disturbing news for US gardeners

Wasn't the "Tumble weed" imported from Russia (??) to keep the soil in the desert areas from blowing away? Then they found the roots were too close to the surface and the plant blew away in the bad winds we have there?? Jo

Squirrel stew !!

My mother's recipe

I can taste it already:

Catch grey squirrel
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Serve with potatos

Now come on!!! I can't write a recipe like that ... there are younguns here ... although I would love one ... heh . heh . heh


Wintersquirrel

Hey!! wake up lazybones!! ... end of hibernating grey squirrel (Wintermoor lets out a slow and satisfied hhhmmmmmmmm):-D

Yes Jo, Tumbleweed did come from Siberia.

Agricultural, and landscape planning gone a wee bit wrong I think eh?

Don't worry, the cowboy films made a mint out of it.

MINT!! well there is another of those spready things: "Tchooius wrigleyii", a terrible spreader of jawlock, especially amongst Homo sapiens (Americanus minor), and Homo sapiens (Hip-hoppus coolius), but used by Greeks a lot in everyday cooking, although not today since I had Mousaka.

HoHum


Wintermoor

LOL! Yes, I'll be contemplating squirrel recipes in the spring, when those little buggers start taking interest in the fresh bulb shoots poking thru.....

Anyway, so, yes, discussions such as this always cause me to rethink my own convictions, to reassess them for logic & accuracy, just to be certain of why I feel or believe the way I do. Sometimes I argue from a position of passion anyway, but it is far more effective to just be logical & reasonable. It's nice to discuss with someone who is also being logical & reasonable, so I don't just get ticked & feisty! :)

So...I'm having troubles getting on to the NISC website to double check, but I thought that certain parts of the white list policy were already in effect? I guess I'm wrong about that!

Anyway, so my thought in response to your analogies (which are rather intense, btw) is that to put it in that perspective, it would simply be impossible for any govt agency to enact such a thing. They'd virtually be putting a million -- nay, billion -- dollar industry OUT of business. I mean, even the President has gardens! I don't know the actual statistics of gardeners, but heck, I rarely walk past a yard or business that doesn't have some plants in it -- frequently annuals, many of which are exotics. And so this is highly unlikely to happen in capitalist America, one of the main reasons that I have difficulty accepting that interpretation of the NISC's proposed policies or intentions.

I don't know, Zany. I'm not affiliated with the NISC or any other govt agency, for that matter, so I can't say for sure what they intend, I can only read & research & interpret, same as you. I guess we'll see.

I have a cookbook with a whole section on squirrel. Got it as a wedding present. I don't know where they thought I would go squirrel huntin' in Califotnia.

We have losts of invasive grasses here that were brought to feed cattle and there is no geting rid of it. YOu would have to burn down the whole state. Hmmmmm. might cut down on the gubernatorial candidates at that........

I know what you mean :~) I can be a bit intense. But I do welcome disenting opinions. There is a fine line between discussion/debat and argumentative fighting. I TRY not to cross that line....but if I step on toes here I will appologize and back off.

As far as I know the program has not yet been accepted nor implemented. But the fact it is impractical and extremely costly has never detered our legislators. After all what is a few more billion dollars in deficit to us! (lol)ok that was sarcastic but the legisators bring out the cynic in me. It is not their intent that bothers me on this issue so much as the possible effects it can have that were not intended but could happen non the less. And with so many Environmentalists pressing to overthrow our capitalism and replace it with socialism it is a real concern that I cannot take lightly.

After my last post I realized I may have taken this discussion into th forbidden territory of politics. If so, Dave, please accept my appologies and feel free to either remove my comments or contact me and I will edit them out.

Wintermoor - The brown garden snail was imported to the U.S. in about 1850, not far from me in Santa Cruz, CA. Some poor sole missed his escargot. We have a native banana slug, which is really an intriguing gem of an animal. www.blevinsphoto.com/bananaslug.htm has a really nice shot. They have a breathing hole, not unlike a whale. I remember when I was about 10, mom almost picked one up at night, thinking it was one of dad's cigars in a cellophane wrapper.
I guess Santa Cruz is trying to make up for the mistake by having the indigenous Banana Slug as it's mascot. http://www.ucsc.edu/about/campus_mascot.html But we still have the pernicious snail devouring everything in site (at least when I am not pouring salt on them!)

can we hand back Giant Hogweed and that Imaptiens. Full of the cold and can be bothered thinking of botanical names just now.

Zany, the only issue I would take with your statement is that it isn't "so many" environmentalists -- it's a few of the extremists. You shouldn't judge all by the actions of a few. Most of what I was taught in college (just shy of a BS in conservation ecology when baby arrived; switched into Hort after that) was about sustainability -- living in the world we're in, but in a way that protects its future and our OWN future (cuz we're all part of the web). I certainly couldn't imagine this country without capitalism -- socialism may be optimal for very small groups, but a very small group America is not. Yes, that's my own opinion of course, but I've met & am friends with many environmentalists, and few would prefer to see this country as you suggest they would.

My statement above, naming capitalist America, was to emphasize the point that, in our country anyway, big business is of BIG significance. Our country does not support the annihilation of a major industry. Thus, I do not see a white list being used in the manner you describe.

: )

Heracleum mantegazzianum Giant Hogweed back to Asia
Polygonum cuspidatum Japanese Knotweed back to Japan?
Imaptiens glandulifera Himalayan Balsam back to the Himalayas

and a few others invading the UK http://www.appliedvegetationdynamics.co.uk/IAAPwebsite/plantsppindex.asp

Here in Missouri there was cultavar of fescue introduced in the mid to late '50s that was supposed to be the answer to drought problems in pasturelands. I think it is the old Kentucky 32. Anyway, it is terribly invasive and quite hard to erradicate. I have to admit that we do have a green lawn when many others have brown ones, and the seed is a cash crop for many farmers. But this plant can be a problem in garden areas. It also seems to be affected by a nematoe that causes it to have ergotomine in the plant which causes cows, etc. to abort, lose circulation in the extremities, and stop giving milk. It also seems to get into the milk the cows give and pass on to the calves nursing causing problems in them. I learned this the hard way. What to do? Keep it controled in pastures with herbicides and plants that are aggressive enough to compete with it.
As for Loosestrife, we have lots of Pink Morden in our area and it is NOT an invasive plant. The old orange daylilies and some types of iris are more invasive than the Pink Morden.
I too am very concerned about the interference of our government in the garden/yard of citizens. Especially with our involvement in the One World Government movements such as WTO, WHO, etc. I don't want the rules of some other nation used to control us and that is just where we are headed folks. In case you don't know it, the Men In Black as they are called are not always U.S.A. troops. Many of them are from other nations and are being trained here in house to house search and arrest among other skills of war and citizen control.

Rubystar, you may be right about it being the extremist environmentalists who are advocating anarchy and socialism and they may indeed be the minority. I couldn't say. But in this area there are so many extremists that they make it seem that the whole movement has gone in that direction. And surfing the net the majority of environmental links tend to take you to extremeist sites, many of which seem reasonable on the surface. But when you get deeper into them, their underlying principle frequently turns out to be a socialist agenda, cloaked beneath the surface.

As for the Big businesses in our nation, many of them are leaving because of restrictions and many more are dying. And any business that is based upon the use of our natural resources is threatened with extinction, as under a guise of sustainability, more and more areas are made off limits to any logging, mining or development. These groups are taking the pendulum from the old attitude of use it without regard, right past the use it wisely and sustainably approach, to do not use it at all. And these same groups are very much in favor of the White list approach.

But I admit that living in an area where our natural resources are historically mismanaged I may indeed be seeing more of the extreme elements here. When I talk to them I find they are coming here from far and wide and their support comes from donations made by people who do not know that their goal is to remove our freedoms and undermine our social structure. And frankly, they Scare me!

I also know many horticulturists, biologists, timber analysts, geologists and others in the scientific community that believe as I do in a sustainable approach to environmental concerns. They dedicate their professional lives to teaching businesses and the public better ways to manage our dwindling resources and ways to correct the damages we have created on the planet. But they are often treated with scorn from the extremists as sellouts to business because they will not advocate the extreme solutions. And none of them has ever told me they favor a white list approach during our discussions of the matter.


Mark, if you figure out a way to rid us of the Japanese Knotweed please let me know! That stuff is a sonstant battle for me!

leaflady, I had not heard of the Fescue problem. It sounds like it could be devastating.

Yes, leaflady, that anecdotal evidence of Pink Morden is fairly commonly used in support of that plant....

And the experts say: http://www.ducks.ca/purple/abstracts/abstrct4.html

As for your last part, well, I personally can't relate to that.

Mark & Zany, I want to emphasize that not only exotics have the potential to be invasive. Natives can also become invasive, given the right (er, wrong, rather!) set of circumstances. In truth, I'm not aware that anyone has determined the formula for a plant becoming invasive, which is, of course, support against the white list, Zany. :) But I do think that "cursory" (as one ISAC member put it) risk assessments are not too much to ask or expect, in attempting to curtail further biological invasives from being introduced. Consider that in reality such policies will probably have the most impact on govt itself, since they are the ones that import insect or plant species on a large scale to deal with some local (or national) threat. (erosion control, agricultural pests, etc)

So, their website is up today, and I will concede that, in rereading it, the power they've given themselves sounds mighty godlike, and I understand your fears. But, with all the rest that I've read (on both sides), and with all of the fearsome legislation that has been passed thru the decades and NOT resulted in the end of the world or democracy or capitalism, I still genuinely don't believe that things will transpire in the manner that you suggest. Have to deal with some red tape to import new plants? Probably yes. Have to consider a little carefully about the plants you want to bring in in the first place? Sure -- but how is it wrong to expect that, given our environmental situation? But inspectors destroying our gardens willy-nilly because we're growing plants not on some list? No, I don't believe that could ever happen.

I am aware that native plants can be invasive and that is another issue. But I fear any law that gives such far reaching power over us that it could be used to effectively stop all progress and as a tool to control us to the point of extremes.

That it is not their intention does not disallow the fact that it gives them the ability. And as I said earlier, power once given is too tempting and will eventually be misused. They need to rethink this and make it more acceptable if they can. If they can't limit the possible and probably misuse then I will continue to argue against it.

As with any law once enacted it is to be enforced as it is actually written and not as it was intended. Or, "the path to destruction is paved with good intentions" Under this White list it could happen. An over eager or power filled fanatic inspector would be within the LAW to do exactly that even though inspectors in other areas were taking a more rational approach.

Why not make the law as it is written more rational and eliminate that possibility? Why spend billions of dollars to implement a new and frightening law when we have laws in place now that would be efective if the funds were made available to enforce them and to fund further research?

edited to break it into smaller segments :~)

This message was edited Jul 10, 2005 4:40 PM

Zany, you posted while I was typing, so I will add a comment about logging, mining & development. I disagree with your assessment of that & of the state of big business too, but that's neither here nor there. It's blessedly normal to disagree about those things! And I can't know what things are like in CA cuz I've never even been there. But I do want to point out that, aside from the preservationists -- which is an extremist position that I find to be ideal yet unrealistic -- conservationists fully support use & sustainable logging/mining of the land. That is part of the definition of that word "conservation." But there is a world of difference between sustainable logging & clearcutting -- and of course you know which is easier to do & cheaper as well! We are, unfortunately, a culture which takes the easy, cheaper way first & foremost, regardless of the consequences. That last part, "regardless of the consequences" has been the policy for far too long. It is high time we start considering the consequences of our actions, before we perform them. I do this in my life, and it doesn't stop me from being successful or from growing a beautiful garden or whatever. We teach this to our children.... should this not apply to ourselves as well? This doesn't mean abstaining from using lands or from importing exotics, it means thinking about the consequences instead of just doing what we want because we want to.

I certainly don't like extreme positions -- that should be fairly obvious by now, lol. But I think they are, by far, the easier roads to take. The middle ground is far more challenging to maintain, since you really have to consider all points of view, even if you disagree with them. It's a whole lot more work too, since you have to do your homework. There's all sorts of support for an extremist point of view. Wading thru the extremes to find the truth is a tricky task, at best.

Good luck to us all, I guess!
: )

here in the UK experiments are being done where herbicide is being injected into the hollow stems of Japanese Knotweed. This reservoire then spreads around the whole colony

Mark, I will have to try injecting the knotweed since brush on applications are not having any effect and spraying would harm the surrounding plants.

Rubystar, it sounds like we agree on what we want to see happen but differ in our ideas on how to achieve it. The majority of the environmental movement here has swung from conservationism to preservationism and they are the same ones who are pushing for a socialist government. The smaller fringe groups are even more radical and are seeking total anarchy. If I were to put myself under one of these labels it would be conservationism. But when I research politically active groups in this area the ones who have Conservation in their pamphlets are usually pushing a preservationist policy.

The old ways of destruction and mayhem for greed have left us a huge mess to cleanup and scars upon the landscape that will never heal completely. But that does not mean that through conservation we cannot or should not continue to progress and wisely use our resources in a sustainable manner. It does mean that companies and individuals must be governed by restrictions and that the restrictions need to be properly administered and enforced. But it also means that the restrictions be realistic to the future of the people and not shut them out from all useage of those resources. The middle of the road may be a harder way to travel but it seems to be the only practical way to go.

Hey Mark, have I bored you with this yet? LOL I do get wordy don't I!

This message was edited Jul 10, 2005 2:26 PM

no not bored yet but some of you seem to be practising to write a book! LOL

Hah! Before I write a book I need to learn to spell!

I havent seen any mistakes

Have to work at the BG today so no time to chat, but yes, I agree with you Zany!

And sorry, Mark, I've always been verbose.... I've never enjoyed the "short & sweet" version of an explanation, too easy to misunderstand! Besides, I'm in love with the language.

;)

And so, as our verbose chatters return to their off line lives, we end this chapter of "The White List Debate" as Rubystar returns to work and Zanymuse shuffles off into the sunrise....and at last .....someone else can get a word in edgewise!

Bravo! Encore!
LOL!

This has been a good discussion and I've enjoyed reading it. A very good example of how to disagree with respect and civility.
Plus, quite educational, too.

Cheri'