How to pronounce the 'x' in hybrid names?

Hi:

I can't figure out how to pronounce the 'x' in hybrid names?
e.g. Acer rubrum x A. saccharinum = Acer x freemanii, etc.

Do you say "times" "by" "eks"??

Thanks!

I don't know what Stern says about it, but I'm not sure that you do pronounce the X. If you do I think it's 'ex'

I would think that the 'x' should be pronounced as 'crossed with', going by some commonsense!

Great question, farmboy! My favorite perennial is Pardancanda (candy lily) and the proper name is actually:

X Pardancanda

as it is a bigeneric hybrid. So, I would pronounce that "eks". Guessing that would follow through consistently.

How's life for a farmboy in SF? Welcome to davesgarden! John

Stearn appears silent on the subject of pronouncing the "x" in his Dictionary of Plant Names for Gardeners, and I don't have his Latin Dictionary handy.

Here's an excerpt from Floridata's website:

"Naming Hybrids
Hybrids, or crosses between different species, are given unique names that are preceded with an X: Forsythia X intermedia. The X is not pronounced, but replaced with "the hybrid species." In this case “Forsythia, the hybrid species intermedia.” The name tells us that Forsythia X intermedia is a hybrid between two species, but, unfortunately, it doesn't tell us which two species. You can also have hybrid genera such as X Amarygia, pronounced, “the hybrid genus Amarygia.” (It was created by crossing Amaryllis belladonna and Brunsvigia orientalis.)"

For the record, I've never actually said "I grew Lobelia hybrid species vedraiensis this year!" or "Last year I grew out hybrid genus Pardancanda from seeds that John gave me."

But I have told people that I'm growing Lobelia vedrariensis and Pardancanda, which I list it in my journal as Lobelia x vedrariensis and X Pardancanda.

I always heard it this way.....L'Amour x Buttewrfly....L'Amour crossed with Butterfly....makes sense x of crossing.

"eyes"

Terry

Prior to work this morning I read through some of my books and that bears out the no pronuncition of the x you found, they said nothing about 'the hybrid species...' though, ... interesting because a hybrid cannot be a species. (This was pointed out to me by two National Collection holders after a query regarding hybrids and I used the term)


Dinu and Eyes

As Terry has pointed out in her post, the reason it isn't pronounced 'crossed' is because there is no information on what they are crossed with. For instance, Digitalis x mertonensis is a cross between Digitalis grandiflora and D. purpurea, x mertonensis in no way reflects the parentage and therefore the 'x' cannot be taken as 'crossed with'.

Now in the case of clones, cultivars and grexes, the x is sometimes used in the name for an unnamed seedling to denote the parentage. sometimes you'll see it in parentheses after the name e.g. Bogatum 'Treat-time' (caninum x cibum).

This message was edited Tuesday, Jul 29th 3:27 AM

Baa, that is interesting : "a hybrid cannot be a species"; perhaps that seems obvious, yet it appears to me there have been natural hybrids granted species status.

Wow: thanks for all your responses.

I read somewhere (after posting) that one can say: "The hybrid of...and..." which sidesteps the thorny issue of species.

Wish you could just say the x, and think maybe I will.

John (Pardancanda): hard being a farmboy in SF: nothing to do on the weekends except tend my tiny backyard shade garden and head out to our lovely arboretum. Wanting to move somewhere with a little more space.

Jonathan

Farmboy....you should consider Arizona......We have lots of wide open spaces...out here in the boonies where I live you have to have four acres to build a home on......so...I have 4 acres of mesquite trees. 5 little trees that I water, and 2 tomato plants...on the porch! Until I get a f3enced in area to garden in I refuse to feed the Javalinas anymore! Jo

Since we have a population of 60,261 here at DG I think we should just decide how we want to deal with the x and outnumber the gardening authorities. I think we should just say the x (pronounced eks) and be done with it. It is hard enough trying to say the latin names without adding anymore to 'em.

Pardancanda

You're right, I should have said 'Man-made hybrids'.

NoH2O

But not pronouncing the x isn't adding more *G*. Besides it's up to you how you want to say it, no one has an authority on pronunciation, just a preferred way and that differs. Some of the pronunciations in the Botanary for instance are different to my own, I don't lose sleep over it as long as I'm understood when I'm talking about the plants.

Baa, I guess I just don't like inconsistency! It seems to me that the 'x' is there for a reason, i.e. it is giving additional information about the plant in question. If you are reading the name, you get the information. If someone pronounces the name and doesn't say 'eks' or 'the hybrid of' how do you know it's there? I am glad Farmboysf asked the question. I have been wondering the same thing myself for years but everyone I have asked had no clue!! It is kind of like the pronunciation of clematis. I have lived in Ohio, California and Seattle and I always heard it pronounced clem-A-tis. A few years ago I learned that the correct pronunciation is CLEM-atis. However if I am talking to someone who mispronounces it and then I pronounce it correctly I feel as if I am correcting them and I don't like that. I don't think they do either!! A minor issue in the larger scheme of things, just one of those little annoyances I can't figure out how to deal with. (You don't have to tell me, I know I over-analyze things!! LOL)

The x is there for a reason, it tells us it's a hybrid of known species. As Terry has quoted Stern in the first page of the Botanary, it's essentially a written language. There are too many irrelevant arguments on pronuniation .. who knows how the Romans or Ancient Greeks said their words? We don't and those 2 languages are the basis of all scientific names.

I'd be very surprised if you said Tomato or Oregano (o-re-garn-o) the same way as me, so what is the correct pronunciation? Neither way is correct, both are understandable to the other if a little odd when heard for the first time.

As it happens I say clemma-TIS *G*

Meant to add

If you want consistency then taxonomy isn't the place to look for it ;)

This message was edited Saturday, Jul 26th 1:05 PM

Oh Baa you have just added a NEW pronunciation to clematis. I don't know if I can take it. LOL

NoH2O we had a garden center for years and you wouldn't believe how many different ways people can pronounce clematis! Or Peony, alyssum, vinca. As long as they got close I knew what they were talking about.
I was taking a shortcourse once and the room got into a discussion about pseudacorus. I thought those adults were going to fight over a plant name!
edited because I can't spell it either!

This message was edited Sunday, Jul 27th 11:51 PM

I guess if you add all the accents from around the country and around the world it really makes it impossible. Maybe we should stick to the written word and not try to pronounce anything at all!! LOL I do think that botany is the only science where pronunciation is so wildly varied. I wonder why that is?

Sometimes the X is put to indicate it is a bi-generic cross, whether naturally-occurring or done by human. One of my favorite plants, X Heucherella is a cross between Heuchera and Tiarella. Usually it is written without the leading X, but whenever I have encountered it in a publication meant to be authoritative, it is always present. But in the many times I have heard of/spoken of this plant, the X is always omitted unless I happen to be feeling a little silly that day ;D Then I say 'by heucherella' or maybe 'cross heucherella'. But only to people who know what I am talking about ;D

I cannot find anything about this subject in my quick search through 'Botanical Latin', got to make a deeper search later.

I apologise most sincerely to everyone who found my second post offensive.

Regards
Baa

Hey Baa, I didn't find your second post offensive at all, I found it informative. It just made me question even more why the 'x' isn't indicated in some way when the name is spoken. But hey, that's just me. My therapist is always telling me I over-analyze everything...but we're workin' on it!! LOL

Baa, I'm sorry if anyone thought your post was offensive, but I don't see how. I just re-read it and still don't see anything that could offend. You did a great job of clarifying why using "crossed" creates an even bigger mouthful, after giving a taxonomist's counterpoint to the excerpt I posted.

I'm enjoying this interesting and informative thread. It made me realize I hadn't given much thought to pronouncing (or not) the "x".

Terry I agree with you. I didn't find it offensive and I hadn't really thought about the "x".
When I'm talking about a brug seedling that I've hybridized I write it like this "Brug A X Brug B" but if I'm talking to someone and they want to know what it is I say "Brug A crossed to Brug B".
If I am talking to someone about Lupy's plant X-heucherella I'll just say heucherella and sometimes add that it's a cross between heuchera and tiarella. Sometimes there is no need to add anything more because I know I lost them as soon as I used the botanical name for the plant, lol.

I found a passage in 'Botanical Latin: 4th Ed -- Wm. Stearn' that I will excerpt from here:

'The name of a bigeneric hybrid group corresponding to a genus is formed by combining the names of the two parent genera into a single word not exceeding 8 syllables...

'This method of designating bigeneric hybrid groups was introduced by Maxwell Masters in 1872 when he coined the name X Philageria veitchii for the hybrid between Lapageria rosea and Philesia magellanica. E.A. Bowles suggested an alternative method, namely, to abandon all attempts to make combinations of the names of three or more genera and instead to form arbitrary equivalent names by attaching the termination -ara to the name of a person. This was officially acepted at the Stockholm Botanical Congress of 1950.'

There is still nothing about pronouncing the 'X' or substituting a phrase in its place, but I found something that I haven't seen before: using a + to indicate a grafted bigeneric hybrid. Examples given are + Laburnocytisus for Cystisus + Laburnum.

But there is a wonderful passage in a different part of the same book about pronunciation. To excerpt again:

'How they are pronounced really matters little provided they sound pleasant and are understood by all concerned.'

He then goes on to quote Erasmus (I haven't read Erasmus since high school! Nice to see him again! It was his influence that led to my goofy sense of humor.)

In classical Latin, there was really no word 'X' The letter did occur, but except for the Roman numeral X (ten) it wasn't a word. There was no idea of how plants were pollinated, so the concept of crossing species or varieties just didn't come up. According to an informal poll of former Latin pupils, the letter was pronounced very much like the Greek Chi.

Since the early hybridizers invented the Chi Square, that does make some sense about how it might have been pronounced, but to say "Kkkcccchhh salpliglossis" would NOT be pleasant to listen to ;D

Baa, I didn't find any of your comments offensive either. I have a variety of accents, depending on circumstances.

Perhaps you have some acquaintance with Allen Paterson, the horticulturist? He gave a speech to a US group, the Perennial Plant Association. He spoke of hem-err-ROC-uh-lis. Of course all these professional American plant people in the audience immediately figured that they had been saying it wrong all their life and were secretly horribly embarrassed -- an emininet British horticulturalist must be correct! But he was just making a subtle point, that there is no "correct" way to say a new word that exists in a dead language. As long as we understand each other, that is all that counts :)

IF I'm discussing Geraniums verbally I would say Geranium 'Johnsons Blue' is a pratense himalayense cross but on paper I would write pratense x himalayense

That particular statement from Stearn helped me move past my abject embarrassment at my ignorance on pronunciation, and spurred me on to dive into Botanary. (I felt so indebted to his pragmatic philosophy on the subject, I quoted him in the introduction!)

With the help of Baa and a few other DG'ers whose efforts made Botanary a reality, I hope we're bolstering the confidence of gardeners to take a stab at SAYING the botanical names. I enjoy seeing the new words in each night's newsletter words, although I sometimes squirm as I wonder if everyone is being too polite to point out the occasional (frequent?) faux pas they see :)

Perhaps the thoughts and ideas presented here belong in Botanary and/or Garden Terms, and the thread eventually in the FAQ forum?

It's an almost trivial question, but as the posts have shown, there's an entire language structure that surrounds this silent letter, and the more we know about the language and its rules, the more fluent and confident we'll become in using it, (or even choosing to disregard it on occasion :)

LL: 'How they are pronounced really matters little provided they sound pleasant and are understood by all concerned.'
......I love it!! The author of this quote would make a great world leader!

Terry: 'Perhaps the thoughts and ideas presented here belong in Botanary and/or Garden Terms, and the thread eventually in the FAQ forum?'....I agree with you, I think it's a great idea.

'as the posts have shown, there's an entire language structure that surrounds this silent letter, and the more we know about the language and its rules, the more fluent and confident we'll become in using it, (or even choosing to disregard it on occasion :)'....Well said.