Suggestion for PDB - Dave?

This time of year, many of us are saving seeds, and for many of our new plants, we have no idea what to look for - there are so many different types of seeds and ways to harvest them.

Would it be possible to have a "special place" to place seed identification pics (not with the pics of the flowers) on the page, to help people identify the seeds? I think, if there were a designated place for them, people would be more apt to take pics of their seeds, to post them and help others out.

Karrie

Oh, interesting question.....

I like Karrie's idea.

How about adding a "picture type" field in the PDB picture upload form. Options would be "flower", "foliage" or "seeds/bulbs/roots". Then the PDB display form could sort the pictures by type.

The main problem with that would be how to set the "picture type" for everything that has already been added to PDB. Most of the existing pics are of course flowers, except for foliage plants (those grown for ornamental foliage). But I don't think you'd be able to run an automated update query to set the "picture type" with 100% accuracy - so it might require some extra work by the PDB administrators.

Oh my!!!! ... That does sound like a marvelous idea !!!!
I feel that such as a Seed ID area .. could/would most definitely contribute to many folks!

I spent a while just this mornin' .. gathering various seeds ... and, yep, I sure did take some pics of the seed I gathered. If for no other reason, my pics provide documentation and reference. Also serves to aid tremendously, in educating myself as to when to start looking for the various seeds, what to look for, when and how to harvest, and how to store safely for keeping, etc.

In this instance in particular ... a picture would, undeniably ... be worth a thousand words !!

I have no doubt that any possible 'wrinkles' could get ironed out in no time at all !!

We've got some mitey wonderful and intelli-tech-ual folks at the helm of this garden vessel!!

Dave, Trish, Terry .. anyone out there in the play yard 'listenin' ... ?

This message was edited Sep 18, 2004 9:41 PM

My mind has gradually turned to seed saving now that my first garden is winding down, so I offer a hearty YES vote to Tom and Karrie's ideas!

Photo owners would be allowed permission to move any of their existing pics from the now main photo area to the seed/foliage/bloom area; new photo posts would be given the option from the onset but could also move later, as desired.

Donna

P.S. SO1 and I have already decided what our Christmas present will be this year - a nice digital camera! - so I've already got plans to help populate the PDB in the spring. :)

Good fer you guys .. TuttiFrutti (and SO1) ...
Happy cam'ra hunting and enjoy your shoppin' ...
The research and the window shopping can be pretty interesting!
And no doubt, that you guys will definitely thoroughly enjoy your new digital camera !!!
( Heard that 'santee' comes early some times too ) .. hee hee - mags

I like that idea. I have just started saving seeds, and sometimes wonder if what I'm saving is seeds or just flower parts. Marigolds and blanket flower were hard ones for me to figure out.

I agree. I've found one other really good seed identification site but it would be great to not have to leave DG for that info!

Hey! langbr said to post this here: Seed Info Site: http://theseedsite.co.uk/index.html


It was put there by Moda127 at htis page: Saving Seeds: Seed Info Site:

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/456336/

I'm sorry but I don't understand what is being suggested here so if I'm not seeing the idea, please put me straight. We already have photos of seed in the PDB and like all other photos they have the caption option, we'd welcome more photos of seed and other plant parts.

Or, are you suggesting a totally seperate database for seed? If so would we be listing seed from genera only or full species?

Here's another good site for seed ID http://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/seedid/

Not really a separate database, just a link added for the entries to show a separate pic of the seeds, so people know what to look for.

I want photos of the the stem with the seed pod on it, and then the seeds also, being the greedy soul that I am!!!

I have such a hard time trying to figure out if what I think is seed is in fact seeds!!!

I would love a whole seperate database just for this, but I do dream a lot and I can't imagine that Dave could begin to do much more than he all ready does!!!!

But just in case!!!!!

This has to be one of my biggest desires!!!! I would even volunteer to assist with it!!!!

I know that I have a terrible time figuring out where the seeds on some plants are and then what the pod should look like when they are ready!
I thought they all turned brown before they were ready and found out this year that some are not that way at all.

I have this vision of a database with just info on seed gathering and if the original will come true from seed, and all sorts of info about seeds and gathering.

Thats my fantasy and I am sticking too it!!!

I love the uk site but unfortunately they do not continue to add to their original 300 plants. And as we all know their are so many more that produce seeds, and even within families of plants the seed collecting can vary a lot!!!

I apologize for rambling!!!!

Karrie...I agree something, though I'm not really sure exactly what or how to incorporate the information, is needed in our current PDB for seed saving and identification (read that as "SHOW ME where they are...when to harvest...how to harvest...how to store...when and how to start them!")
:-D I think I'm beginning to sould like Aknapp!

I've visited the UK site listed above...thanks btw...that site has a lot of information, but...

I think Dave has spoiled us with the amount of info we can access here and what we have just needs expansion to include more. Not greedy or anything...grin...I just my stuff in the same place. Why leave DG if we don't have to. ;-)

~julie~

But I still don't see what is needed to be done by Dave here. The PDB needs more input on these things from us, not new features!

There are a number of entries where you can see photos of seed, pods, stem, leaf etc but not in all of the entries. I agree there should be photos for all of these in each entry but bear in mind we are a Work In Progress and we don't have complete information or photos on all the entries we do have.

Please folks if you do have these photos or are still out there taking photos of plants, and lets face it, now is an excellent time to get those seed and pod pics, please consider taking a photo of other parts of the plant too :) Oh and for those that do, a note in the caption box is very much appreciated.

Well, one feature that we could add that I think would make a real difference is, we can give a drop-down select box when you upload the image. The select box would give you the following choices:

Is this a picture of... (select one):

Seed
Seedpod
Seedling
Mature plant
Flower
Dormant
(etc)

Then, folks can indeed to specific searches for things like: "show my all seedling pictures of lagerstroemia". It wouldn't really be THAT hard to program. Going back through all the past images and editing them to include the new information could be made easier with special tools that I'd write for us admins.

dave

What an incredible addition that would be to the Plant Database! Thank you so much for adding it!!

I didn't say I was going to add it, though. :) We're still talking about it, and Baa and Terry will have a big impact on the final decision.

dave

Oh, please, Dave, Terry and Baa. It would be the perfect addtion to PDB.

Baa, I have uploaded pictures of seeds and seedlings, but unless you know which cultivar to look under you might miss a good picture of seeds or seedlings of a species in which you're interested.

This is an idea I petitioned Dave for some months ago. For those of us that like to gow things from seed it would be an incredibly helpful addition. I can't tell you how many times I've wished that I could find a picture of or germinating info on a particular type of seed.

I think this would be a logical addtion to PDB and it would be soooo nice not to have jump from site to site to find info.

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!!! That's *exactly* what I was talking about! YES!! X's and O's for you Dave. If there's anything I could do to help...keep me in mind (aside from adding info, which I already have, I mean.)

~julie~

Dave even the consideration of it warms my heart!!!

You are just the best!!!

I know one day soon I will never have to leave Dave's garden for anything!!!

I am always amazed when you notice our requests!!!!

Need to think about this for a bit..the dropdown list could get mighty lengthy :o)

Yes, there are rather a lot of possibilities. If the bit someone has photographed isn't on the list it may put them off posting and we'd lose a valuable image

Still it's a great idea.... just needs a lot of thought

I agree with Terry's comment completely, we need to be very careful in what we choose to list if we have a dropdown box. In one respect we don't want to confuse people with a seemingly endless list of names that may well be unfamiliar and in many places unnecessary (such as fern anatomy) but if we don't include enough, we get complaints from those who specialise in particular types of plants *G* Orchids come to mind but are by no means the only type of plant with specialist names.

Even if we kept it fairly broad (full profile, closeups of flower, stem, seed, leaf, blade, roots, bulbs, bark, fruit. Just right there we have 10 choices. And that just barely covers herbaceous and woody ornamentals in the broadest possible terms. (Not even getting to the specifics of calyces, corollas, petioles, stamen, etc.)

Then there are the less-ordinary items such as cactus needles; viviparous plants in the act of reproducing a live young-un, carnivorous plants feasting on an insect, rose hips and pinecones (would they be considered seeds to a typical PDB user?) aerial roots on vines and climbers....

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket on an interesting proposal, but I'm trying to think through this from all angles and make sure we don't make a mess of things ;o)

I don't blame you a bit Terry especially when you are one of the ones that would be most affected by it.

It couldn't help but make more work for you and as much as I would love it I understand looking at it from all sides possible.

That was part of the reason I thought maybe it could be a seperate and unique database! Which of course, probably requires even more thought, time, and work.

I love the uk site, but there is so much information that is missing from it, such as where the seed pod is located etc.

I have also discovered this year that not all pods turn brown before they are ready, which was quite the enlightening experience for me.

Having written a few very small databases, I know what a daunting task it would be for everyone, but it is definitely one of my favorite fantasies.

If you do a search and try to find this kind of information, it is nearly impossible unless the uk site happens to have it. If they actually list it, I can count on its being one of the ones that their isn't a photo of. The other site shows you the seed itself, but gives you no clue where it might be located on the plant.

There is also the fact that a lot of plants are easier to start from cuttings than from seeds, which of course would be wonderful information to be able to access. I just learned this spring that its as easy to start mums from cuttings as it is from seed.

I don't believe anyone should or would call you a wet blanket what a horrible thought!!!!!

Would it be possible to just have a forum for that purpose? I know we have the propogation forum which I use a lot, but this does seem to me to be a different subject totally.

I think you guys are thinking way too specific. Why not as simple as....

Foliage
Flower
Fruit
Form
Seed/Seedling

and an all inclusive General

Aknapp, we have the seed saving forum!

Hi baa I know that we have the seed saving forum, and their are lots of questions that get answered in it,

I am really not trying to start trouble or make life difficult for anyone, I consider the plant database here to be superior to any of the others that I have found, I guess I just thought it would enhance it even more if the other information was available. Especially since their is no other place to get this information.

I agree brenda that it doesn't to be complex, but then I don't always realize how many items their are in the database besides flowers. That may be part of what makes it much more difficult.

Seed collection and propagation is what first brought me to the PDB, then to Dave's Garden over two years ago. I was so pleased to find member submitted info on how to start seeds, etc. With the new PDB, we've lost that section since it has been replaced by pull downs. I understand the reasoning, but I mourn the loss.

When I first saw this request, I sighed... KISS (keep it simple, stupid), but some sort of section in Dave's on how to start plants from seed, stem cuttings, etc. would surely be welcome, as far as I'm concerned. If nothing else, there are tons of reference websites available that show seeds and offer germination info, such as Tom Clothier that could be offered in a link.

As for pod identification, seed identification, etc., it seems our PDB could certainly offer that with the other photo options. If we could type seeds into the search and find the available pics that way, that would be great, but it boggles the mind.

Perhaps the propagation issues would be better addressed in another thread? Not wanting to throw cold water on the subject but it might be better addressed as a seperate subject.

Langbr

Trust me, there is no-one more keen to keep things simple in the PDB than a PDB editor, however, this is a complex subject and if something is too general then there is no point in adding it IMHO, and as Philomel rightly brings up, we may put people off from adding a potentially valuable image. Whatever we do, it could be seen as a half measure compromise AND an overly complex system depending on the views of different members!

I'm not familiar with the database programming of the PDB, but I've worked with a lot of relational databases over the past 20 years. And from that personal experience, adding another "chunk" of data isn't that difficult, at least not from programming aspect. HOWEVER...:-D I also know that no matter *how* simple a database is *supposed* to be, if people don't know what they want when it's written...the only thing accomplished is a nightmare for the future. LOL

We don't want to give you guys (Dave, Terry, and Baa) nightmares, now do we? ;-)

Y'all take your time and make your decisions...I'll still upload my seed-ing documentation. I just thought it might relieve some of the forum pressure if the option for seed collection was available through the PDB.

At any rate...THANKS TO ALL our admins for all the time it takes to even THINK about this!
STANDING OVATION starts HERE!! :-)

~julie~

dave -
"Seed
Seedpod
Seedling"

Baa - "this is a complex subject and if something is too general then there is no point in adding it IMHO"

Why can't we start with only a few notations, such as some of those Dave suggested, and if that works add from there? Those three categories are quite specific and yet not too weighty (logistically speaking).

And, Dave, isn't that exactly how you've build these two web sites, adding a little at a time?

Here are the pitfalls I see:

1) It's not simple. (Sorry, but it's not - no matter how much we might wish it to be.) Drag out a botany book and look at the different basic elements of an herbaceous plant (don't even delve into the reproductive parts of the flower.)

Then consider there are also bulbs, tubers, epiphytes, cacti, trees and shrubs.. They all have various (basic) elements and that's a lot of choices to make people read and choose from. If I'm submitting a picture of a cactus pad, I'd be stopped dead in my tracks if my only choices were seed, seedpod or seedling. Or foliage, flower, fruit, form. A cactus pad is none of those things. Then think of an image of a tree's bark, or the aerial roots of a climbing vine - where would they fit if these were the only choices proffered?

2) Starting small is no longer an option. The PDB now stands at around 75,000 entries and over 50,000 images. No matter how you slice it, that's a MASSIVE amount of work to "retro-fit" with additional data. Starting a separate (new) database of seed images would mean new users would have to decide which database to submit their images to. We have people who don't know which entry to submit their images to right now (which is one of the reasons we have a queue instead of instantaneous uploading of images.) We also have users who don't understand the differences between Botanary and Garden Terms. I routinely cull out things like "perennial" from Botanary, and binomial names from garden terms.

Please understand - this is a good idea in theory, but adding another database adds another layer of complexity, and I'm just not sure our users are up to the challenge. Which means we're back to deciding whether (and how) this data could be fitted into the PDB.

I stand corrected, Baa....exit stage right.

Hi everyone - I missed alot on this thread while gone for 4 days.

It is very hard for me to paint a picture of what I was trying to suggest to begin with.

You know how in the PDB, when you look at a particular type of cultivar, it has zones, type of sun needed, and then "propagation methods"? I was thinking that down by propagation methods, there could be a link there, to click on, to see seeds (or even seedlings, etc.....) and that same link could be used to add pics of those, if they aren't on there yet (just as we did with the pics of flowers).

It is very difficult to harvest some seeds, as they don't really "stand out at you" and you don't know what you are looking for to harvest to plant the next year (or share with others as well).

If a drop down menu would be better, that would be fine. If Baa or Terry want help, I will volunteer to help out, as pics and info come in. I just think it would be a very good addition to the PDB, because harvesting seeds is very important to us that want to share what we have and keep more in the coming years.

I hope I painted a better picture this time, of what I was originally thinking! :-)

Karrie, thank you for your note and clarifying what you meant. It *is* a good idea. What you described is the "finished product" - what readers see when the images would be properly placed.

The problem lies with how to get the images properly placed when they're submitted. Remember this is an open database with new users trying it for the first time every day. There are no training classes on data input (as there might be with a new system being implemented in a work environment.) So the process has to remain very simple and intuitive so that new and more experienced users won't be thrown for a loop.

Think through the current steps to submit an image - do you have some suggestions on how we would explain to users what to do with a seed image vs. any other images?

hmmmmmm - ok, go to this link on the PDB.

http://davesgarden.com/pdb/go/68993/index.html

After propagation methods, there is a section called "seed collecting".

If under the seed collection part there was a link to click to "see pic of seed or add pic of seed" it would be helpful.

I realize now I opened up a big can of worms, because now people want to see pics of seedlings, etc... as well. When growing seeds indoors, it is easy to tell what you have if you have used new, sterile soil (there shouldn't be anything else in there growing, and if they are marked. Also, if I am planting outdoors, I am careful to plant my seeds in straight rows, and mark them, so I know they aren't weeds popping up (weeds pop up at random and not in straight rows).

If we could even get people more active in not just taking pics of their flowers, but their seeds to add to the other pics in the PDB it would be helpful. I see them on occassion, but not near enough, and have had a real tough time decifering what my seeds were.

I actually, earlier this year, sent out lupin "pods", not seeds, to other members thinking I was sending them the right thing. Later, many emails later, I realized I'd harvested them wrong, and that after the pods burst, little seeds inside pop out, and it is THOSE that you save. A picture would have saved me on that! There is information about allowing the pods to dry on the PDB now, but I don't believe that was on there when this happened.

Karrie, I think we're talking past each other. I understand how it would look once an image is submitted and I agree it *would* be handy.

But the problem is: How does that picture get there in the first place?

If it's submitted like any other image, then it becomes an editorial issue for Baa, PoppySue, Mystic or me to move/shuffle images or create new links so they can be viewed from another part of the entry. There are 50,000-some images in there now. It would take us more than a month of Sundays to go through and find those that would need to be moved or new links added.

On a going-forward basis, If the user must decide where and how to upload the images, (seed vs. other images) then there is a learning curve (more like a hurdle) to deal with - how do we communicate/teach people where and how to submit images of seeds vs. other items?

very good question, lol!

If you remember, when I first joined this site, I had a problem just finding the right thread to post a question or comment on, because there were so many of them that I didn't know even existed! My posts were always being moved and I found it kind of embarrasing! :-)

It would require alot of editing to do what I am envisioning.

So........ if we could just make a thread in the seed saving forum, the annuals & perennials forum, (I don't think the seed saving forum get's visited enough by people who know what they have, mostly by people with questions, like me, so it's difficult to get answers there) ASKING FOR HELP with pics of seeds to add to the PDB, just with the other pics as they are now, with no changes, that would be helpful and enough for me!

Question, Dave, et al. When I am at a page (i.e. http://davesgarden.com/pdb/go/68993/index.html) and I click on the genus name would it be possible for all pictures of seeds, seed pods, and seedlings of that genus to come up in the results, as well?

I know that would mean there woudld have to be some type of radio button, etc on the page when the photo is uploaded, but would it be doable without too much work? And those pictures that have already been uploaded could they, over time, be brought to y'all's attention so that the proper coding notations could be made for them, as well?