Future of coops

Dave, I greatly appreciate your interest in coops being run fairly and in a reputable way. When I first became a paying subscriber I thought "wow. you mean I need to send money to someone I dont know !" But I have done so and have been so pleased with the results. I have some plants I could not have otherwise afforded.

I hope the problems with some recent coops will not result in their demise.

I do know that anytime you deal with other folks money there is a danger of problems. Since we dont all do things the same way, we fear that someone is trying to rip us off if things dont turn out like we expected. And sometimes that is probably exactly true !

When I take part in a coop: I look at several things
1) do I feel that I know this person-via personal experience or trades or just watching their posts on the forums over a period of time
2) have they been a member of Daves long enough to participate in several coops themselves and have a small idea of what is involved
3) I never spend over about $25 so if something bad happens I wont cry too much ! LOL

Coops are somewhat of a risk as we dont physically know each other. I do appreciate Daves effort to look for problems and address them. At least here you do have the option of disagreeing with him if you want and not being sent to Micky Mouse Land.

The coop experience has mostly been great for me Dave. I hope you allow them to continue. And we as subscribers must be a little discerning also in deciding which ones to participate in and to what $$ amt. We are dealing with "the world" on the basis of word text posting and it is sometime impossible to tell the difference between truthful problems and lies.
my2cent worth

I want them to continue too! They are a wonderful way of getting plants for a cheaper price than we would normally have to pay.

Maybe we could say you have to be a member for at least 6mo to a yr before you should be allowed to host a co-op. I know that i feel better entering a co-op from someone that has been here at the site for awhile.

Dave Im willing to help anyway i can-Im here everyday! ;)

I agree with notmartha - there has to be some sort of "paying subscriber for X months / years" before hosting a co-op. It seems like co-ops gone south come from new subscribers, who snag the cash, then run.

It stinks that co-ops have turned into such a mess - Remember back when you could post on your own, handle the payments on your own, and run one without admin control? Too many co-ops have gone down the drain, so now that's probably one of the most watched forums.

Too bad it's come to that, but something does need done, and I think the time restriction is a good one.

-Jennifer

I've suggested privately in the past that perhaps we can have a coop mentoring program where first-time hosts are paired up with an experienced coop host. Perhaps that could be an interim step before severely limiting the coop opportunities. I think Dori's idea of requiring 1st time hosts to be subscribers for 6 months is a good idea.

As a bit of anecdotal commentary I think the absolute BEST coop I've been involved in was the one on bareroot perennials that Sunshine365 just hosted last month. They were fantastic plants. Prices were not a significant savings over local greenhouse prices, but the plants were very large and healthy for the money. Looking at Sunshines registration date - she signed up on 2/7/2005 and her coop started on 2/8/2005 (the next day).

The "X months/years" idea isn't going to work. We have had co-ops go bad even when hosted by members who have been here for over a year. Tenure does not equal responsible!

Dave

Of course I know that is true, Dave, but as Dori said it does give a potential coop host a bit more open eyes when they've participated in a few coops. I guess what I was trying to say is that I would rather see a successively more strict coop hosting approval process than a sudden moratorium. I think there are some interim steps that could be taken. However it turns out I definitely support you, Dave, in your decision. You've always done an excellent job of insuring a safe environment for us here. Many thanks, as always, for what you've given us here.

Though I would probably not participate in a coop by a new member, membership does not guarantee trustworthiness. It would protect us from folks who might sign up just to run a quick scam.

Also, I believe that inexperience is an issue. Having participated in several, I still have no idea what must be involved and face it folks- you will NEVER please everyone.

When a host must pay the vendor in advance, (I mean much in advance) I feel that is a recipe for disaster as alot can happen and the money is already gone.

When a coop flops, the end result is the same whether it is the fault of the host or unavoidable circumstances. Whichever, it doesnt bring your money back.

I know this would be restricting but you might consider limiting the dollar amt each person can invest. Yea, I dont want to loose ANY money, even $10 but some folks do invest alot of $$ in these things. Course we know we are taking a chance.

Dave, I'm just spouting out some ideas. I appreciate what you do to try to protect members and I hope we can continue the coops because I have really enjoyed them. I thought we might all put in some ideas (not pointing fingers at anyone) and it might help make the future a little smoother and find a good workable way to continue and not aggravate you into a rocking chair ! LOL

I, too, hope the co-ops will continue. Although I was involved in one that failed, I have been delighted by most of the co-ops I have been involved in and the good experiences (and plants!) certainly have outweighed the bad. I would be more upset at the total absence of co-ops than the failure of one or two that I participated in.

I also realize (with gratitude) that I am not in Dave's position. If a co-op fails, my inbox will not be filled with emails from upset participants. It will not be my responsibility to sort out what happened, figure out if the host was deliberately trying to deceive members, attempt to get money and/or promised goods sent to participants, etc. Since Dave is the one who has to deal with all of this, I think he must be the one to determine the future of co-ops on DG. I do hope some of the options mentioned above will be tried. I also think it might be useful to open each co-op with a disclaimer warning potential participants that DG is not responsible for the money or plants involved. In other words, participate AT YOUR OWN RISK.

Dave,
Nothing in life is a "sure thing" except death and taxes. lol It's an old saying, but true. I really hope we can get this worked out because I am sure there have been many, many more successful co-ops than there have been bad ones. I know you said months/years as a subscriber will not work, but it seems like a good idea to me for this reason: When Nadi started her co-ops right after she joined, my first thought is "who is this person?" I had never seen her name in any other post and didn't feel very comfortable with the co-op. In the same vein, when somone like "eyes," "langbr," "aknapp," "wandasflowers," etc. hosts a co-op, I can't wait to join because I feel like I know them personally. Actually, I feel like they are some of my best friends and I don't hesitate to trust them. So, my point is, maybe we should have a chance to get to know someone better before they are allowed to host a co-op. I'm sure you will make the right decision but I wanted to add my two cents since I really do love participating in the co-ops.
Terrie

Charlotte, one point you raised brings to mind my own experiences with organizing co-ops (I've done a half-dozen or so.) To be honest, I've NEVER had a vendor require payment far in advance. Some do require that the order is placed well in advance, and they want a credit card # to assure they will get paid, but they don't charge the card until the time the order ships (that includes brokers and wholesale/retail vendors I've dealt with.) On the co-ops where I've picked up the plants from a local vendor, I paid the proverbial "cash on the barrel head" at the time I picked them up.

Orrganizers need to be aware that they should not be asked for payment in advance; if they must provide guarantee of payment they should use a credit card to protect them AND the participants. If you don't have a credit card (or a high enough limit on it) to cover a co-op, then maybe you shouldn't organize a co-op.

That may sound harsh, but organizers should understand they are taking financial responsibility for hundreds or even thousands of dollars and they need to financially protect themselves AND the participants. Failing to follow through on a co-op is not only unethical, but possibly a criminal matter under the US mail fraud laws.

Maybe it's my naturally cautious nature, but in every co-op I've done, I make it clear that I don't cash anybody's checks or money orders until the order is on its way to me. I get a big envelope and everybody's payment gets stowed in there until the day my credit/debit card is charged or I am on my way to get the plants.

That way, if there's a crop failure or other problem that makes the co-op undoable, I can easily return the money orders and return or shred the uncashed checks. For my own peace of mind, I know there's no question or worries because the money was ever mixed in with my personal funds, and a credit card transaction can be disputed (and verified if anyone questioned it.)

I am saddened to see the problems in the coop thread. I surely don't want to see the demise of coops, but would have to agree that as DG grows there becomes the risk of someone not fulfilling on a coop, for whatever the reason.

1. I would suggest perhaps that when a coop is requested from admin, that admin needs to know exactly who we would be dealing with. I would be more hesitant to deal with a broker, as I think there are a lot of nurserys themselves who will work with us, as well as the broker adds one more layer of potential problems. So, when requesting a coop, I think the name and address and contact person at the nursery should be mandatory. I for one, would be upset to learn that someone organized a coop using a broker and then later to learn that the plants came from, say, Spring Hill or Brecks.

2. I think there needs to be limits on anyone organizing their first coop. I know it is mentioned in the coop primer, but not strongly enough, and I can tell you, these things get out of hand quickly. I offered the hosta liner coop last fall, at the same time that langbr and Greta were offering their hosa coop. I actually tried to back out of mine when theirs started first because I didn't think there would be enough interest. I thought limiting the ordering time would put some control on it as well. It didn't. I think that a first time coop organizer should be limited perhaps both in $$$ to be handled, and/or # of plants. Mine was wayyy too big, and I'm the first to admit it.

3. Terry's mention of credit card is excellent. I think that should be a requirement of a coop host. When you apply for a coop, you need to provide evidence that the nursery will accept a debit/credit card, and you must pay for the coop in that fashion. This protects everyone, including the host.

4. As a coop participant, I feel that I should assume some financial responsibility as well. This is NOT Daves job, all he is doing is providing us the vehicle to meet online, and organize with like minded people. My participation in a coop is entirely voluntary, based on my own greed for plants at bargain prices. How many of us have bought from Ebay, and gotten burned? I think it is my responsibility to evaluate each and every coop individually and decide if I feel it is going to be handled to my satisfaction. A red flag to me, would be a lengthy term between payment and plants; not knowing who the plants are coming from; a brand new member hosting; or a first time coop without preset limits.

Please, let's not lose a great feature of Daves.

Terry & Terre --- very well said.

Dave please don't send the co-op down the road, I have only been in three and I have never spend enough money that if something happens I am out a bunch. So far I have been very happy with what I have gotten. I am suppose to receive my Hardy Hibiscus next month and will let you know how my plants are (I do know what to expect because I have bought hardy Hibiscus before). When I do join in on a Co-op I look at it like this, if I don't spend to much and if something should go wrong and I am out, then I won't be out that much. Then if everything goes good and I like what I receive then I can kick myself in the fanny for not ordering more. Also I look at a co-op like if I go to the nursery and buy some flowers and plant them and they all die, or I simply kill them I am still out the money. Who do I have to blame then. I do realize a co-op that has gone bad may come back on you. But I feel like if I participate in something then it is my own fault for doing so.

I personally send Nadi a e-mail and told her about the same thing that I wrote here. I am not one to past judgment on any one.

So please do not discontinue the Co-op. This might be a good survey you could run in the Voting Booth, that way you could get views from all members not just the ones who participated in the Hardy Hibiscus Co-op.

Linda

This message was edited Mar 23, 2005 1:03 PM

This message was edited Mar 23, 2005 1:13 PM

Well, a new co-op (Caladiums) will begin today, hosted by the trusted member BuriedTreasures. He called me on the phone to clear it. :)

I will of course continue to accept co-ops from those members who we know very well, and are confident in. Those who are strangers, however, are going to have a very difficult time getting accepted. :-(

dave

Speaking of which.............Terry, Dave I need a new thread, please. The Cannas have landed!! Now to get my orgainizing and packing party ready for a week from Saturday........sorry guys, it's Easter this weekend, and family comes first on that weekend.

"eyes"

eyes, if you'll fill out a co-op application (again), and just put the details that need to be shown on the new thread, I'll release it and that way you can close it when you're ready ;o)

Huh? Got me confused Terry, this isn't a new Coop, it's the finalization of the original.........but, then it doesn't take much to confuse me.........will do.

"eyes"

DAve, sorry, I emailed you, should have just posted here.

I also enjoy the co-ops; in fact, I think it's one of the best things about DG!

It seems to me, and I don't know it for a fact, but it seems to me in this instance, that it wasn't inexperience that was the problem. You know what I mean?

How to guard against, not sure, except to have the same folks having to do all the coops and that doesn't seem quite nice for me to expect that of them!

Dave...I have been a member here for close to a year and continually look forward to seeing new co-ops pop up in which I can choose to be a participant. The co-ops I have participated in have worked out very well for me...I have been able to make some great purchases at wonderful cost savings...and at the same time made contact with new friends that have the same interests as me.

Gosh...I have even been thinking about hosting one myself...

Thanks for all your caring concern for the members of Dave's Garden. You are appreciated.

Deb

Well, I must add my 2 cents. Tho I haven't done every co-op offered (thank goodness) I realize that it's always, just a chance. A chance I can get some great plants for a great price, and I sure do appreciate all the co-op hosters, my hat is off to y'all! I was in one that wasn't so satisfactory, but hey, we're all human, and I'm the one that took the chance, how can I be upset with me? Isn't life a crapshoot? I adore the co-ops!

I'm sad that there hasn't been as many offered lately. I do like langbr's suggestion of a mentor. Or perhaps 2 members that live close together could take one on? I can't imagine the headaches (well, wait a min, I do do RU's, lol), but, as I said, I realize that we are all adults, have our own agendas and most of all, our own free will, and as others have suggested, enter at your own risk!

The co-ops are one of the biggest reasons, I exalt to others, to join DG. It's a shame that Dave has to be bothered about all this, (but I do appreciate how you try to look after us all here, Mr. SuperDave, you are the best :)

Just my two cents worth, I have had wonderful experiences in DG coops. It has induced me to try some varities of cultivars I might not normally order. I've been very pleased with the quality of the plants I received.

When I started my Spider/variant daylily co-op, I chose a nursery that had sold me spiders a few years ago. I knew they were reputable and I have been very pleased with the spiders they sent me. I posted their name in the co-op. I limited the daylilies I offered & kept the numbers under 400 roots.

Melissa has been kind enough to give me the benefit of her co-op experience and even set up a page with pictures of the plants offered. Her hints have been invaluable to me as a first time co-op host.

The money is in, my deposit is paid to the nursery & we are waiting for later in April for shipping. I've had fun so far offering great deals to my DG friends. Ask me in May ( after all the dust settles) if I would do it again. I hope so since I'm already looking into a possible iris co-op.

Co-ops add extra fun and value to the Dave's Garden experience. Let's keep them alive and healthy!

One of the many things I love about DG is the Co-op Forum. The Co-op's were one of the Forums that first attracted me to DG. I think it is safe to assume that we all enjoy purchasing plants at a significant savings and that the Co-op Forum should continue for the sake of all the honest, trust-worthy & respectable gardeners here at Dave's.

Personally speaking, I have hosted two successful co-ops, the Helleborus and Clematis Co-ops in the past. From what I'm able to observe, I feel more guidelines need to be in place to insure the success of present and future co-ops. The Co-op Primer is an excellent source of information about running a co-op, but perhaps it needs to be updated with a couple of new items.

1. Length of co-ops - A realistic number of days/weeks (determined by DG management) should be applied to each co-op. A co-op should have an end date that participants are aware of from the beginning and a cut of date that is agreeable and manageable for the host/hostess. It should not be an "open-ended" co-op, with no end date in sight.

2. Limit numbers of plants - I think a lot of co-op hosts get "way over their heads" when they try to offer to much. Limit the numbers of different varieties. I've seen several co-op hosts that "get into trouble" by trying to please everyone, instead of keeping the co-op realistic and within bounds of completing successfully.

3. Knowlegeable Hosts/Hostess - the suggestion that DG'ers that have a proven track record of participating in other co-ops (paying on time), are active subscribers at DG on an ongoing basis for a minimum of 6 mos. and have a clear understanding that embarking on a co-op is a lot of responsibility and work. It should not be taken lightly. I think the pairing of "new" Co-op hosts with "seasoned" ones is an excellent suggestion and should be considered.

4. Expectations - running a seed and or bulb co-op is a lot of work, but running a live plant co-op takes even more. Perhaps limiting new co-op hosts to only seed and/or bulbs might be a good learning experience for the first time. Once they have proven successful with their initial co-op, they can then expand to barerooted plants for their subsequent co-ops.

5. Payment - everyone will spend what he/she thinks they can afford. Unfortunately, sometimes participants order, but don't pay. Personally speaking, that particpant should not receive any merchandise until full payment is received. Co-ops are now posting when payments are received, date of payment or if no payment was ever made. That becomes crystal clear to everyone. The amount that individuals chose to spend is entirely a personal decision. However, the participant has to take full responsibility for completing the payment. It is NOT the responsibility of the Co-op host to pay "up front" for the plants. If you enter into a co-op you need to pay the full amount ON TIME.