Lawncare forum

I am aware that serious gardeners probably more think of the lawn as something to cut up and turn into garden beds, but I am personally a big fan of good lawn care. Would such a forum have interest ?

Well, I would be interested - we are struggling to rejuvenate an existing lawn - mostly fescue in the front and a lot of bermudagrass and other weeds in the back.

Indeed. A beautiful lawn not only sets off other plants but is a wonderful place for kids and pets. I am in the process of doing a new lawn. I have used Roundup to kill everything, raked up the dead stuff, put down a dose of lime and I am getting ready to re-seed. I still have a question about whether or not to use a pre-emergent fertilizer. Any thoughts?
Allen

I would not worry about pre-emergent. Just use grass seeds. You can always fight crabgrass next spring.

I'd love a lawncare forum, ours is 75% weed 20% grass and 5% who knows. DH poked at me a few nights ago when a was "gently" suggesting he DO something about the grass to find answer here. *G*

Saint

If you have 75% weeds, my recommendation is to eliminate the entire vegetation (round-up) and them plug, or sod new grass. If you want bermuda, you can also sow seeds.

lol... ok maybe that was an exaggeration *G*

Personally I would find a lawn care forum of interest only if there were threads about organic lawn care, and grass alternatives, such as turning your grass lawn into clover or moss. For the moment, I'm getting these needs met through the organic and curb appeal forums. However, up here most people do seem to be fans of grass lawns; it's a huge business. Wonder if this thread being bumped back up will attract any more interest in a forum now that it's mowing season - ?

Shannon

I think you could discuss both, and not just one or the other. Personally, I use an organic approach to lawn care, except I will use synthetic fertilizers without hesitation, too. E.g. I don't use weed control or insect control products. I dig dandelions, I pull clover, and I have luckily never had a big problem with bugs. I will use synthetic (man-made) lawn fertilizer products (I don't rule it out).

On "that-other-gardenforum" there is a lawn forum where the organic crowd has gone of the bin IMHO. They talk about buying Nitron-A35 and other "unprovables" as being the hole grail. There is also an attitude that using synthetic (man-made) fertilizers is compared to the pouring of chemicals on the lawn and high flying arguments about kill roots and that organic lawncare is far superior to the use of manmade products (which sometimes it is, but which sometimes it is not.. it depends on the circumstances, I guess).

If we can have a lawncare forum, I hope we can have a bit more civil (and a lot more factual) discussions.

I second the idea that I'd like discussion of organic lawn care on a forum, and even grass alternatives. I prefer not to use man-made chemicals on my lawn either, especially due to the fact that we have pets (and kids in the future). It troubles me to know that even organic milk has DDT residue in it (as do I in my own body, and I was born after it was made illegal in the US). Believe me, the unknowns in the pesticide world are still huge! I would find the forum extremely helpful as long as it included information such as spklatt has suggested.

I think the biggest mistake is believing that organic lawn care products are harmless. Most organic fertilizers are made from activated sewage sludge, manure or blood meal (or a combination). You can not be sure how these products are handled and if there are ecoli, or other pathogens in the fertilizer. Just to high light that any kind of fertilizer and herbicide/insecticide should be treated with care.

Personally, I would think that using Scott's Turfbuilder (ammonium nitrate and urea) which dissolves like salt (it is salt !!!) with first rain, leaves a lot less residue compared to using a manure based organic fertilizer, or sewage sludge.

Just goes to show that often there is too much hype when it comes to "going organic" and that misinformation and misunderstanding is running rampant.


Maybe the reason is that the salt based (synthetic) fertilizers are termed "chemical fertilizers" while the manure based, blood based, or sewage sludge based fertilizers are termed "organic fertilizers". The stigma "chemical " seems glorify organic fertilizers and give synthetic fertilizers a bad rap unnecerssarily...

I like it better if we take a look at how the various components are build up biologically and inject a bit of science into the discussions rather than the much used "catch phrases" which tend mislead greatly.

I worked with a lady once who stopped using Turfbuilder after their son was born. They wanted to bring him out on the lawn, and so they switched to ... RINGER LAWN RESTORER.... while I love that fertilizer... what the lady accomplished was putting manure based fertilizers on her lawn which dissolves slowly and have the kid play in that instead of putting a salt based fertilizer on the lawn which disappears in 24 hours...

Oh.. well...

Ok down from the soap box...

Allan,

If you are seeding your lawn you CANNOT use a preemergent crab grass product! NEVER at the same time/same growing season!

The pre-emergent keeps ALL seeds from germinating, not just Crabgrass--including the grass seed you would put down. If one used a pre-emergent, you pretty much cannot seed until Fall. That is the best time anyway--late August/early september. Right now, in our area, it is too late to seed a lawn as the newly sprouted grass would burn up. In a few weeks we will all have 90+ degree weather....

Hope this helps. Gitagal

PS. There are several Lawn Service Companies that have options for all-organic lawn care. Of course, there are no organic products to kill weeds or insects. Fertilizers? YES! I use one such company.

I think a lot of people assume that "organic" = "harmless" (and many others assume that "home-made remedies" (a la Jerry Baker) = "organic".

None of which is necessarily true.

Organic alternatives *can* be safe(r) than some chemicals - but that doesn't mean that all are simply by virtue of being "organic", nor does that necessarily mean they're more (or less effective) than their non-organic counterparts.

As pointed out above, it pays to know what you're using, and how it breaks down once it's applied.

I think the stigma "Chemical" (in "chemical fertilizers") is what is throwing people off a bit...

The interesting part is of course that you are adding excactly the same to the lawn whether you use synthetic (chemical) lawn fertilizers or organic fertilizers. You are not adding anything extra (hazardous) with "chemical" fertilizers although a lot of organic minded people refuse to accept this...

A bag of Scott's turfbuilder has "ammonium nitrate, potassium nitrate, and phosphoric acid" included. When the salts dissolve in the rain, ammonia and nitrate (nitrogen), potassium and phosphrous is released. The rest is other "harmless" bonds such as carbon and water.

When you add a bag of "Ringer Lawn Restorer" the organic fertilizers must he consumed by the microbes in the soil. Once done, these microbes release chemical elements (= elements from the periodic table) such as oxygen, carbon,hydrogen, nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus. Sounds familiar ??

The products you end up putting on your lawn ARE THE SAME .. there is no difference.

The difference is how the products were created / produced. Synthetic fertilizers are fertilizers created as by products of the oil and gas industry (for you SUV.. ) and the products are then synthesized (produced) in a factory, packaged and sold.

Organic fertilizers are byproducts from the slaughter house industry, from sewage plants (human waste), from cow manure from farms, chicken manure from egg farms, etc, etc. These products are then combined, packaged, and sold.

So all, in all, chemical fertilizers have one origin and organic fertilizers have another. Chemical fertilizers dissolve in water whereas organic fertilizers require microbes in the soil to "dissolve" the fertilizer nutrients.

The plants can only take up the small fertilizer elements in their chemical form (e.g. nitrogen, NH3-, HN4+; etc) and they do not care if the origin of these chemical (essential) elements were from a cow or from burried oil resources. The bottom line is that the same kind of fertilizer molecules enter the grass roots. How these fertilizer molecules got to the lawn is the only (and real) difference.

The real problem is of course that "chemical" gives a different association: we think of evil men in hazardous waste suits pouring light green stuff in the river killing the fish; babies with 3 arms, and dead forests.....

In reality, "chemical" fertilizers usually produce less residue on the lawn compared to organic fertilizers which may tend to have more heavy metals included...
Of course, the organic community don't always see it that way.

Well, what you said is partially true, but there is a difference and there are legitimate reasons why people would prefer using organic fertilizer. Since I have a science/chemistry background, I think of everything as being "chemical," whether manmade or natural. I favor organic fertilizers because they function naturally in then environment, playing roles beyond merely making plants grow bigger. Organic fertilizers promote soil health by creating a positive environment for soil microbes. They also leave more organic matter, which creates a richer soil. They are not water soluble, so they last longer and require less applications-- and the "residue" is natural and nontoxic, so that really isn't the issue. In the long run, plants will be healthier when the soil is healthier (and this includes not only the molecular nutrients, but the whole soil ecosystem). Also, when these man-made fertilizers dissolve, these elements don't disappear-- they remain in the environment also, washing into the groundwater. Homeowners using too much synthetic fertilizer on their lawns results in water pollution.

I believe the "organic community" believes in going organic not because "chemicals" are bad or "residues" are bad per se, but because they look at how the ecosystem functions and how their actions play into the natural web, rather than focusing on the one task at hand-- how the molecule enters the roots, for example. I agree that misinformation is running rampant. But please recognize that not everyone is uneducated and uninformed. All I'm saying is that a lawn care forum with organic information too would be extremely helpful for me. I'm not saying-- and I don't think anyone else did, either-- that we are opposed to any other kind of discussion there. Anyone is free to take the advice they wish to take, read the threads they wish to read, and we can all respect where everyone else is coming from.

Danark..I love your comments.. they are the RIGHT reasons to garden organically and I do believe there are many informed organic gardeners.

However, I also see very many organic gardeners who uses the types of arguments I had outlined (almost scare tactics) to convince (or should i say convert) new "believers". I am not opposed to organic gardening, on the contrary, but I am opposed to teaching/recommending organic gardening based on misinformation...

Your summary is very nice. One point where I disagree slightly is the point of adding organic matter by using organic fertilizers. The amount of organic matter you really end up providing the soil by using organic fertilizers will be very minute (unless you put down substantial layers of compost for example) . If you buy pre-formualted "Ringer Lawnrestorer", "Milorganite", "Blood Meal", "Alfalfa Pellets" etc then the organic matter content left after a few weeks is extremely limited.

Don't get me wrong, I am a very big advocate of improving organic matter. I mix compost into my flower beds (amending) on a yearly basis and much to the dismay of my family, I keep two compost piles within sight distance of the house.

But using organic matter on the surface of the lawn as fertilizer is going to increase OM percentage of the root profile only ever so slightly that it is hardly noticable and therefore the comment probably sounds better in writing compared to the real value.

Synthetic fertilizers do not pollute if applied at the right times of the year and in the recommended doses. If you apply them in incorrect amounts or apply them during times of the year when the lawn can not use them, then yes they do pollute, but so does organic fertilizers if applied by people who don't know what they are doing. Organic fertilizers near bodies of water can do tremendous harm.

So does grass clippings which careless home owners brush away from driveway and allow to fall into the gutter. Any gardener (organic or not) have the possibility to pollute. Using organic fertilizers does not prevent this.

You can have just as healthy soil using synthetic fertilizers. I believe it is a gross misunderstanding that synthetic fertilizers leave hazardous compounds behind. The compounds are often oxygen and hydrogen bonds which combine into water or harmless gas which disappate. Organic fertilizers (depending on the source) has the possibility to contain higher levels of heavy metals than recommended so even here you can in some instances make a case that hazardous compounds are left behind. I am not saying that all organic fertilizers do this, but some do and just to highlight that healthy soil is there for users of both organic and synthetic products, and risks for adverse impacts are there for both users who do not pay attention to what they do.

I am back to my original point that there seem to be a desire to "convert" to organic lawncare with comments about unhealthy soils, pollution etc if you use synthetic products. I think this line of argumentation is severely flawed and this is why I often argue with organic gardeners. Not because I don't believe in organic gardening.. but because I don't believe in the arguments used to justify organics over synthetics (e.g. turn a negative spin on the use of synthetic products which I believe is primarily faulty as outlined above)...


This message was edited May 26, 2005 4:05 PM