It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 5

You know that many of us are still hoping that you'll release some of your unique seeds for others to try ... some day ...

My most-hoped-for is one that looks like an explosion in a paint factory! I know that you focus on "form", but the multiple distinct colors fascinated me most.

Still having fun with the zinnia. These are some of the more unusual ones, I have found in my rows, that were planted July 10th. Thought they would for sure be of interest to ZM.

Well - gee, I was prepared to send 5 pix's and the system would only let me send one. So I'll try another entry.

Here I go again with a few more of the pixtures of my zinnia from today.

ZM - Hope you have a comment............... As I know you are all about zinnias.

The 4th pix with the two blooms, were of course off of the same plant - blooming side by side.

Not quite sure what is going on with the last pix. At first I thought an insect had eaten part of it, then as I examined it a little closer - I think it grew like that. I doubt that will be a keeper.

These were basically all of the unusual zinnia I found today (that caught my attention). I especially liked the yellow with white edging around the petals in the post just prior to this one.

I like photo 4, I'm a bit conservative.

Hi Brenda,

Apologies for the delay in responding. You have some nice zinnias. Are those ribbons that you are using to mark your blooms? That last one is a bit of a mystery. Something could have bitten it when it was young, or maybe it did just grow that way.

That second one has some interestingly curled petals. A few are curled in a way that I haven't seen before. I would save seeds from that one to see it its progeny have some interesting petals. The first and third and the yellow one up above would make good females for cross pollinating, because they aren't "throwing pollen". And they have nice full blooms.

These pictures are some of my current breeders.

ZM

Hi ZM - Interesting I was looking at some old seed packet fronts last night and there was one they called a scabiosia zinnia, which reminds me of your #1 & #5 above, with the little puff in the center. Those are VERY pretty. That color on your #5 is like purple ice - Beautiful. Your #3 looks like a starburst. The #4 I can almost see the parent.

Yes, I mark my zinnia with plastic tape.

Hi Brenda,

I mark my zinnias with Velcro tape, like in the first picture. I use the 1/2-inch wide tape to label individual blooms on a bush, telling what that bloom was pollinated width. For the basic plant labels, I prefer the tape to be a bit wider. For that I use 2-inch tree holding tape, and split it three ways to get 2/3-inch tape. I write on the Velcro tape with Sharpie markers. I use the Ultra Fine Point Sharpies to write on the 1/2-inch tape and the Fine Point Sharpies to write more boldly on the 2/3-inch labels. The light green color and texture of the Velcro tape blends nicely with the green color of zinnia leaves.

You are right, the first and fifth breeders above have at least one Scabiosa Flowered grandparent. Sometimes the scabiosa flowered zinnias occupy several spots on their "family tree". Scabiosa flowered zinnias are what got me started with zinnia breeding. I crossed a scabiosa flowered zinnia with a large flowered Burpeeana Giant zinnia, and got an amazing large hybrid that had a very full scabious center. It was like no commercially available zinnia, and it showed me how easy it is to get zinnias that are beyond what is commercially available.

I probably should buy some more commercial scabiosa flowered zinnia seed to grow next year, just to add to my gene pool. But I have had several distinctly different results from cross-pollinating with scabi pollen.

ZM

I really love the color of the pink one. I have not seen that color in zinnia, but then I have only seen the commercial ones from seeds available to general public.

Well, I like #2 and #5. I was going to try this but have become a care giver for my husband so that is not in the cards right now. You all seem to doing a great job and having fun. And that is what life is all about.

Thanks for the tagging info Zen...good stuff. I also thought #2 looks incredibly like an old world bloom, straight from the pages of a vintage catalog...cool.

ZM - Love the deep burgundy centers in #2 photo and #5 on your most recent post. And, Also the rushy colored edgings of the petals of photo #2. I think you have your labeling down to a fine science. Prior to seeing the photos of old seed packets, I did not realize there was a scabiosia zinnia on the market. Do you recall who sells the scabiosia zinnia seed? The color of the #3 & #4 zinnia are unique.

Most interesting.

Hi Brenda,

There are several strains of scabiosa flowered zinnias in the marketplace. The "newest" is Zinnia Cupcake, which I have not tried yet, but intend to buy some and grow them out next Spring.

http://www.territorialseed.com/product/Cupcakes_Mix_Zinnia_Seed/new_for_spring_2014

I guess the next "newest" is Zinnia Candy Mixed. Park Seed offers it as a Fall special.

http://parkseed.com/candy-mix-zinnia-seeds/p/51989-PK-P1/

Thompson & Morgan also offer Candy Mixed.

http://www.tmseeds.com/product/Zinnia-elegans-Candy-Mix/Shop_Annual_Flower_Seed

Thompson & Morgan offer Scabious Zinnias Mixed, so you can get two kinds of scabious zinnias from them.

http://www.tmseeds.com/product/Zinnia-Scabious-Flowered-Mixed

Swallowtail Gardens also offer Scabious Flowered Mixed, and warn that about one half of them will be off-type. For most scabious zinnia strains, that would be optimistic.

http://www.swallowtailgardenseeds.com/annuals/zinnias.html#Scabiosa-Flowered-Mix-zinnia-seeds

The Cook's Garden also offers Zinnia "Scabiosaflora Mix"

http://www.cooksgarden.com/cottage-flowers/zinnia/zinnia-scabiosaflora-mix-prod000678.html?catId=2103&trail=

I like to purchase from more than one source, because the zinnia seeds from one field differ from those of "the same variety" from another field. It's sort of like getting a second and third opinion on something.

I am including a few more pictures of my zinnias that showed scabious influence. The scabious genes can do some interesting things when mixed with other zinnia varieties.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

ZM

Love your #2 pixs - the soft yellow above. Very interesting #4 coloring.

Territorial Seed Co is a favorite and Thompson & Morgran I am acquainted with as well.

#5 pixs looks like it is mixed with a cactus zinnia.

Always enjoying your pictures.

Hi Brenda,

I think of the zinnia in #2 as Marigold flowered, because it looks rather like some marigolds do. I know that #1 is rather weird, but I actually like it. It reminds me of a Water Lily, and I will actually be trying to develop a strain based on that unusual flower form, as the opportunity presents itself.

A lot of my zinnias have some cactus flowered "blood" in them, including #5. It represents a project to get much larger central florets in the scabious-like flower form. I would like for each floret to be a flower unto itself. My enthusiasm for my Razzle Dazzle and Exotic strains is based on the same goal -- to get the individual flower parts of zinnias to look more like individual flowers. Botanically, any plant part capable of producing a seed is a "flower", and that includes individual zinnia petals, as well as the pollen-bearing florets. The florets in #5 are considerably larger than normal. Pics of a few more scabious-based breeders.

ZM

I vote #1 and #3, #2,#5, #4 - in that order.

I find this so fascinating Zen, please keep posting.

Sharon,

You have my fullest sympathies in your role as a caregiver for your husband.

This year I am giving priority to developing the mutant offspring by crossing them with larger better zinnias to increase their size and color range. A few current pictures of some zinnias that you won't find in any of your seed catalogs.

ZM

Just have to chime in and second what Sharon said!

I seem to prefer the brighter ones like #2, although the first one is interesting as well.

ZM

Those last zinnia you posted (especially # 3 & #4 look like they could be more of a hummingbird magnet? #1 another starburst.

Hi Brenda,

You asked about scabiosa flowered zinnias earlier, and as it happens there are two new ones for 2015. They are Zinderella Peach and Zinderella Lilac:

http://www.stokeseeds.com/product.aspx?ProductID=58453&CategoryID=551

http://www.stokeseeds.com/product.aspx?ProductID=58452&checkCookies=1

Grin. What was once an almost empty category is getting almost crowded.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

This message was edited Sep 23, 2014 12:08 AM

This message was edited Sep 23, 2014 12:10 AM

ZM - Thanks for the info about scabiosa flowered zinnia.

I've been out among the zinnia this eve - only thing, the eve just was not long enough before it became dark. I so enjoy meandering among the zinnia and checking out what new surprises are in store and working trying to make new surprises for next year. Here are some of the zinnia I marked this eve. For sure I want to save their seeds.

Hi Brenda,

I am tentatively expecting my outdoor zinnia project to be ended by frost sometime in October, possibly about mid-October. I am still doing some cross pollinations in case the growing season should run a little long into the last of October. I am saving seeds as they become available. Pictures of some of my current "breeder" zinnias are attached.

ZM

ZM - Your number 2 is a beaut!! Also really like the cool (almost blue) color or #4.

Yes - I expect my outdoor zinnia gardening will probably end between October 15 and the 20th. Hoping for closer to the 20th. My last area of zinnias, planted July 10th, are sure at their peak right now. They never cease to amaze me in all their glory. Such fun!

People's zinnias are still in bloom here in MA. No frost as yet.

Hi Brenda,

My number 2 is showing strong Whirligig heritage, with the white tips on red petals. I estimate that over half of my zinnias have some Whirligig "blood" in them. I strongly recommend the Stokes Seeds strain of Whirligigs, because it has a decent fraction of double and semi-double flowers, in a variety of forms that don't appear on the catalog pictures. And Stokes Seeds also offers economical bulk and semi-bulk prices. These zinnias all have Whirligig influence.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

ZM - #5 Is STUNNING STUNNING STUNNING, and what I like most about it the burgundy/pink edging around each petal. I have not noticed that in any of your prior picture posts. Of course the purples are grand and I see the Whirligig "blood" in most of the ones above.

I had marked and saved so many seeds last fall that I did not need to order more, but I did keep in mind the Stokes Seeds for the Whirligig as I find that variety very special.

ZM - #5 Is STUNNING STUNNING STUNNING, and what I like most about it the burgundy/pink edging around each petal. I have not noticed that in any of your prior picture posts. Of course the purples are grand and I see the Whirligig "blood" in most of the ones above.

I had marked and saved so many seeds last fall that I did not need to order more, but I did keep in mind the Stokes Seeds for the Whirligig as I find that variety very special.

My picture post is definitely not a Whirligig, but it is a little off the beaten path.

Keep zinnia-ian - as it is a countdown of days until frost.

I've done similar with Marigolds this year, tons of looks nobody has for sale. I have tons of seeds if any particular look interests anyone, photos seen here. https://allthingsplants.com/thread/view/28271/Irradiated-Marigolds-monster-flowers/

Hi Brenda,

Yes, #5 was a very special zinnia. I don't remember now whether it was directly from a Whirligig packet, or was the result of a cross between Whirligigs and cactus flowered zinnias. I particularly liked its daisy-like flower form, as well as the unusual petal coloration. I plan to devote my entire South garden to Whirligigs next year. That should finish off that quarter pound of Whirligig seed I bought from Stokes Seeds a few years ago. Interestingly, Stokes got those seeds from a grower in Tanzania.

Your "off the beaten path" zinnia is unique. I like that flower form, but unlike the commercial dahlia flowered zinnias, it really looks like a dahlia. You should definitely save as many seeds from that specimen as you can.

The attached pictures were of scabiosa-based zinnias that had extra full flower forms. One of my on-going objectives is to find a scabiosa flowered zinnia that actually does not have any guard petals at all. Just the full center. Someone here on this forum reported having had one a few years ago, so I know that such a zinnia can exist. I'll be on the lookout for one this Winter and next Spring, and when I find it, I will make a lot of crosses involving it.

ZM

ZM - Your #2 & #5, from what I can see, do not have much, in the way of guard petals - especially # 5. Maybe your objective is closer than you think. I have some zinnia blooms very close to your center photo. I still like the burgundy center as in your # 1 scabiosa above. Your #4 looks skirted.

Thanks for the feedback on my "off the beaten path", it must be unique to get a comment like that from you.

Last eve when I was in my Wetland Garden, where my best zinnia are at present, I noticed a zinnia the color of butterscotch. It was late and about to get dark and the flash taking the picture did not do it justice. The only thing special about it was the color. Maybe I can get a better picture in a day or so.

Hi Brenda,

I look forward to another picture of your "off the beaten path" zinnia. It has a unique flower form. At first glance my last picture does "look like" it has no guard petals, but a closer look reveals them "hiding under" the crested florets. Its short wide guard petals are as good as I can get at the present time, because they are nearly hidden. But I will remain on the lookout for scabious zinnia blooms with no guard petals to hide.

I am a little curious why your zinnias seem to do so well in your Wetland Garden. Here in my rural location in Kansas, my gardens are on cultivated prairie land, which even with my soil amendments, will never approach the moist conditions of a wetland. Back during the drought in 2012, this area was taking on some of the properties of a desert. I was surprised that my zinnias did as well as they did, considering that many of the native plants died in the heat.

I am in the October endgame in my zinnia patch. Mainly concerned with saving seeds now. I don't see much point in making any more cross pollinations now, because a killing frost is likely before any newly pollinated seeds could mature. I am starting to think about my indoor zinnia project now. And continuing my outdoor Fall cleanup.

ZM

ZM - Have you worked with the Thumbelina zinnia?

ZM - I call this garden a "Wetland Garden" because it is in the same field that our wetland was constructed in and there is no way to plant the garden prior to Memorial Day, unless I want to easily loose it to flooding. This year the area was too wet to plant until July 10th, which is the latest I have ever planted it. All of my Wetland Garden was planted July 10th this year. Many of the flowers in the Wetland Garden are volunteers.

In pix #1 (taken while ago) you can see the small wetland in the distance and the Wetland Garden is the colorful area closest to the body of water. There are two zinnia rows and they are both over 300 feet long. In pix #2 the wetland is in the far distance and the most of my Wetland Garden is under water (a prior year). That is why I have to be careful when I plant there. Pix #3 (taken while ago) is the fun one - a section of the Wetland Garden.

Hi Brenda,

I have to say that you live in a beautiful area. And you have done a good job of landscaping. You have enough space for zinnias to make some significant progress.

I have grown Thumbelina zinnias in the past. They are quite remarkable, and their first bloom can open when they are only 3 inches tall, and they eventually form a nice little bush about 6 inches tall. Many years ago, before there were any Peter Pans, Dreamlands, or Magellans, I got the idea that I wanted big flowers on a lower plant, so I crossed tall cactus zinnias with Thumbelinas and got what I wanted, reasonably large zinnia blooms on plants in the 12 to 16 inch tall range. My personal name for those zinnias was "Midgets". Even then, when I was young and flexible, it was quite awkward bending down to pollinize or take pollen from a bloom that was only 3 inches above ground level.

Now that I am older, I don't work with short zinnias at all, because I don't like to bend over or kneel to work with my zinnias. I do as much of my gardening as is practical from a seated position, working on my tractor scoot or a lightweight portable garden bench or rocker seat.

If you are interested in short zinnias like Thumbelina, there are a couple more zinnia varieties that you might want to try out. One is an F1 hybrid named "Zinnita":

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=zinnia+zinnita

Another rather remarkable short zinnia is also an F1 hybrid, named "Short Stuff". Swallowtail Gardens' description is accurate: "The large fully double flowers of this hybrid formula mix reach 2.5-3 inches across and the dwarf 8-10 inch plants are outstanding performers whether massed in the garden or used to brighten sunny patio containers. Colors include Cherry Shades, Coral, Deep Red, Gold, Orange, Scarlet, and White.

http://www.swallowtailgardenseeds.com/annuals/zinnias.html#gsc.tab=0

Some seed companies offer Short Stuff and Zinnita in separate colors. Growers like Short Stuff because a tray of them will be covered with fairly big flowers on small plants, which makes it easy to sell the plants. The downside is they are F1 hybrids, and their seed is fairly expensive, which makes the plants fairly expensive.

If I were working with short zinnias, I would have no qualms about intercrossing several of the F1 hybrids. Such F1 x F1 crosses are actually crosses between unseen "virtual" F2 variants, so the results are "interesting" to say the least. Rose breeders make crosses between crosses between crosses ad nauseam, and it works for them. It works for me with zinnias. I am attaching a few "Razzle Dazzle" zinnia pics.

ZM

Interesting to read. I will think about getting some seeds (to grow, not to hybridize.) Since I like dwarf irises, dwarf zinnias sound good.

ZM - The Thumbelina I'm speaking of is the tall with long stems and very small blooms. They get at least 36" tall. I think it is an very old version of a zinnia heirloom. I - too - do not like to deal with the short zinnia - not enough glory for me. I think the shorter version is fine for smaller areas, but they would look lost in my plantings.

So irisMA give those a try. You may be very pleased. I have heard some good feedback on them.

ZM -Your pix's are outstanding as always. The one in #1-2 is my pick. I think its the multi-color flower petals.

Hi Brenda,

"The Thumbelina I'm speaking of is the tall with long stems and very small blooms."

You might be thinking of Tom Thumb (sometimes called Lilliput) instead of Thumbelina. They have small blooms, but I wouldn't call them tall, in the 16" to 18" range. If you are thinking of landscaping, you might consider the Oklahoma variety. It is an improved Cut-and-Come-Again with lots of long-stemmed 1.5-inch blooms on 36-inch plants.

http://www.hazzardsgreenhouse.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Hazwho&Product_Code=Z3063&Category_Code=

The scabiosa flowered zinnias are somewhat similar, with 1.5 to 2 inch blooms on 36-inch plants.

http://www.hazzardsgreenhouse.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Hazwho&Product_Code=Z9001&Category_Code=

Those 36-inch plants from either the Oklahoma or Scabiosa zinnias would not be "lost" in your plantings. And for taller plants yet, the 48-inch plants of the Benary's Giants or Gigantica zinnias would "hold their own" in a planting.

http://www.hazzardsgreenhouse.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Hazwho&Product_Code=Z3078CT&Category_Code=

http://www.hazzardsgreenhouse.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Hazwho&Product_Code=Z7250&Category_Code=

I think all of the above zinnias are also available in separate colors. I need to grow some more white zinnias next Spring, because I want to do some white x white crossing to get truly giant sized white zinnias. (I don't consider 5-inch blooms as "giant").

ZM

Wow ZM...beautiful blooms. Your photography is really good too, love those detailed close-ups.

A few more zinnia that I have marked to save the seeds from. ZM - Thought you might have some good input on my hybridizing below???

Seems I'm saving a tremendous amount of seeds this year, and I just keep marking the beauties that I'll want to gather a little later after frost. If the seeds dry as well as I expect they will, I would almost be foolish to buy any new seed. It amazes me the many variations that a person can come up with when hybridizing. What FUN. My problem is - I don't just like zinnias - I like just about all flowers. My two rows of zinnia (both over 300 feet long), have now grown together in the center. The weather has been just perfect for them. What can I say?