This week I have been sending out tons and tons of my seeds. Some I remembered to say I will send them with the usual hybridizer's rights. I was thinking it would be nice if we could come to a consensus here on what those would mean to all and then do a gentleman's agreement on it. I understand ABADS is doing a similar thing now.
I usually send my seeds at my own expense unless someone has been so kind as to send me the stamps and envelope, which is very rare. I have never charged anyone for them.
Last year I sent tons out also, and never heard from anyone but a few! If I know you are reliable to report back, I usually will send you my better seeds. I try to share some of the better (more pink, LOL) seeds with all I share with, even newbies. I tend not to continue to send them to those that never look back.
When I send free seeds I really really want:
1. a report on the results. A picture is nice.
2. An offer from the seed grower to send me a cutting, (or 1 person I request to get one), if I want one. Usually I will not. I am drowning in brugs.
3. Consultation of whether to name it and what to name would be nice.
4. Credit as the hybridizer.
5. That you do not send my seeds on to a 3rd party that I do not know and agree to. And if you do, that they are labeled from me.
What do you all think???
the usual Hybridizer's rights .... your opinion
Kell, I think that's only fair :) You should get a full report, picture's, hybridizer's right's, and credit when and if wanting to share seeds in the future.
The only thing is....how did I miss out on an opportunity to grow some of your seeds out???? :(... Next question...is it too late to ask now? I would Love and be honored to if you have any left at all to share.
Thanks
Didn't want you to think I was ignoring you with your seeds, I haven't planted any of them yet, I am waiting closer to fall to plant, but I still have all of the seeds you sent me, and you will definitely get info on them when I do start them.
I keep all of my brug seed starting info here
http://www.louisianagarden.com/podners/
Some of those pages need to be updated, but I do keep good records on them.
Kell, I promise you will hear back from me.. lol I get too excited to not to say anything. Since you are having email problems through AOL, will you send me your addy through DG please?
Kell - I think that looks good and most people would be happy to adhere to those guidelines for a chance to grow some of your crosses. I think it helps to spell it out for folks that you share with so they know exactly whats expected. They don't know if you don't tell them...
I agree Kell That is what I do. Of course you know i have been emailing you and updating you on the seeds I just emailed you again just to let you know One has budded!!You are a very generous lady I am grateful to grow them for you.
Kell what do you think of adding something in there about if the cross isnt worthy of keeping, or its a look alike. Do you want the plant destroyed? Would it be ok for the seed grower to keep the cross for the genes, as long as it is promised to not be released?
Just a thought.
Kell, I think that's the least you should expect.
I've only sent seeds to one person (because only one person wanted some) and she has been wonderful. I feel very lucky.
Linda in WA
Kell,I think most people here are great about keeping hybridizers informed about the seedlings from their crosses
I know at least 50% of the seeds I have given out have been grown out and they have told me their results
One of these days someone will get something gorgeous from one of mine and they'll be from the other 50% with my luck....
Then I'll see it for sale and have to buy it!
LOL
Shelly in my opinion, if the hybridizer ask you to cull it, I think you should. It is hard to do I know, but I have faith in you, you can do it! (If all else fails tell your hubby to do it, that is how I started culling them)
It's the only right and honorable thing to do, Kell
I agree 1000%.... It's great to post this for a reminder and also for pointing out the guidelines for the next generation of brug growers...
I personally wouldnt have a problem doing whatever the hybridizer asked me to do with it (ahem within reason). I know there are reasons ones get culled/composted, and I 100% respect the work that people put into their babies, and the expectations that go along with them.
Thats a great thing to keep in mind about husbands doing the dirty work.. Im sure the day will come for me/and others when one will be awfully hard to get rid of. LOL as long as yall are here to say "You can do it" Im sure things will be fine.
This has never been a problem for me! The hybridizer has to receive the credit for the new hybrid.
Kell...I totally agree with you! And I'm really happy that you've posted this as I have not been familiar with Hybridizer's Rights!
Brugie probably wants to shoot me! LOL She was nice enough to send me seeds last fall. I still have some of her seeds and plan to start them later in the year. I tried her Versi Orange X Inca Sun and got good germination! Then Xander was born and we were away from the house so much I let them die. I felt terrible! But I know so much more now than back then! (And have tons more to learn too)
I agree 100%. Even those I had purchased I still feel they have the right to know, send cuttings too and name if lucky enough. It is the right thing to do.
Kell, I agree with your rules - they are certainly fair. It is important to give credit where credit is due and share with the person who was generous enough to give you the seeds they invested months in growing.
The only thing I would add is to get the consent of the hybridizer before selling the plant yourself. I'd be really annoyed if I gave someone a new plant and then found out they were selling it on eBay.
I am not sure about the culling issue - I think that if the grower really likes the plant they should be able to keep it, as long as they agree not to give the plant to anyone else (including friends and neighbors who might let the plant 'escape'). If I am ever lucky enough to grow anyone's seeds I will be very agressive about culling since I have a small yard and already way too many plants. Anything that does not appear to be an improvement over existing plants is going to get composted - we don't need another frosty pink. But if, for instance, I ended up with something that looked like Rosamond, I might want to keep it for myself even if it were never named. But I guess I would zap it anyway if the hybridizer were insistent. After all they are just plants. And of course if you end up with a plant that you don't particularly care for, but the hybridizer does like, you should send it back to them instead of just tossing it.
I've never grown any of your seeds, but you were kind enough to send me cuttings. They are growing and I'm keeping my own records, but as yet, no blooms. I don't know why I'm not getting blooms. Rosamond is about 8 ft and has Yed, several times I think I've seen small buds, but then they must fall off? I also have Maya and Charles Grimaldi from you and they have not bloomed yet either. I know you're not as interested in the named varieties as you are in your crosses.
If you have any seeds left, I promise I'll let you know what they do (but then you may rather send them to someone who can get blooms).
Linda
Oh Guys, I do not want these to be MY rules. I thought we coudl all debate it and come up with what we thought was fair. Those of you who are seed growers will one day soon be "hybridizers". So we all have a stake in this.
I just thought it would be best if we all as a community discussed what was fair so we all would know what was expected of us and what to expect back! As the summer ends more pods will get ripe and more sharing btween us all will happen!
Kell, I like your way of thinking... and how about if once we (mostly!) agree on a common set of guidelines, we ask Dave to post them in the FAQ or somewhere else they will be easy to find. Off-topic note: We should have a FAQ link per forum, so that everyone can better organize their FAQs. For instance, here in the brugs forum we could list general care and feeding of brugs, rooting, explain the Y, etc. I will suggest that on the DG forum.
With so many varied plant associations,groups,societies and such I have to believe someone has already addressed the situation with some kind of written documentation or policy which could be reviewed and used as a model.Just a thought.robert
I think that is fair and what we agreed to when you sent some to me. Mine will be grown this winter and I will be very happy to report their progress! :)
I used to live close to Oakes Daylily farm and when they culled their daylilies, they gave them away at their open house festival. The people they gave them to had to promise not to try to name them or market them. Just a thought.
Kelly
if i were lucky enough to get on your list
i would agree to all your requirements
Dick Strever
I agree that credit should be given to the hybridizer, regardless if the seeds were given or bought. The "right" thing to do is to offer a cutting if they are interested.
IMHO, there should be 2 sets of rules. If seeds are given freely, then the hybridzer should be given updates on the seedlings, pics, credit for hybridizing and first dibs on the cuttings. There should also be a mutual agreement on the name. Although, i dont think the hybridizer should be able to "control" what the grower does in the future.
If the seeds are bought, i think the only think that should be done, strictly common courtesy, is to acknowledge them as the hybridizer. The reason i say this is i dont call parks seeds and tell them how wonderful a plant is. I guess i feel if i BUY something, i've bought all rights to it and the person selling has lost all claim to it, except for the acknowledgement. The right thing to do would be to offer a cutting, but i dont agree with sending pics, updates etc.
Case in point, springson sent me seeds. I planted 15 or so, have the labels marked clearly, and i will eventually get around to taking pics. The rest of the seeds i gave to the BGI seedbank, total credit to springsong. When the seedlings start blooming ill keep her posted.
Early this year i bought 5 or 6 packs of seeds. When my check was cashed, and the seeds were sent, they became mine in all areas, except for being able to lay claim as hybridizer.
Some people may not agree with this, but it really is just my opinion.
Msjen brings up a good point on seeds that are purchased except I would suggest a slight refinement.
If someone purchases seeds from a wharehouse type outlet like Park seeds, or in other words, a place that is just selling seeds as a business, I agree they pass all rights away at the time of sale.
But in the case of a purchase of seeds from any members of the brug community who own an online store, the rule should fall under rule one.
These members are actively involved in the community from giving advice, sharing cuttings/seeds, being a good "neighbor", etc. The sale of their seeds is a direct result of the effort put forth in the hybridizing of brugs. The sales of those seeds help defray the immense cost of their pursuit of helping to discover and refine the future brugs we will all ultimately enjoy.
The cost of roughly thirty cents for a seed in this case should not be thought of as a reason to deny the hybridizers rights in the process. Besides, you won't find these crosses at places like Park seeds but only at Hybridizers who are innundated with extra seeds from growing out crosses.
It's the ultimate selfless act in that, instead of throwing out the seeds they can't grow out, they allow us to be able to continue the quest for a new hybrid. They don't worry about handing away the the rights of also being the grower as long as the brug line is enriched.
To me, that has them being firmly placed in rule one due to the fact, that without their effort at hybridizing, these crosses would not be readily available to the grower who does not specialize in hybridizing. JMHO
This message was edited Aug 7, 2004 8:18 AM
S_D,
i agree with what your saying, but what "rules" would govern the people that buy seeds online that are not a member of any group?
i'm sure people all over the country buy seeds that are not members of dg, abads, bgi or gardenweb. i would think that they wouldnt even care who the hybridizer was, much less give credit.
i'm really not trying to start controversy here. just wanted to state my opinion on free/bought seeds. Kell summed it up tho in here first posting, which i didnt really pick up on. She was asking for opinions on "free" seeds.
jen
p.s., and about the seeds i got earlier this year, no bother, lol, none have sprouted and they got all mixed up : P
Msjen, I wasn't thinking there would be a controversey, just a sharing of ideas. I'm sorry if it sounded that way....
You're right that alot of people who aren't part of any community might buy seeds without having any chance of input on the hybridizer. Those will always be "the ones that got away".
My comment was just on the community hybridizers and members. Maybe part of my feelings are based on guilt that maybe one day, I might get credit for growing a new hybrid without doing all the hard work...lol
I appreciated your earlier post and don't want you to see mine as a continuation of any disagreement from a recent thread. No hard feelings on my end.... :)
Kell your rules are fine. I don't think that is to much to ask for. I'm going to start mine now. I have seeds popping up almost over night right now as compared to a month under nights and heat in domed trays in early spring with mostly failures. I keep my GH at growing temps during winter. Min temp. 50 at night. Looking forward to recieving them.
saying "whew" and wiping brow, lol.
I really didnt mean to start a controversy either. just trying to look at all sides.
Jen
Very sensible to establish these guidelines.
I am not currently even trying to do anything with seeds; cuttings are a challenge for me at the moment.
Kell, I agree with your rules for fairness to the hybridizer's . I also agree it should be written for all and expected by the
hybridizer's. If we're given the honor of growing out someone's seeds, we need to keep them posted as to how they are growing, blooming etc. and they should have the say over whether they name them, let you name them or cull them.
I think those are only fair guidelines.
Sandy
Maybe it should be the policy of the hybridizer to set the boundaries of the control of the seeds they sell.....
If the hybridizer states their policy ,there should be no question whether the seeds are given or bought,and you will know what is expected
Some commercial place would not state a policy on the control of the seeds,heck,they probably have no idea who grew the parents and just buy them in bulk
Where serious hybridizers will have put a lot of thought,time and energy into making the cross....
i was lucky last year to get some seeds and i killed some with love and now cant find any of the rest. wondering if still good if i do now that i have moved. hehe
i think its only fair to let people know. i wrote Kell last year so happy i had a seedling. then it died and i cried.
its theres first and like any good momma they want to know whats happening with their babies.
i think its only right in what you ask. Imzadi
I don't grow brugs-- I'm a daylily hybridizer-- but I think the different views on the handling of seeds between the two is interesting.
People freely buy and sell daylily seeds on the auctions, and as soon as the seeds leave the seller's posession, they have lost control and all rights to the seeds. The American Hemerocallis Society asks only for the "originator" of a daylily when it is registered, that being the person who has ~posession of the entire cultivar~ when it blooms for the first time. Some folks do mention the hybridizer when they register a daylily, but they are not required by AHS to do so, and the hybridizer of said seeds cannot require them to do so as a condition of the sale/trade.
Oakes Daylily was able to put restrictions on the seedlings they sold or gave away because they had the whole seedling in their garden when it first bloomed. Even so, I doubt that the people at Oakes would know if someone registered a seedling they got from them after six or seven years of growth in the purchaser's garden.
I DO like to see pictures of the seedlings that bloom from the seeds I send if anyone cares to share them, but that's up to the grower. Badseed is always very good about sharing seedling pictures.
Personally, I think I'd get a headache trying to keep track of all the daylily seeds I have sold or given away! I just don't want to work that hard.
Thanks Indashade, i THINK thats what i was trying to say ; )
jen
Inda, there is a big difference between the DL and brug worlds. Right now... brugs are so new in the states. Where daylilies have tens of thousands of hybrids available, ... brugs only have a few hundred, if that. Up until a few years ago there was only a couple varieties available here. Now the government has enforced restrictions on any imports so we are still quite limited with when it comes to cultivars. I imagine that some day... people will not be so uptight about their crosses. But these dayz people want to keep a close eye on what their seedlings produce.
I also should add... I've given hundreds of dayliliy seeds out and feel very fortunate if someone sends a picture. I figure as long as someone gives them a chance I'm happy and they can handle the seedlings anyway they see fit.
I am a little more cautious about sending brug seeds out. I've shared plenty but I'm a little more protective of the better crosses... and I try to share them with people that will keep in touch. Some day the brug world may be flooded with as many hybrids as the DL world is... but we have a long, long way to go. I'm sure things will change as more people grow them and more & more become available.
Oh I am not to sure the 2 worlds are so different Sue after visiting the Daylily forum this week! LOL
Indashade, what I am talking about here is an gentlemen's agreement between the grower and the hybridizer ON DAVE'S FORUM. I do not think we have to follow what daylily people do.
If the grower does not want to abide by this agreement, then I want to know up front and I will find someone else to give my seeds to. I know I have done this back to everyone for whom I grew out seeds. Except for some I got the first year that were of crosses that I did not ask for and were seeds that I felt would not be worth the time, money and effort to grow. But if I passed them along, I made sure the hybridizer's name was on all of them!
The whole brug growing is very time consuming and I personally want to know what my seeds have done. If the grower rather have no ties, no problem, but then I will give my seeds to some one else who thinks like I do!
I am giving a gift with strings! LOL
So Sue, I understand from reading on the daylily forum how easy daylilies are to grow. That they do not need much care. Is that true? Then they really are so much different then brug growing which is such a time consuming hobby. Too bad we could not figure out how to get a daylily standard to grow! LOL
The nicest thing about daylilies is they are hardy!!! That alone makes a big difference to me. They're also less prone to disease and pests... there's a few problems but they don't even compare with brugs.
I'm not one to get the newest and latest daylilies... but I think if I spent 2 or 3 hundred dollars on a fancy new hybrid... I'd be a little stingy with seeds from the crosses I made with it. I wouldn't send them out for postage only never to hear about them again. It's the same thought with brugs. People want to kow what their babies produce.... At this point in the game anyway. Down the road things may change. Especially as new hybrids become more and more available.
This message was edited Aug 8, 2004 3:27 PM