I need your opinions

My dh is starting up his performing business, and he wanted me to ask you a couple of questions. First, what would you think of, or have you already seen, a gospel illusionist (magician) at your church? if you have seen one, could you let me know what was good or bad about it?
Secondly, birthday parties will be the bread and butter of our business, and dh wants to eventually add in a Christian themed magic show for birthdays. As parents, what would you like to see in a christian magic show? would you want it to be evangelistic, or not? Also, what would you be willing to pay for an hour-long show (with animal balloons or hats for all the kids)?

Any thoughts, opinions, or ideas will be greatly appreciated by both of us. This is very serious, as we need this business to fly in order to make ends meet, it isn't just a hobby for him. He has been a children's entertainer (clown, magician, and balloonologist) for twenty years now, but never before on this scale. Please keep us in prayer, as I will be the office manager, and I need to be very organized, something I am not good at.

Thank you in advance,
Cedar

Call me old fashion but I don't think magic belongs in church. I don't know why exactly but it just does not seem right. at birthday parties and such, ok but not in church.

Hi Cedar, first, I wish you and your husband all the best in your venture. The idea of magic in Church makes me uncomfortable... as jcf notes, I am not sure why either. To be fair, I have never seen this anywhere... Birthday parties sound like a great idea... I would imagine the presentation could be geared to the wishes of the family as far as Christian themes. Maybe something with Noah and the animals would be good? As far as Evangelistic, I am not sure how you mean? Would a birthday party be a suitable time to introduce a 'new' idea to the people involved?? I would imagine that I would pay $45 for an hour's entertainment as you describe above. The price might vary depending on travel time... I would probably like to see Old Testament story favorites...

The fact that you know you are not organised will work in your favor, as you will have to compensate by being very organised!

Hope my ramblings are of some slight help in answering your questions.

Best wishes in your newly expanded business!!! John

Birthday parties are wonderful! I don't consider church as a viable vehicle for magic....and I would have to see how this could be incorporated into Christian educational tool for Children...or adults.

"eyes"

I might be way off base, but I wonder, if it's not good in church, why is it good elsewhere? We are taught that God is everywhere, and are supposed to behave accordingly. Aren't we teaching our children to be on their best behavior for church and then do what they want the rest of the week?

...I don't know Aimee....a lot of God's work is veiwed as mystical.....I'd just have to see how they plan to achieve this to judge it one way or the other....God uses all avenues to reveal his instruction and create his miracles.

"eyes"

I haven't taken a stand one way or the other, I just think if we feel hesitant to have this in a church setting, we need to examine our reasons. It's either good or bad. I think since we teach by parables, and many of them involve miracles, magic can be explained as a man-made or simulated miracle. If we dress up for the Christmas play, and we use makeup and wigs to create an effect, that is a form of "deception" that is innocent. We have no hesitation about its belonging. When we build an artificial waterfall, we don't think it's a bad thing, and I doubt that anyone would object to having one in the nave, as far as acceptability in a Christian setting. I'm exploring the idea of illusion here, and as long as it's not an evil thing, with negative consequences, I can't find an explanation for the resistance. But I'm curious to know if someone does have an explanation, or is it one of those "gut feeling" things? Of course, I always marveled at the church I saw with spittoons in the apse but no ash trays. I do struggle with these things.

Linnea, I do wish you and your husband the very best with your endeavor, and it sounds like it's a very serious undertaking. I'm sorry to be another "wet blanket", but honestly I would not feel comfortable with a magician "performing" during a worship service. For starters I would look to Acts 8:9-24 (the story of Simon the sorcerer) for guidance on why I don't think it's appropriate. (Truth be told I'm not comfortable with the concept of watching any sort of performance during worship, since I believe we are there to edify and admonish one another and most importantly to worship God - not to be entertained.)

I have to confess I've never hired a professional performer at my kids' birthday parties. But I would think that depending on the number of guests and travel time, etc. paying $100 or more wouldn't be out of line for a clown, magician, etc. And I would be more likely to hire a Christian performer, all other things being equal. I agree with John - stories from the OT are rich fodder for themes, especially Jonah and the whale, Noah and the Ark, etc. For some ideas, you might check out the Veggie Tales videos - they have some cute ways of presenting the principles behind many of those stories.

Aimee, maybe I can explain a little better what I am trying to say... For example, at the Wedding Feast at Cana, water was turned into wine. I wouldn't want this miracle to be confused in any way with a magic act, as I am afraid it might if magic were used as part of a Church service. I have to agree with go_vols about what is "appropriate"- not necessarily good or bad. Or say, the Loaves and the Fishes, another miracle I wouldn't want to see 'discounted' as a magic trick.

Linnea, I think $45 is probably a low estimate, but I don't know that I'd go over $100; you may have a better feeling for what the traffic in your area would bear. John

Linnea, I think when you mention the word "Church" people always seem to naturally assume the worship area of a building.

I assume that you will be performing, as I have seen, in either a basement or hall of the church or school part or a church rec. center. Depending on what your act is based on it could worked as for fitting in with certain religous education programs or like such.

As for the second part the ones I have seen do not evangalize,their acts are very netural and usually based on a certain Christian theme or event. Here the going rate is $45 to $75 for a 45 minute show. But then again we have a lot of YUPPIES!!! which in actuality would be your most logical customers

I see I need to explain a little. My husband is very careful when performing to explain that what he does is a trick, not a miracle - and, although there are magic tricks that seem to replicate miracles (water into wine) he does not ever perform these - and he does not bill himself as a magician when performing in a church. I used that term because many are not familiar with illusionist. He uses the illusions to teach Bible truths, and no, we would not be performing during a worship service. My husband's style of performing is comedic - he is a Children's entertainer - and he is something of a cross between a clown and a magician. We don't think his act is suitable for a worship service, but it would be great for a fellowship dinner, children's event, etc.

Thank you for your opinions,
Cedar

Cedar, I'm going to give you a different take from the previous responses regarding your question. If done in an appropriate way (there lies the rub), I would see nothing wrong in using illusions, not "magic", to illustrate that it is easy to be fooled by men professing to have mystical/supernatural powers, but man's greatest efforts at "magic" are insignificant in comparison to what our Lord is capable of.

So called "mystical/magical" people cross our paths all the time (the person on the SciFi channel who communicates with the departed - I forget his name as he is unimportant), and it is important for impressionable young people to see them as they really are - mere illusionists who have no "powers" and who pale in comparison to the abilities of our Lord.

I think this approach could be especially effective for the young ones in bible school. It would certainly grab their attention (which is always a challenge) and give the real message a much better chance at being heard and then sinking in.

I believe that anything done in a loving, devotional way to show our Lord's greatness can be a good thing - there is nothing inherently evil in performing illusions as long as you don't profess to have supernatural powers and convince others to follow your beliefs because of these so-called powers.

Indeed, this is how the cult religions are able to survive and prosper. To be able to see through the illusionists who profess to have higher powers/insight is one of the most important things that can be taught the young and impressionable. If your husband can help in accomplishing this, then I say more power to him.

One always has the option of seeing the glass half full or half empty.

Linnea, thanks for clarifying what it is your husband does - and when/where he does it :) That does make a huge difference. Would I be opposed to having entertainment during a church potluck dinner or a holiday banquet? Nope. And I think Copperbaron brings up a good point of how magic/illusion can be contrasted to the miracles performed by Jesus and the apostles, which can be very effective for kids of a wide age range - probably ages 8 on up would be able to get the compare/contrast message.

We had a Christian illusionist do an hour-long presentation at our high school 2 years ago. He really got the kids' attention. Then he had a really good message for them. He made it very clear that everything he did was trickery. I think it's good for kids to know that these ARE illusions and tricks, and that that's what most magic is. I think kids'll be less impressed with the evil kind of magic if they know that most of it is illusion. He charged $500 and was worth every penny.

I belong to the German club here in town and one of the Lutheran churches was having a benefit for a child with leukemia. We were invited to sing and they had clowns there too and people loved it. Lots of churches have benefits and I don't see why it wouldn't be ok to do magic or clown stuff in a church. Just my little input. Good luck with the business :)

I had to smile when I read this! My Father is a retired Baptist minister. Very by the book! (Bible) He set one Sunday a month aside for the children and instead of fire and brimstone he taught bible stories using illusions or flannel stories. It was always fun and the children all enjoyed it immensely. What is more important though is that young and old alike went away from those services and none of them had any trouble telling anyone else what the message had been. Adult attendance always increased on those days as well as childrens. Dad also called it illusion and made the distinction between that and miracles. I believe that this approach to getting a message across is one that should be used more often. In church, in school or at home if you want to teach a subject it helps if you have their attention!

Hi Cedar, I read your clarification, and have a much better idea of what your husband does. Sounds great! Wishing you both much success, John

I very much agree with John and Brenda!!! Good luck in your endeavors!!

"eyes"

Thank you all so much for your input and insights, we really appreciate them. We will be performing more and more this summer, and hopefully it will become a full time job for him soon ( I have so much else, with children, the home, and garden, that I help him where I can! ).

Thanks again,
Cedar

This is a good idea since churches haves become so dead it might get more attention for the good Lord's work

this is a very interesting topic.
i do wish you and your husband well.
i would not have any problem with my children seeing your husbands show as it sounds like he is very clear to folks that they are tricks and slight of hand...i think if you would see it on monday...you should not be ashamed to be seeing it sunday...
after all Jesus sees all that we do...right??? i'm opposed to witchcraft and would not let my children see that type of thing any day but tricks are different i think....i have not thought on this alot but you have all made some very good points. i remember as a child that we had some travelling evangilists come to our churches and those who had colorful programs and stoires and shows seemed to keep peoples interest and draw crowds that perhaps would have stayed home and missed the whole message. the interesting show made new people feel like coming out and the seeds were planted....i think as long as the show is done to glorify the Lord and to bring new souls into the fold it is fine by me. i am no expert on such matters but i can see you fiolks are doing it for good and approaching it with the proper intentions and i repect and applaude you for your thought you are putting into the matter. i hope you do well. i would be glad to have such a program at a birthday party for my children. i think children would LOVE this. me too likely! LOL!
let us know how you do and what other feed back you get as this is all very interesting and everyone has the right to an opinion. even a differing one!
LOL!!! ;) pardan !!!!!!

This message was edited Tuesday, Feb 12th 2:54 PM