oh Liz, I noticed a question above. You asked about a .org suffix. That doesn't mean anything, it's simply the URL they bought. BGI is also a .org, (as well as .us) it used to have restrictions, it doesn't anymore.
http://www.brugmansias.org
http://www.brugmansia.us
New ABADS website!
Luminosa is mentioned as being a parent of several hybrids of mine,Rosa Zaubers parents also. I mentioned this only at daves and in the PDB.
Hey look... Idamood is even on there - LOL!!
I'd really hate to think that we will all be afraid to post any pictures or information about our personal brugs here or send out seeds from our crosses. This is not a good thing.
Maybe I'm overreacting - maybe I'm not.
I just sent out about 18 packages of seed - sure hope they don't end up somewhere without my permission.
Would ya all be as upset if it was all in a list... rather than a gallery? I'm sorry ... but I'd like to see all the information about all the brugs known... gathered in one site. Whether it be ABADS, BGI, or here. Or on all if them.
An union logo comes to my mind. "You don't have to like the union to be a member. You just have to like yourself." I'm thinking ... "You don't have to like VH (or ABADS) ... to love brugs". I hope these two seperate brug communities will someday find a lttle peace and be able to co-exist together.
When I went to the link tiG sent me to, I see the Eric's name beneath 'Amber Rose', along with the parentage of the hybrid; there's no photo associated with this name. (There is also a link to Cala's Tropicals; presumably Cala is selling this particular hybrid.) The parentage information and the hybridizer's name are not protected by copyright. As long as the hybridizer has made known the parentage of the hybrid, it is permissable for anyone to quote it wherever they wish to.
So one more time - ya'll will have to speak slowly and use little words for my benefit ;-) Are any of the photos used on the ABADS site photos from the Plants Database? And of those that are on the PDB, were they used without permission?
I just noticed.....A simple thing...they are selling Seed. Therefore they are in Violation because their Website is for a Profit, and for their benefit. Even if it be...for just a few seeds. They are profiting by Posting Pictures and Information of yours to create interest, therefore it is for their own benefit.
I would send the Webmaster an E-Mail and ask them to remove your Pictures and Information...Because you were not asked, nor did you give permission, for the Items that are Posted to be used on their Website.
I am going to try to find some direct information about Website Copyrights that I can link to. When I find it I will post here.
If your Pictures are Posted, or Discription and Information on Crosses is Posted. I would definately send the Webmaster an E-Mail immediately explaining the position this has put you in....And to tell them that you are 'NOT' Allowing or Giving Permission for this information to be Published. A simple 'E-Mail Request' to 'REMOVE' as in the above Post I made. Goes a long way.
ZZ.
Liz,
you are right. Watching this all I think I never will talk about my breedings.
I am glad that I can not post seeds or cuttings to USA.
It seems to me that abads is trying to help some sellers ( have a look at living and dead links ( URLS)) and making some special people angry.
I am missing the parents from the Preissel, Kirchner abel and dreckmann crossing. They dont know?....LOL
Just say your neighbor wanted to make his garden look better by raking up all the leaves. It would be common courtesy to ask you first before he went into your garage and took your rake. I know, sounds simple, but that's the way I see it.
I don't understand the entire history of the ABADS/BGI issue, but I know enough - I think - to know this is upsetting for many of you. But I would urge you to allow the copyright issues to be handled by the administration at Dave's Garden, and that means we have to have facts in hand before we take any corrective measures.
As I said in my post above - my understanding of copyright laws is this: it is not a violation of copyright to post plant names or hybridization information. Once the hybridizer divulges this information publicly, it is available and permissible for any and all to speak/write/record.
Photos are another story. As is textual information (such as a plant description that you've written), neither of which can be used on another website without permission, especially when a website is copyrighted (as is DG and the PDB.) Individuals may "borrow" images and text for their own personal webpages, but the webmaster of the original image/text has the right to demand that it be removed, if they find it and wish to exercise that right.
This is a painful lesson on why we monitor and occasionally remove content submitted to the PDB. The same rules that protect your work also protects the work of others; a well-meaning person who plagiarizes a plant description or copies a great photo without permission is in violation of these rules.
Yes, good words, LIZ.
If abads would have had good thoughts with sharing informations each other. THEY WOULD HAVE HAD ASKED before stealing informations from other websides.
I am so angry because of Monikas plants and my two, I am not myself now.
GL
It has become common in Germany by hybridizers without ideas or knowledge, to copy successful crosses of other hybridizers and present the results as their own achievment.
I agree with Ludger - where is the information about the Preissel and Kirchner - Abel hybrids?
I won't post anymore info on my crosses till this is all straightened out.Like Monika said...when we the hybridizers do all the work to create new kinds then just pass out all the data we get ripped off.All hybrids should be listed..the data is safe with me about MY hybrids.....this is getting out of hand.
Yes, it is getting pretty disgusting.
I have decided to post no more pics or information on any NEW brugs.....only those already named varieties.
Also, I am presently in the process of trying to determine if anyone who has sent me seeds or seedlings that I am raising now has reserved naming and patent rights to any brugs resulting from them that I grow out. No such reservations were expressed to me at the time I received them, but I am checking with the senders via email right now to ascertain their thoughts, and any seeds with such reservations will be promptly thrown in the garbage.
I am old fashioned enough to believe that any naming or patent reservations should be made known and agreed to at the time of the transaction.
Iam glad not to have talked too much about my HG and Rothkirch pollinations.
I am really sad that abads has done so....it was sowing out misstrusting.
Hope very hope that we here and at BGI´s will stand out this
all. All really brugfriends must keep together right now.
May be we should ignorate abads and some "honored members" there.
I want my " at Dave´s " back. Only with trusting people.
Well, I own one beauty, which is NOT posted, the name,nor the hybridizer,glad I kept it to myself! Enough said!
well, I feel awful. Eric had talked about his crosses in threads, but I put the info in the database. I'm so sorry I did. Owen, you got seeds from me. the only thing I would like is to be named as the hybridizer if you name any of them. That should always be done if known, but they are yours to name, and I hope one of them is stunning.
I have no problem with giving the hybridizer credit....if the REAL hybridizer is known. As far as naming....with no agreement to the contrary, I feel free to name any brug that I raise, without getting the hybridizer's permission. After all, if I had not grown out the seed or seedling the brug would not exist, so my contribution is just as great as the hybridizer's.
Just my humble opinion. Actually, I am getting pretty turned off about raising brugs from seeds or seedlings.....too many bad apples in the brug world heirarchy to suit me.
I would be the first to admit I'm not an expert on breeding/hybridizing rules or regulations.
However, it stands to reason that if a hybridizer (amateur or professional) creates a hybrid, and announces said creation (and its parentage) in a public setting (the web is ideal in many respects), then another hybridizer cannot knowingly or unknowingly claim to subsequently create the same hybrid, or use the same name. Evidence (emails, forum posts, etc.) will demonstrate the earlier claim for the plant or name.
However, when there is an official registrar for hybrids, the registration process set forth must be abided by in order to prevent needless contesting of names and crosses, and avoid confusion and duplication.
Unless you are hybridizing plants for the pure joy of raising them, and do not EVER wish to sell them as a named hybrid, by all means you are entitled (and encouraged) to keep the parentage undisclosed - and don't name them, because the name will not be valid.
If you think you might want to claim (now or in the future) breeders' rights to a particular cross or name, I'd strongly encourage you to disclose the information and register the name and cross per the process in place.
can someone explain this to my tired brain,
In other words, we can go raid anyone's site, take all the info we want except the actual pics, and post them on any other site we want, with defunct links that do not work?
i swear they had a pic of ida when i looked this afternoon that is not up now. i haven't seen anything.
it's kinda funny "so and so X arlene's XXXX lol....
I am just about ready to fill up a garbage can with brugs, and stick with raising vegetables. Too much hostility in the brug world all of a sudden.
I can't even get a straight answer from a certain member in here from a simple question..... too much hostility, and I just don't need it. It is pretty sad.
I was content with raising vegetables before I ever heard of brugs, so have no problem with leaving all this hostility for you folks to thrash out among yourselves:)
Edited to say that I just got an email from a complete idiot. Now I am really going to trash every brug I have and good riddance to the brug world.
This message was edited Wednesday, Jan 8th 7:13 PM
Well, Jean and anyone else wondering, I posted the pic on Daves, of my brug and gave Karma credit for hybridizing, I just did not send pic to BGI, so it is NOT in ABADS, at least I don't think so!
Data - botanical name, common name, plant height, color, bloom season, etc. - cannot be copyrighted. If it could be copyrighted, what a barren and unlearned world this would be - no gardening books, no websites, no written exchange of information to speak of. And there certainly wouldn't be 40,000 daylily hybrids to inspire us and make us want to try our hand at creating our own plants.
No one would publish information for fear that someone else would use it without permission. Databases such as the PDB would not exist if it weren't for gardeners, botanists, taxonomists and scientists painstakingly recording data - sometimes hundreds of years ago.
Is this what abads wanted to do? destroy friendships?
We should not to be conned or to be taken in by sb/sthg or to fall in this hell of busyness.
This message was edited Wednesday, Jan 8th 8:14 PM
Arlene, if you saw it I know it was there. :) Personally I will in a minutes time e-mail the webmaster to ask them to remove all links to my websites. I told the webmaster in December that I would not have my name or any of my work associated with this organisation. The organisation as such is a fine organisation, but under its current leadership it has brought discredit on all serious and decent Brugmansia lovers, so its not my idea of good companions.
Ludger, the proper way - IMO - will be to ask their webmaster to remove this info (and the links, if legally possible) and see, what happen. Be sure that both BGI and all Brugfriends will survive this.
Monika, I am glad that I only wrote about all my crosses here and then took down the link to them again. It would not be good that anyone tried to copy those or copy anyone elses crosses. If anyone attempt to do this the best way to deal with it - if there is proper proff - will be to put them into the spotlight. Certain people thrive best in the semidarkness of others confusions. (en-)Light(-ment) works in the long run as an desinfectant.
Most of the seeds / brugs / seedlings I have basically came from those on this site. Any seeds I have started I have notified those that sent them that they have babies growing. They are labeled as to the cross and hybridizer. If there is a beauty to come out of those I grow I feel the hybridizer should have first right to name. They are the ones that did the work to create that beauty. Since I did receive a couple that were newly named hybrids this year I would only share with others if given permission to do so, but I would ask first. Thats what I feel and think.
Hibiscus, fyi - that photo has been posted by Karma herself on another site.
owen, I hope you will follow the advice you sent me. you're right, this is not worth our health. This is a disgrace, but it's not our doing. I am trying to enjoy the evening with emily and forget this is going on. (of course you see i'm here checking:)
gv, I understand your point.
As a comment to Owens post I like to ad that I have mailed out a few seed samples to EU Countries of course *lol* WHat I wanted to say is, that I agree fully with Owen and understand his frustration. A unmistakeable agreement should be made between the hybridizer and the the person(s) raising the seeds. It is best to have clear lines from the start and stick to that.
As for my crosses (this year) I find it appropriate that the grower is the one to select and decide, which to keep and which to destroy.
It may seem a bit odd to the most careful among you, but IMO we hybridize and select sometimes from different criterias and I respect that other can have criterias different than mine *lol*
As I mentioned in another context, I virtually hope that only a few use the vacation-criterias to select for vacation and cold + winterhardiness as primary criterias as will do. The rules are very strict and color/ shape come last in a row. Drought and windhardines of the flowers and leaves come first. A beauty as Hofwil would not be possible submitted to these criterias, but we need plants as HW too. A couple of Preissels hybrids would also have ended in the compost *lol* So, groers of my seeds are free to select without my interference.
Naming the selections is also growers rights. He or she did me a big favour to grow something that I didn`t have room for anyway and in respect of that he or she should at least be the one to name them. Going around in ½-1½ year and puzzeling and caring for a plant create a tie (bond) to that particular plant and memories for that grower. That is why :) To me this is more worth than prestige, secrecy and money. When I started to grow Daturas in 1990 my personal discovery of these plants was a magnetizing and magnificent experience that put a lot of joy, meaning and sense into my life and if I can do the same for one who love to care for a seedling I could not ask much more. As now, in 1990 there was a lot of trouble and lack of peace causing barrieres between people. What I saw was, that Datura and later Brugmansia unite people ... create peace and understanding. That is the driving force behind my passion for these plants.
I hope not my opinions create opposition and Buuhs, because I have been honest in what I feel and I have to be true and loyal to what come from inside me.
This message was edited Wednesday, Jan 8th 8:34 PM
I like your rules, Tonny. you are right, people have different criteria.
As a comment to Owens post I like to ad that I have mailed out a few seed samples to EU Countries of course *lol* WHat I wanted to say is, that I agree fully with Owen and understand his frustration. A unmistakeable agreement should be made between the hybridizer and the the person(s) raising the seeds. It is best to have clear lines from the start and stick to that.
As for my crosses (this year) I find it appropriate that the grower is the one to select and decide, which to keep and which to destroy.
It may seem a bit odd to the most careful among you, but IMO we hybridize and select sometimes from different criterias and I respect that other can have criterias different than mine *lol*
As I mentioned in another context, I virtually hope that only a few use the vacation-criterias to select for vacation and cold + winterhardiness as primary criterias as will do. The rules are very strict and color/ shape come last in a row. Drought and windhardines of the flowers and leaves come first. A beauty as Hofwil would not be possible submitted to these criterias, but we need plants as HW too. A couple of Preissels hybrids would also have ended in the compost *lol* So, groers of my seeds are free to select without my interference.
Naming the selections is also growers rights. He or she did me a big favour to grow something that I didn`t have room for anyway and in respect of that he or she should at least be the one to name them. Going around in ½-1½ year and puzzeling and caring for a plant create a tie (bond) to that particular plant and memories for that grower. That is why :)
I hope not my opinions create opposition and Buuhs, because I have been honest in what I feel and I have to be true and loyal to what come from inside me.
Susie forgot to give credit to ecipse for sunray....both pics have links to her store, but not his name..maybe it was too small for me to see.
Waterloo: I am aware of that, she didn't ask if she could use MY picture, but we were good frineds and there was no agreement that I would give her the credit for hybridizing,
but I DID!
Gosh, I can't believe how much has happened while I was gone today. I hope that you are relaxing Bonnie. I know there is nothing I can do to help with this, but I'm here if anyone needs me for anything. I believe that we are a good group and I do not like what has happened to us. However, I do not see what we can do other than the suggestion that anyone who needs to...write ABADS and make the request to remove specific information. I believe Kyle has the right idea. Just keep all information to yourself if you don't want it to pop up on your monitor when visiting timbuctoo..........boy, had no idea how to spell that one.....
Shirley, they have Shirley's peach listed too, lol. i guess this means our names are protected, and we don't have to bother with registering, lol?
on a brighter note, do you think if i pay them 15.00 they will let me link the pics that i choose to my brug store? lolololololol
Arlene, They have my Snowhermit, Moonbeam and Mountain Mist listed with my name. Also what the cross was on two of them. I think they should have asked permission before putting my name on their site with info on my Brugs.
I agree with you Terry. That would just be the polite and right thing to do. It almost feels like someone infringing upon our privacy. Maybe we should give them our passwords to our own computers too.
Arlene, good question.......... :-)
I been off here for awhile because of illnesses & this saddens me. VH and whom ever else that enjoys causing a dissension in our ranks is probably reading this thread and loving it all. Here is an idea--maybe all the hybridizing info should be for paid members of BGI only--meaning print out the info in a quarterly letter and mail it to the members. At least you'll know who the true blue brug lovers are. Make them pay extra for the newsletters if you want or ask for "donations". Or give every member have a separate password to get the info. If the main hybridizers here at DG don't want to pay for a membership-- I'll pay for it--I'm willing to do almost anything to keep this group together. Ludger,Monika and the rest of the "experts" are really an inspiration for everyone. That being said I also want to point out that if there is anybody here that is a member of ABADs and is annoyed at their tactics please email mail them with your views on the subject and if you feel mistrustful of them then cancel your membership. Owen, tiG, Ludger,Arlene and everyone else please don't let this one mistrustful act taint your love for your brugs. Yes, you can email me with your thoughts if you are afraid to post here.