and they are pretty! Just totally different. I bet you do not need a 20 gallon pot to grow a daylily in! LOL. Oh the money I spend on soil and pots alone. Not to mention bug fighting.
And daylilies multiply on their own, where I have to cut, root and repot up any brug babies.
But then, dyalilies are ground dwellers and Brugmanisa are used to having their heads up with the angels! lol
the usual Hybridizer's rights .... your opinion
I am with Kell on this. If one wants to grow seeds of a hybridizer, then that hybridizer's quidelines should be followed. There are some excellent seeds being produced now and it is more important than ever keep info on them.
Oh, I don't think that brugs and daylily folks need to follow the same protocol either. I just thought it was interesting how different the handling of seeds was between the two.
Actually, I think the seed thing may have been a bone of contention at one point in the AHS too, and the problem was solved by making the originator the one with registration rights, no questions asked. I don't know the whole story, but FOOLED ME, a very popular daylily cultivar, was hybridized by Phil Reilly but registered by Ann Hein. I think Phil may have shared a piece of FOOLED ME with Ann when it was a seedling and she took it upon herself to register it? In any case, I get the impression that he was not very happy about it.
I hybridize and grow irises and I'm not sure if the AIS has a policy on purchased or traded seeds. (I'm sure someone will correct me on this if I'm wrong.) I've never seen a policy on this for the AIS, so it may not have ever come up.
I also used to hybridize and grow African violets from seed years ago and at that time, the AVS would not register any plant grown where the parentage was not known.
I think I was the most confused I have ever been when I started growing orchids! :-) Orchid seedlings usually have a grex name (if it's registered) and then a clone name. So you end up with a name that runs off the edge or covers both sides of a plastic plant marker! LOL!
*shrug* I just think it's interesting how the different societies handle things like that.
Oh we are not a society, or perhaps just a society of friends. Just a bunch of brug nuts enjoying each others company on Dave's.
I wonder if ABADS has an offical policy. ABADS is the offical Brugmansia and Datura Society I believe. I am not talkikg about the forums there, but the society itself. I know they have tons of fantastic info and great pics.
I just wanted to throw this out there to see if anyone had anytihng to add or delete with good reason and if we could get it together as a group to agree on this. That way everyone down the road, will know what to expect and what is expected of them.
ABADS is working on some guide lines of proper seed & seedling etiquette. It will be printed in the next new letter and maybe on the website. There's a discussion going on over there too. It seems like most people have the same concerns and suggestions about it.
This agreement is fine with me and I would agree to it. I don't think it is asking to much on any ones part.
:o)
Dee
I was just thinking the other day do you think the seed grower has the right to ask the hybridizer if they want a cutting not to give it away unless they agree upon it first?
i hadn't thought of that, Amanda. I figured it was the hybridizer's right to do with it as they please...that's an interesting thought!
I agree with Kell and as a grower of the seeds given the plant still belongs to the Hybridizer. I turned my garage into a green house just to try some seeds and cuttings. Did the cuttings last winter and will do seeds this winter. All plants I grow will belong to the hybridizer. They want it, it is theirs. All I want is some cuttings off it for my work in babying it into a grown-up.
man i have been bored and pollinating, and that got me thinking about this question, if you get pollen from someone do you think they should have part in the seeds and plants of the cross you make? I already know what i will do but just thought I would get your brains to working this morning.
I think it is always nice to offer seeds to people who help you with pollen and you can even ask their opinion about the new seedlings you grow. I do think it is your choice what you do with the seeds or seedlings though. Just because I send someone pollen, I don't expect them to send me seeds or even involve me. It is just a courtesy. JMHO!!
I agree Brugie. I send pollen out occasionally and I would hope I would be offered a few seeds as a courtesy. I guess it is just good manners. But if I wasn't I would not be crushed unless it was a cross I really wanted and could not do myself! LOL
As far as giving my seeds to someone, LOL Tom, you are so sweet. But the grower does so much work and pays for all the care so the plant is truly theirs! A cutting to the hybridizer is sufficient I would think!
Gee Amanda, I never thought about your question about giving away a cutting. I guess what is good for the goose is good for the gander. What is a gander anyway? LOL
LOL -- Kell: an adult male goose...
lol Kell!
You can tell I didn't grow up on a goose farm! LOL
Anyone have the new ABADS hybridizer points? I hear they are excellent. I can't get in there to the Podner's forum. I do not know what I am doing wrong! It is OK with Trish if we post them here. How nice of them to share their ideas.
Kell: I thought you to be a member of ABADS...
Here is a link to the hybridizer's rules. Dunno if you can open them though...
http://www.abads.org/viewtopic.php?t=312
Gretchen
Kell, I am way down on the list, but I would love to grow out some of your seeds. Now that I have one of my new seedlings getting ready to bloom, I feel the urge to plant more seeds. Funny how that works huh !!
Patricia
Kell, the guidelines are not in the Pod'ners forums, they are in the forum titled BrugBuds.
When you buy a seed you buy all rights to it in my opinion no matter if it is Park's or whatever. Otherwise all consideration should go to the hybridizer
There is a big difference in buying Parks seeds or any other seeds from any other company compared to buying from a hybridizer. When you buy from a company, you know what you are getting. There are going to be very few surprises unless they send you the wrong seeds. I think when we get seeds from a brug hybridizer, at least from here and whether you buy them or are given them, these are seeds that no one knows what they will turn out like, the hybridizers (from here, Daves Garden) don't just go out and make crosses to have seeds to sell. They usually sell the seeds because they want to see what the cross would produce, but can't grow out all the seeds themselves and their friends can only grow so many also. (A little money coming in helps support the habit of growing brugs.) I doubt that many of us have ever even attempted to grow out every seed from a single pod. I can't imagine trying to grow 30-250 seeds from one pod myself. If I got seeds from Monika, and I have, I would never ever take those seeds and call them my own. What if I got a double brug from one of her seeds and everyone in the world knew that we didn't have anything in the US that could produce a brug as beautiful.......no way could I call it my own. I may be a little old fashioned, but I think you have to work for what you get and I'd rather be old fashioned and honest about the seeds that I grow. As far as all considerations going to the hybridizer, I think it is common courtesy to send them a picture of the blooms, ask what they think, and if they don't want it to be circulated around, that is okay too. You have the brug, if you like it, you can continue to grow it without giving starts of it away. We have to remember that not all seeds are going to produce beautiful brugs and if we name everything....first of all, the hybridizer who knows brugs, knows what he/she expects of a cross and would prefer that only the best are kept (and sometimes, that means none) and secondly, I've seen so many brugs named lately after seeing the first bloom, that it is unreal. I honestly believe that there are going to be so many look alikes out there that the hybridizers themselves and the growers aren't going to be able to identify their own brugs. I think that once you have grown a lot of brugs and seedlings, you will see that it is easy to throw away seedlings that don't make the grade. It will even become easy to throw away a brug you have loved for years in favor of a new one. This is just my opinion and not intended to interrupt the flow of this thread. Everyone's input is good whether it is positive or negative. Hybridizers rights should be decided so that there is no question in the future. Thanks Kell, for thinking about this and getting the ball rolling.
Well said Brugie!
I agree!
There are WAY too many being named,and things are getting VERY confused
And they are being named WAY too soon
If you have a seedling that you like you just KNOW you are gunna nickname it.Heck I do it,but if the seedling proves to be a look alike to a named brug....keep it for yourself but don't release it,use it for breeding.....but don't send out or sell cuttings from it...
There are way too many that no one can tell apart from others right now
I think everyone would like their OWN named brug......
But make sure it is one that stands alone
That no other can compare to it or be confused as to which it is
Out of 100's of seedlings you will be lucky to get 1 that is worthy,so if you get 10 seeds in a pack from someone what do you think your odds are that YOU will get the winner?
Unless of course you are dealing with Monika's or someone of that caliber ,who has the genes already set up,and is likely to have a few keepers out of a pod .
Even Monikas seedlings come out and end up as composters
( wouldn't'cha love to dig around and have access to her composted brugs?)
I hope that I will not disturb the direction of this thread either as it is a theme, that for a long time needed to be brought up :)
That is well spoken, Shirley and also very inspiring to read all other opinions as well. It is of course discouraging when you from time to time can read a post here or there, where a hybridizer experiences to mail out lots of crosses and then after a long time only hear back for a few seedling parents. So I was only happy that Kelley raised the subject and that groundrules are being laid for both hybridizers as well as seedling parents.
Personally I had good experiences mailing out seeds. My own groundrule might be a little different from other hybridizers preferences, but of course it is important to understand and to remember, that different hybridizers might have different wishes and what really matters is, that the seedling parent comply with the agreements that are made with each individual hybridizer :)
Here is my ground rule, one and only:
1. I mail out to a seedling parent and both evaluation, decisions and in the end naming is up to the seedling parent, as the seedling parent had all the hard work raising the plants to bloom.
I trust 100% completely any seedling parents judgements on the plants. If they love it, they don`t need me tell, if they can keep or share it or to name it for them. Good Golly! They all have lots of ideas of their own :)
Some might hate me for that, ... but I heard back from 23 of 24 seedling parents. Thanks in bunches coming your ways! :D
Why would any of them hate you for that Tonny! My gosh, you do not even have 1 rule from what I can see! Did you hear back about all the seeds you sent to the states, Tonny? I know I have seen one or 2 of your blooms and would love to see more around here!
Here is a list that ABADS came up with. A kind soul sent it to me and I have permission to post it here. It is very interesting to read. It brought up points I had not even thought about. I know bad feelings can occur if there is no meeting of minds.
These Guidelines are based on the experiences of the American Brugmansia community over the last 7 years.
1. Hybridizers and Seedling Parents, make sure growers understand that you are sharing cuttings of your seedlings for evaluation purposes only.
2. Growers if you receive a cutting to evaluate please guard it with your life. Please understand that you are not free to trade it, sell it, or use it for hybridizing purposes until the hybridizer releases it.
The evaluator must keep the hybridizer informed about the growth and flowering habits of a seedling/cutting when grown in the evaluator’s environment.
3. Hybridizers and Seedling Parents, Grow your new seedling for at least a year before you distribute it to others for further trials and evaluations. How does it perform in your own environment through every season? This will save you from the embarrassment of distributing poor quality and look-alike seedlings.
4. The number one problem in the Brugmansia community is the naming of seedlings before they have been properly evaluated. Please do not broadcast news of a new seedling to the public using a proper name and call it a working name. At the rate the Americans alone are hybridizing we face horrible nightmares to keep working names and official names straight.
Instead of using proper names please give your seedlings a special code number or series of letters that make sense to you only ... anything but an actual name.
Take a look at the USA sites that have Brugmansia galleries. How many were quickly named and introduced but died before evaluation was complete? How many were quickly named but never trialed and now we know them as poor performers? How many were quickly named and are look-alikes? How many of these new quickly named Brugmansia are already forgotten? Those names are not officially ICRA registered names and they are free for other people to use if they want to. But few people will choose a used name. That name is forever wasted... forever forgotten. Please do not waste names!
5. Hybridizers and Seedling Parents, It is not a requirement that you distribute the seedling to others for evaluation purposes. As long as you personally properly evaluated it and several cuttings proved true to parent that’s all you really need.
If you choose to have a seedling evaluated by others it is not necessary that you distribute cuttings to more than 2 or 3 people. You’ll have better control over a few. Distributing a few cuttings to others is not necessary for evaluation purposes but knowing it performs well in all environments is icing on the cake!
6. If the seedling performs poorly in certain climates the hybridizer may decide not to release it. You might be requested to keep the seedling to yourself and to not distribute it. How the hybridizer wants to handle the properly trialed new seedling no matter if it passes or fails evaluations is up to the hybridizer.
Serious Hybridizers and Seedling Parents will want to be associated with quality new cultivars not a quantity of forgettable poor performers and look-alikes.
7. Hybridizers if you share cuttings or seeds that are valuable or sentimental to you in any way, please make sure the growers understand how special they are. Ask the seedling parents to please contact you before they destroy your plants.
Seedling Parents have the right to destroy undesirable seedlings without your permission.
8. Seedling Parents, it is not wise to quickly judge those first flowers. Please do not be in a hurry to destroy seedlings. It can take as long as 2 years before the true flowers show themselves.
9. Seed recipients should keep in touch with the hybridizers (when known) and give the hybridizers public credit at all times.
Do not feel obligated to keep in touch with businesses that sell the seeds unless they ask you to keep in touch. In cases of purchased seeds and/or unknown hybridizers, Seedling Parents will be treated as if they are the hybridizer. They may give their permission to release and register new cultivars. But Seedling Parents shall not be publicly credited as the hybridizer.
10. Hybridizers please be considerate of the Seedling Parents and the Evaluators of your seeds. Give them credit for growing out and evaluating the seedlings. A lot of time, work and expense is involved and they deserve recognition for their efforts!
11. Please do not ask for cuttings of new seedlings that have not been released yet. It puts the hybridizer, the seedling parent and the evaluator in an awkward and uncomfortable position. Sometimes hybridizers do not want to share with the world. They don’t want to sound mean or make anyone feel bad when they have to say no.
12. If we don't want the public involved in our personal hybridizing business then we should keep it out of the public’s view.
13. If you do not feel comfortable dealing with requests for your new seedling please make it clear to others from the very beginning that it’s not available at this time.
14. Released means the hybridizer gives their permission to freely distribute the seedling. Anyone who wants to can grow, sell, trade and hybridize that seedling.
The grower is released from all obligations to the hybridizer other than giving them public credit at all times.
15. Seedling Parents please do not use someone else’s unreleased seedling for hybridizing purposes without the hybridizer’s permission.
15. Anyone is allowed to register a name with the hybridizer’s consent
Bump
Thank you for bumping this thread up, Gretchen...very helpful at this time for me and I am sure others too.
Yes, thanks. I'll be getting some seeds shortly from others and was unsure how I would credit them if any grew out to be worthwhile.
I wish there was a way that we could keep certain threads handy...I just started saving the ones I want to use later, as Word docs, but that takes up a bunch of space.
Great information, Gretchen. Thanks for the bump. I know what you mean about saving these infomational threads. There is so much still to learn about Brugs!
Here is a post by gardenwife on a Daves Garden thread. http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/473475/ (You do have to customize your toolbar to get the folder there to begin with, but it works very well.)
Newark, OH
Zone 5b
Dec 30, 2004
3:55 AM
I agree with you, Shoe. If you put a folder on your favorites/bookmarks toolbar, you can just drag favorite URL's into that folder and they're always handy. This is the DG folder on my toolbar (I've renamed the bookmarks to names that make sense to me):
This message was edited Dec 30, 2004 4:56 AM
Click the image for an enlarged view.