Common Names

Humbly submitted:
There is only one Latin binomial (well, synonyms aside...;)
But there are hundreds of local names to the more popular plants, many language specific. Would there be some way to regionalize (for example):

Lilium formosanum var pricei

English: Dwarf Taiwan Lily, Dwarf Formosan Lily
Japanese: Hime Takasago Yuri ["Princess Highsand Lily"]
Chinese: Tai-wan Bai-he
German: ...
French: ...
Klingon: ...
etc.
?????

Thanks for your consideration!

Lilium formosanum:

Finnish: formosanlilja (we have no name for the var. pricei I think..)
Swedish: Basunlilja

Chinese: Tai-wan Bai-he
English: Dwarf Taiwan Lily, Dwarf Formosan Lily
Finnish: Formosanlilja
Japanese: Hime Takasago Yuri ["Princess Highsand Lily"]
Swedish: Basunlilja
Pig Latin: Arfdway Aiwantay Ilylay
German ...
French ...
Klingon ...
Elvish ...
Southern Californian ...

And the beat goes on...

Point being: not just an American database, but an international database...???
Once again, humbly submitted, aware of the nightmare of endless re-programming...:)

This message was edited Wednesday, Jul 31st 8:03 PM

This message was edited Wednesday, Jul 31st 8:05 PM

Pig Latin: Arfdway Aiwantay Ilylay

LOL! I had to study these past few posts for a few seconds. I haven't spoken pig latin since I was about 12, and that's a long, long time ago! LOL!

Don't feel bad, Joan. Iway evernay earnedlay igpay atinlay. Atthay isway osay adsay.

I cheated: http://www.snowcrest.net/donnelly/piglatin.html . Sigh, I *am* a geek.

Gardenwife, are there any sites you DON"T know about LOL. That is a great one!

I know the one site that counts: Google.com! ;D

This poor thread has been hijacked by pig latin-speaking terrorists :) Some of the nicest thread-jackers you'd ever want to meet, although I'd need a translator to converse - I never quite got the hang of pig latin, (or igpay atinlay, as they say.)

Lophophora, you've raised an interesting question/suggestion, and now I'm going to wait for Dave to take it under advisement.

Lopho, by adding Klingon to the list, you definitely got my attention. Qapl'a! :-)

Anyway, yes, this might not be a bad idea. We could setup a table of other common names, found in foreign languages. ... Just give me a complete list of which languages should be included and it shall be done.

dave

I think it's a great idea too. As for a list of languages I can't really help out there (cos I only speak one) but how about English (GB, Australian, South African etc), French, German, Spanish, Greek, Chinese, Japanese and Russian for starters. (I added Russia because they have some superb wildplants that can be found in gardens in all temperate zones and some great botanists too)

Finnish too :}

Oh yes sorry Evert! I didn'r mean to leave you out there :)

Hehöhee :)

Dave -
(and go_vols too! :)

Many thanks for taking my humble little proposal into consideration.
As for the list of languages -
It's already going to be work for you to set it up on the server. But if you limit it to a static list, ever few weeks or so you're going to get some new member who feels left out and wants you to amend it to include Romansch, Hindi, Maori, Hawaiian, Esperanto, etc. ad infinitum. (Evert's post above proves the point)
An idea: (again, submitted humbly, and in readily admitted ignorance of even the most basic elements of site design and maintainence) On the main page of each PD entry, under "Add Synonym name" put a link "Add common name", or something similar. Then have a box for Language and a seperate box for the new common name. With your programming magic, make it so that once the data is entered and submitted, it appears on the PD entry's page as "French: Fleur de Lis"

Some problems I thought of after I suggested this whole mess:
1. Do you have to go back to all previous 20 million PD entries, and manually resort all the common names? I can not imagine that that would be much fun.
2. Local color. I was in a thread yesterday where one of our Southern members mentioned a "Sweet Gum Tree". For a California Boy like me, "Gum Tree" means Eucalyptus, not Liquidambar. On an international level, I've often been accused by my British friends of not speaking English, but American. (Notice in Baa's post above, she didn't include us 'Mericuns in her English list? Bad Baa! Naughty Baa! :) Common names are often quite different in different English speaking countries. Some of our Canadian members may feel slighted if thrown into the "American" heap. And so on...... How will you differentiate between language, dialect, and local?
3. Transliteration and transcription. My Taiwan lily is çÇçªïSçá over here. Can you read the Chinese characters I just inputted? I can (as I type it), but that's because I've installed various language kits and fonts on my system. I can't read cyrillic or sanskrit. Will you limit common names to transcriptions into the Roman alphabet only?

Hmm.. I'm hoping this doesn't lead to more trouble than it's worth. I'll be back after the weekend to continue this thread.

PS. Dave - JIyaj!! Judging by your reaction, you're of course familiar with The Klingon Language Institute, but I'll post the link anyway, just for those out there that would like to experience the melliferous sounds of a language that rivals French for sensuality and beauty ;)
http://www.kli.org/


This message was edited Friday, Aug 2nd 2:22 PM

Dave -

An idea came to me as I was rereading this thread. Allow enough characters in the "Language" box, and savvy members could write:
English (US)
English (US Southern States)
English (Nova Scotia only)
English (UK Black Country)
Chinese (Cantonese)
Chinese (Classical)
Spanish (Andalucia)
Spanish (Northern Mexico)
Spanish (Peru, Bolivia, Chile)
Klingon (Occupied Planets on the Periphery)

Etc.

This message was edited Friday, Aug 2nd 12:53 PM

ROTF...English (US)...English (US Southern States)...

I know you're serious, and I know the reasons why the differentiation would be helpful, but it still tickled me to read that!

gardenwife -

I am serious! Hey - both my parents are from Texas, and I was raised in California, so I truly consider myself bilingual :) (Well, trilingual if you consider that I also speak English... ;)

I'll swannee, ya'll are trying to drag back up that horrid "war between the states" thang, aren't ya? (she asks in her most Scarlet O'Hara-esque drawl)

For the record, I hear tell we didn't really lose that war; the $%#$% yankees simply declared it over prematurely before they got their tails whooped. (And thus goes one of the many fairy tales told to southern-born children.)

Umm... I think I'll sit this one out....
:)

Danish - we have a terrific Danish hybridizer here.
English - Canadian. I don't get the Nova Scotia only, although the Maritimers do march to a different (but musical) drummer. LOL
This thing really is a minefield, isn't it?

LOLOL! Y'all are too funny!

As for the common names, how about just the name (spelled like it sounds as best as you can in the regular old English alphabet) and where it's called that? For instance, Celosia could be called Cockscomb in Tennesse, Plume Plant in England and That Thar Purty Thang in Texas. This could be inputted by using two boxes with those captions (or ones like them): "common name" and "where it's know by that common name."

Liz definitely a minefield!

LOL Wingnut you come along and make it worse *G*.

THAT THAR PURDY THANG.... Oh Wingnut you just knocked me off my chair!!!!

I think we should include Scotland too, since we have different names for plants than in England, or do you know the English common name for Pee-The-Beds??

Maybe there is a way just to name the plant by latin name, then a list behind it with the common names from certain districts, e.g. Cockscomb (US-Tn), That Thar..... (US-Tx), Queens Wig (UK-Sco)

Wintermoor

Without meaning to knock anyone's favorite dialect (hey, coming from a Southerner, that'd be like throwing rocks at glass houses fer sure...) I'd feel more comfortable going with a pulldown list of countries next to a text box that can be completed for the common name, rather than leaving the whole thing wide open to interpretation. (We get enough "variety" in how people interpret family, genus and species lol.)

As a side note, I find it ironic how the pendulum swings on this issue. We have members who become quite agitated when this issue arises - in fact, some feel we should remove the common name field from the PDB altogether.

Just for the record, I am firmly in the camp that says botanical names ARE best - they are specific AND they cross all geographic boundaries. At the same time, I see our role being to help gardeners translate common names into Latin and vice-versa. Having both in the PDB is necessary to accomplish this task. Not to mention, it's often very interesting to learn what certain plants may be called.

And since we are a site with members from all over the world, it stands to reason that the PDB isn't supposed to help only American gardeners in this endeavor :)

I agree!

We could end up with a thread six miles long on this subject.

Wintermoor

LOLOL, Wintermoor! I hope nothing was broken when you picked yourself up off the floor. ;) You'd better not ever talk to my DH then ~ his accent is so thick, you might not be able to understand him. *Grin!*

Sorry, Baa! I just figgered if no one had to come up with a list of countries, it might be easier. Then again, it is awful easy to add plant info with the new pull-down menus. I heard you say something the other day that might apply here: "You just threw a spanner in the works." That's the American equivalent of "You just threw a monkey wrench in the works", huh? *Grin!*

I agree that latin/botanical names are the most important and that you'd be knocking a whole lot of people out if you didn't use common names, too. I like that part of the PDB ~ and however you fix it, I'm sure it'll be great.

Phew Vols thanks for coming along and being a voice of reason LOL! I can think of 7 common names for Arum maculatum from England let alone adding more regional names *G*

Wingnut

Colloquialisms are nightmares when speaking to people from other countries aren't they ;) Interesting how the same language evolves in other countires.

Depending on how Dave chooses to implement this, it may be very possible that multiple names could be added at once, just as it's possible to do that now in the common name field of an entry. So if there are 7 common names in England for Arum maculatum, most (if not all) could be added at once.

An issue that gives me pause is that the same name is sometimes used in different countries. So will we see those seven A. maculatum names of Baa's (I'll pick on her :) also show up with the countries of Scotland, Ireland and Australia next to them? That could get redundant in a hurry...

Yep, Baa! I used "That Thar Purty Thang" as a joke, but you'd be amazed how many plants around here really are called that. ;) It's my DH's fave name.

Vols, that is a good point. If celosia was called That Thar Purty Thang in all of these fifty states, well, that would be a heckuva list if you didn't have a pull-down menu ~ even if no other country chimed in with their common names.

Hmm... seems every time I make a suggestion around here I end up opening a can of worms :(

Perhaps we should heed Fred Astaire:

Let's Call The Whole Thing Off
From the RKO Picture "Shall We Dance"
Music by George Gershwin; Lyric by Ira Gershwin
Performed by Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers

Things have come to a pretty pass
Our romance is growing flat,
For you like this and the other
While I go for this and that,

Goodness knows what the end will be
Oh I don't know where I'm at
It looks as if we two will never be one
Something must be done:

You say e-ther and I say i-ther,
You say ne-ther and I say ni-ther
Either, either Neither, neither
Let's call the whole thing off.

You like potato and I like potahto
You like tomato and I like tomahto
Potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto.
Let's call the whole thing off

But oh, if we call the whole thing off
Then we must part
And oh, if we ever part, then that might break my heart

So if you like pyjamas and I like pyjahmas,
I'll wear pyjamas and give up pyajahmas
For we know we need each other so we
Better call the whole thing off
Let's call the whole thing off.

You say laughter and I say larfter
You say after and I say arfter
Laughter, larfter after arfter
Let's call the whole thing off,

You like vanilla and I like vanella
You saspiralla, and I saspirella
Vanilla vanella chocolate strawberry
Let's call the whole thing off

But oh if we call the whole thing of then we must part
And oh, if we ever part, then that might break my heart

So if you go for oysters and I go for ersters
I'll order oysters and cancel the ersters
For we know we need each other so we
Better call the calling off off,
Let's call the whole thing off.

I say father, and you say pater,
I say mother and you say mater
Pater, mater Uncle, auntie let's call the whole thing off.

I like bananas and you like banahnahs
I say Havana and I get Havahnah
Bananas, banahnahs Havana, Havahnah
Go your way, I'll go mine

So if I go for scallops and you go for lobsters,
So all right no contest we'll order lobseter
For we know we need each other so we
Better call the calling off off,
Let's call the whole thing off.


:):):):) [In British Omoticonian *G*]

This message was edited Sunday, Aug 4th 1:38 PM

Ok - me again - the trouble maker....

Please understand everyone - I'm firmly in go-vols, Wingnut, and Baa's camp: for twenty years now, the only way I've been able to make myself understood to Japanese growers is through Latin binomials. (The plant my nickname comes from (Lophophora williamsii) is in Japanese "Floating Horse Ball" - heh?)

When I access the PDB, it's always by scientific name. I've forgotten most of the American names my Nana taught me - and I've rarely bothered to learn most Japanese names for things, unless I'm translating into Latin for my own plant labels.

The intention behind my "humble submission" (even humbler now that this newbie knows that the issue has raised blood pressure on DG before....) was for database purposes (see post Jul 31, 2002, 7:54 PM).
So yet another humble suggestion: make it an optional hyperlink that doesn't pop up with the entry...?????

E-ther (I-ther ;) that or drop the whole thing????

Dunno. Open can. Love worms aerating my soil, but hate 'em sliming up my computer monitor...

(oh - BTW - everyone in this thread has been so wonderfully civil despite honestly held beliefs...
to quote Calvin and Hobbes: "This is such a great club!!!!"

This message was edited Sunday, Aug 4th 3:04 PM

Vols

Do you want me to list those names here? I'm going to anyway just in case *G* Arum maculatum - Lords and Ladies, Cuckoo Pint, Calve's Foot, Wild Arum, Adam and Eve, Adders Tongue, Dog's Dibble, Babe in the Cradle, Parson and Clerk, Sweet Hearts ... well OK that's 10 and I have a few more too but I'm not translating folk names on a family site ;)

Lophophora

Don't stop bring up ideas! Now the question is .. why floating horse ball?

Baa -
Thanks Luv.
&
Ummmm....idunno. Would you care to assert a hypothesis? It's had me stumped since Adam's first cough.
I would prefer "Sono-kawaiimono" (translation: "tha' purty thang" - remember, Wingnut and I are cousins thrice removed plus a few!)

*G*-lol;)

It's always so difficult to read the intent behind the words, isn't it? Please believe I find this idea VERY interesting - it's just a matter of sorting out how to make it happen. Speaking for myself, I'm always glad to see members, new or old, take an active role here - and suggesting new ideas is always good, even if they end up being implemented differently than the way they were first suggested.

I only pointed out the opposing viewpoints on this subject, because they're bound to come up (and when I see a newbie walking through a field of potential landmines, I feel obligated to warn them to watch their step :)

For the most part, I have to give DG members a high score on settling disagreements in a most agreeable manner. (Occasionally that doesn't happen, but such is life.)

So now I know the top ten names to expect to hear for A. maculatum when I visit Baa - although a few of them would sitll make my eyebrows shoot up if someone actually spoke them aloud. And there "ain't no way" I'm touching the "floating horse ball" thing, lolol.

LOL Vols wise decision!

Lophophora

I may have to contemplate that on one of my insomnia bouts, however I think I prefer the Greek translation of Lophophora - Crest Bear.

go_vols -

I'm mainly worried about creating excessive excessive programming work for our Dear Leader, the resident Klingon sympathizer ;) But your gentleness is gratefully recieved.
People are great here, aren't they? Agreeing to disagree is the highest expression of Heart, IMHO.

And Baa.....

Perhaps we should go to private email - "D**'s D****e" and "F******g H***e B**l" posts are going to get us both into trouble...;)

Our Vols is a great lady :)

Ain't nothing I wouldn't say in front of my Mother (risk of having my mouth washed out with carbolic or coal tar) although the Japanese name would make a great curse. Cuckoo pint is just as bad if you know what it's short for ;) Ahh those olden names when people really knew how to make a flowery language.

And anytime you want to talk F-H-B and D-D your always welcome to email me! ROTFL

"Sono-kawaiimono"?! I don't know if Kenny can wrap his mouth around that, but it would be funny to see him try!! LOLOLOLOL!

Oh boy, am I getting slow on the uptake. It took me all afternoon to figure out the letters that should be where the asterisks are. Good grief. I am kind of curious about the Cuckoo Pint - I caught the puppy-dog one already :)