and a quality of belonging as from shape, color, or scent.
I feel the same way as KKblonde.... I had already told josephine that... I don't know enough to report here, in an official capacity. Now that I think about it, I refer to the plantfiles, other internet sites, or the good books that I have purchased for information.
I am not one to submit data to research at this point. I am still learning, and that's how I found Daves so interesting, we are all learning together. I do read the posts daily, anywhere from 1-6 times a day, so I am here, but reading and learning....
Personally, I would rather find researched and verified information (although current) on the plants that I am interested or might be interested in. Books work for now.
melanie
Ditto, Mel.
Josephine, being precise is exactly what we need to be. We are talking about only the five terms listed above. My intent is not to confuse but, to clarify. We should not attempt to define these terms. That probably would confuse and, would be pointless since officialdom has already done the work. We merely need to identify the source for the definitions used. If we don't nail this down now it is likely to cause "confusion" down the road.
This is my understanding, in simple terms, of the three category definitions that we are discussing.
A native plant, is a plant that was found growing wild in a certain region at the time the plants were cataloged by Botanists.
Example: Texas Bluebonnet.
A cultivar, is a variation of the original native plant, that has been brought about through human intervention, such as selective propagation of a certain plant, that shows the desired traits, or through cross polination.
Example: Lantana Camara.
A naturalized plant, is one that was not native to the region, but was introduced by wind, water, animals, or humans, and has become established in the region and now grows wild along with the other native plants.
Example: Queen Anne's Lace.
Please remember that we can not control what other people post on the threads, as you can see on some of the color threads. We need to do the best we can, but we can not control the threads, and that is O.K. We can do something good, and have fun in the process.
Sincerely, Josephine.
This message was edited Jul 17, 2005 11:58 AM
I would remove my Mealy Cup Sage, Duelberg Sage, 'Henry Duelberg' Salvia (Salvia farinacea, 'Henry Duelberg') entry because it is a cultivar and replace it with something else, but I am unable to remove the photo. Sorry ...
I have a feeling that all this is getting way too technical. Huge long posts don't get read they get skimmed or jumped and they frighten people off!!
I got totally lost way back! If you are going to be this technical and picky, I, for one, am likely to lose interest totally!
I should also point out that State boundaries are totally arbitary. A native plant doesn't stop growing at a line in the dirt because its move states,or coutries. So it is highly probable that a Texas native and a Mexican native, or a New Mexico or Arizona native would be the same plant. Plants and wildlife are not parrochial!
Sorry but felt it had to be said.
Carol
I think a cultivar of a native species can be lumped with natives, Hazel. "Adapted," I think, differs from naturalized in that many common garden plants are adapted to our conditions but, not naturalized. There I go splitting when I prefer lumping when I can. :-)
Btw, I think I interpeted the above terms as suggested categories of plants growing wild. My bad.
You are absolutley right Carol, a plant is not stopped by state boundaries, and a plant that is native to Texas can also be native to other states as well.
The purpose of these threads is to group plants by color so that they can be found more easily, and to introduce people to regional plants that they may have not seen before, because nurseries don't promote them.
Frankly, I had hoped to ignite a passion for Texas plants in the hearts of Texas gardeners, but alas, that may not be possible, at least not through this medium.
I don't know, we shall see how it all works out, but please don't give up, we will get back to having fun soon.
Josephine.
Hazel, you don't have to remove anything, on the contrary, you have already contributed more, and more thouroghly and accurately then anyone else, so we need to be thanking you. Josephine.
John I think you are right, the term should be Naturalized, it fits what we are trying to say better, I will change that.
Josephine.
Josephine, oh but, you have ignited a passion for Texas native plants! Thats all I want to grow in my yard even to the exclusion of all non-native grasses and trees! Keep plugging away.
Thank You John, that is so good to hear,and so nice of you to say. It gives me hope that we haven,t turned everybody off.
Josephine.
For me, it fits in for my desire for low maintence, reduced costs for water, fertilizer, pest control, wildlife and, interest in the plants native to my area , etc.
Hello everyone, I need to start the picture thread for Aquatic & Bog plants and the only good picture I have is this water lily which I took at the wilflower center, but I don,t know the name. Could some one identify it for me, please? so I can get that done.
Thank you for your help, Josephine.
