STARTING OUR 2012 FALL/WINTER VEGGIE GARDENS

Newyorkrita - When I follow the dates listed in the 'guides', I don't get my brassicas to mature, so I start them earlier. July 4 is a standard last planting date for cucumbers around here, and I can plant beans anytime from last frost to mid-July and get a harvest. Chard is also spring to early fall.

Many of the cool weather veggies will not germinate in the heat. I've germinated them in paper towels and plastic bags on the cool tile of my bathroom floor. I did a test run and they would not germinate in the heat. Once they germinated I sowed them directly into 4" nursery pots. Some I put out in the heat some I kept under lights. The ones I put outside really struggled or died. Just like tomatoes and peppers need warmer temps to germinate some cool weather crops need cool temps to germinate and grow.

During the summer I have no trouble starting my hot weather veggies outside, some I direct sow then there is no transplant shock, but some of the cool weather veggies, just won't germinate. There was a temp chart around here somewhere I will try to post a link this weekend.

Rita-depending on how many plants you are starting you can always just put them in a sunny window or use a cheap shop light. I grow 1000s of seedlings a year and that's all I use.

Cyb-is that your cut off because they won't ripen before a freeze? My family is from there, I didn't realize it was zone 5. I feel that way here, except for a few extreme years I feel like I can start anything at anytime as long as it has time to ripen before it freezes.

I am thinking this is a very good discussion about starting the Fall season veggies. Lots of input from different regions.

I guess I could start some inside in a window. I start some of my warm season veggies inside like this. That is I fill reused cell packs with fresh potting soil and put my cucumber seeds in them and now have cucumber seedlings. But I keep them in the kitchen, where it is warm.

Lettuce, I think, needs cool temps to germinate. I have lettuce seeds, onlion seeds and even Bok Choy (which I am not sure if I will start or not). But then might as well start it. Nothing to loose but the price of a packet of seeds. Maybe use the indoor method for these? For the brocoli also. To get more light I can bring them outside as soon as they sprout.

But for the peas, I have far too many for me to deal with doing anything but direct sowing. Kinda went overboard on the Fall pea seeds but I want to try these types I have for myself and see what I like best as I will have the room for fall planting them.

I'm not thinking too much about fall yet since I've got a big project going on that's taking all my attention. We just jackhammered up a concrete pad in the back yard and after we carry away all the remnants of that, we need to put down some brick walkways, put out 7 raised beds and get irrigation to those. But I do plant to plant peas, lettuce, carrots, radishes, tomatoes, brussels sprouts, sweet potatoes, potatoes, and Gymgirl has talked me into trying broccoli again.

Mindy in Tucson

Gymgirl's VERY good at talking people into things....LOL....

Today I cleaned and bleached my grow containers. I have 14 8-packs so that's 112 cells. All tomatoes. Tomorrow I'll seed the cells, place in a dark room on heat mats and see how everything does. The plan is to plant out in August to get a good tomato supply before our first frost. All toms are 60 DTM or less.

It will still be very hot in August but I think the roots like that, I'll have to protect the plants from sun scald but I think I can do it. Most of the plants will be sold to others, keeping only a dozen or so for myself.

I just manage to share my passion! Can't help it if I'm contagious!!

MaryMcP!
Way to share!!! That post is so helpful to me. Y'all know I'm NOT good with the planting scheduling. No joke folks. I'v been going thru last year's garden diary, and it's already saving me some grief!

Question: I've already pulled suckers from my tomato plants to start rooting some stock for a fall effort. I think it's time for the vines to come down. i have eggplants that are ready to go outside in their place. I've read it's best to cut the plant just below the soil and not dig it out, so as to not disturb the soil microstructure. But how do I plant the eggplant seedlings with the tomato stems in the way?

Thank you all for your contributions to this discussion. Very informative stuff.

Where is everybody?

I spent the weekend going through my seeds. It's a good think I kept records last fall/wtr. I logged in where the seeds were purchased, the year, how many I sowed, and how many actually germinated. I got a pretty clear picture of which seeds may not be viable for planting this season. Good thing I followed my mind and ordered some fresh seeds!

But, ever up for an experiment, I'll sow half of the 2010 seeds, and half of the new seeds. Yah never know, and nothing beats a wish but a try. Plus, I didn't order from the same company this time, so, no telling what the fresh seeds will do either.

I checked Dr. Bob Randle's Big Book for gardening in the Houston area, and looks like there's a planting schedule that goes something like this for year round gardening: Sow seeds every OTHER month beginning in early summer (June-August-Oct). This way, there's always some seedling or other available to plug into any holes in the veggie patch. It's more of a succession planting schedule, and, I'm gonna try to follow it this season, to see if it works for me.

I'd rather have something going at all times, and no big holes or empty RBs.

Also, regarding that Bayou Gardener video on starting onion plants in a container. He used an old trough, 8" deep, by 1 foot wide, and 6' long, then transplanted them into the garden. I'm thinking a short piece of gutter would do the trick on a smaller scale, perhaps? Worth a try. I'm hoping to sow the onion seeds by mid-August, to transplant by early November. My first season with onions, I planted them January 8th and had a fine crop. But, I've read the longer they grow, the larger they get, so I could still plant some in November, and again in January. Worth a shot.

That's my weekend report. Too hot to be out in the yard much. Stinkbugs moving in on the few remaining tomatoes on my vines. About to take them down to plant out the eggplants, squash, and cukes that already are filled with blossoms, inside the house!

Hugs all!

Godspeed, and Good Harvest!

Linda

This spring I was cleaning house in my seed storage and germination tested everything over 1 year old. Pretty much everything was fine. While there are seeds (like lettuce) that fell off in their performance quickly, most everything as nearly 100% germination going back to my oldest seeds still in the box from 2006. The one exception was some of my seeds I saved in 2010. They were like 50% -- I think my seed saving techniques needed improvement that year.

I haven't seen squash bugs yet this year but the Japanese beetles are moving in. I have seen assassin bugs. And the aphids were horrible this spring but the lady bugs moved in and I haven't seen a single aphid on my summer crops; usually my tomatoes get them.

It rained all day yesterday and likely today. I did get out in a break and harvested some zucchini, blackberries and blueberries, but that's a daily thing right now. A little weeding this AM while the ground was wet -- it's a lot easier to dig those &^%#$^! violet tubers out when the ground is wet. Otherwise this weekend I chopped down my dying trees and did some thinking about the layout of the garden extension. Going to call a fence company today for quotes on a nice picket fence to go around the garden and another idea I have.

You have holes in your veggie patch, Linda? I always have the opposite problem -- time for fall crops to go in and nowhere to put them.

I've planted many "off the reservation" varieties, mostly hybrids, and loved a few of them but drat, they phase out of sale on a regular basis - guess the plant breeders have to go with the "new models" they create without regard to us home gardeners. Green Comet was my favorite broccoli, just try to find it these days - Southern Comet is the replacement!

Anyway...this is the Travis County TX Master Gardener trialed variety list:
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/travis/docs/VegetableVarietiesTravisCounty2010.pdf
AND planting guide - keep in mind this shifts depending on the weather:
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/travis/docs/VegetablePlantingCalendar2010.pdf

Hays County TX List:
http://hays.agrilife.org/files/2011/08/recommendedvegetablevarietiesforhayscounty_3.pdf

Your county Extension office usually has a web site with recommended varieties and if you have a Master Gardener group they can help. Organic gardening clubs also have their favorites.

Another option is to look up CSA (organic farmers that sell to the public) farm web pages to track the vegetable varieties they grow such as Boggy Creek Farm located in Austin with their satellite farm in Milam County. They give out a report on varieties grown and available:
http://www.boggycreekfarm.com/pages/news-of-the-farm-current-issue.php

Happy Gardening!

Oh...another tip: Johnny's Selected Seed commercial catalog (great reference) has soil temp vs. % germination charts for all vegetable species. I have a short probe, dial faced soil thermometer that I use to take noon day soil temp 5 days in a row then average to see if temps are in range before I start planting. Of course so many other factors come into to play...

www.johnnyseeds.com/



This message was edited Jun 11, 2012 10:00 AM

NicoleC,
I only have one RB. Before this season, all my gardening was in eBuckets and free-draining buckets. Once the RB was built, I planted only 4-5 tomato plants in it, then had to curtail my spring gardening activity for awhile. I had to go inside to attend to the house. I'd much rather live in my yard! So, all I've had to tend to was the almost empty RB with the tomato plants!

A couple weeks ago I planted 17 bell pepper plants in the bed, on the opposite end. They're just now taking off. I have about 25 eggplant seedlings, 3 cuke seedlings, 1 Zucchini squash seedling in the house under lights. The eggplants are about 8-10" tall, and are ready to go in. The cukes and the zuke all have buttercup yellow blossoms all over them! Actually, I've been rustling them when I can, to hopefully make some pollen fly so that when I put them out, they'll take off.

I scored one side of a baby crib frame, and will use it as a lean-to trellis for the cukes. And, I have the mat'ls to build a squash teepee. My only concern is, soon as I put the squash out, the SVB will kill it. But, I'm working on an idea from MaryMcP? Honeybee? about setting the transplant it in a toilet paper or PVC sleeve when I plant it. Seems the SVB comes up out of the soil to get to the vine, and if the sleeve is in place, I may stand a chance the moth won't get to that first 3-6" of vine to lay eggs for the larva.

I'm going to take down the tomato vines today, and plant the eggplants on that end. The plan is to build another two beds for my brassicas (cabbages, broccoli, cauliflowers), next to the 1st bed, but more shaded. I've observed they do better in a bit of bright shade, out of direct sunlight. Plus, when the season starts warming up, that shade cover helps extend the growing time frame, a bit. I did some research on what follows the tomatoes, and found that Broccoli after tomatoes actually benefits from something or other the tomato plants leave in the soil. So, after the eggplants are done, the broccoli should be ready to be transplanted in their place, along with the cauliflower, and maybe some potatoes on the other end? Not sure if that would work to put spuds in that bed. I do have several 25 gallon tubs I could use for the spuds.

I'll also have a bed for the root crops: onions and carrots, turnips and beets. And, I can plant greens, lettuce, and spinach in my Earthboxes.

That's the plan. We shall see how it turns out!

This is from last fall/wtr., four months after transplanting the crop outside.

The new RB is now on this spot. The other two will also go on this spot.

Linda

Thanks, Garden_Sass!

Gymgirl? dont plant on top of the old roots, move sideways an inch or two and space in a different pattern than previously

Thanks, Kitt!

Stinkbugs are moving in with a vengeance! Good thing I only have a few tomatoes left, and the vines are coming down this weekend!

I cringe to thing what my neighbor's tomato patch looks like....they don't keep ahead of the Stinkbug nymphs...

I think I'm going to order some seeds today for fall. I know I want some beets (for the hubby), broccoli, burgundy bush beans, lettuces, and some kind of carrots. Not sure what else will catch my fancy.

steph, aren't bush beans a summer crop?

hubby says I can plant all the obama beans I want but he forbids me to plant bush beans. hahahah

Cute, Mary...LOL!

Steph,
If you're just ordering Broccoli, check out "Arcadia". It is an absolutely GORGEOUS plant, even if you never get a head of broccoli. Beautiful blue-green leaves. I'm certainly including this again in my edible landscaping!

Another plus: These plants never seem to die! They just keep cranking out sizeable side shoots LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG after the head is cut. In fact, I have some from last August, that have grow back on the stems I left in the eBuckets! Even the heat from the spring didn't take 'em out.

However, once the aphids moved in, I went ahead and cut them down. I think they'd still be furling in the wind otherwise...

Linda

I ordered the following today:

Carrots (Danvers 126 & Scarlet Nantes)
Royal Burgundy Bush Beans
Early Wonder Beets
Calabrese Broccoli
Lettuces--Lolly Rosa, Ruby, Bronze Mignonette, & Buttercrunch
Peas--Little Marvel
Bloomsdale Long Standing Spinach
Dill
Cilantro, Slow-bolt
Parsley, Dark Green Italian

I may still do some shopping for other things. Just gotta see how it works out.

Last year I direct sowed "Green Goliath" broccoli seeds on Sept 8th and cut the first head on Nov 16th.

I've purchased "Arcadia" seeds for this winter's crop, and "Green Magic" for 2013 spring crop.

I'm trying to get a handle on when to start seeds for an extended spring crop. Seems we go from freezing cold to blazing heat in about two weeks, starting from the end of February to the end of March (well, almost...)

Seriously. It seems like our spring window with temps cool enough to keep the brassicas from bolting would have me planting seedlings out between mid-Jan to mid-Feb, under some kind of protective cover. Then, they'd have to grow like lighting to mature by the heat of April. I do have some heat-tolerant varieties, so it might be do-able.

Is that how ya'll are timing it?

Thanks

Linda - when I lived in South Florida, (zone 10a) I grew broccoli in the winter and had great success. I didn't keep records back then, so don't know when I sowed seeds, but it was probably in late September or early October after the best part of hurricane season was over.

http://www.zipdatamaps.com/33418

Ok, Bee.

Then, I've got the timing down pat! I'll be starting some of my broccoli and cauliflower seedlings the end of this month, for staggered out planting from mid-August through December 20th. That'll carry the growth over until mid-April, or when the plants bolt from the heat.

I had a fantastic crop last season! I was doing it correctly all along, and just didn't know it! I started all my broccoli, cauliflower, BS, and cabbage seeds on August 6 & 7th, and again on August 20 & 21st.

This time, I'll add a second sowing around October 6 & 7th, and again the 20 & 21st.

Hugs!

Linda

Linda - staggered planting is always a good idea. Do you get frost where you live? I usually count back from the first fall frost date, and go from there.

I also "feel the air" - something I can't explain, but it tells me when it's good and when it's not. Unfortunately, climate change has made it difficult to judge things the way I've done in the past.

Bee,
I'd say Houston doesn't get any significant freezes during our winter season, except for about 5-10 days with below freezing temps between mid-January to approximately the end of February. Those are our coldest periods. And, the freezes aren't usually sustained. In Houston, we usually have a late night/early morning freeze, then the temps go back up into the mid-40s or higher during the (mostly) sunny days. We might have one, two, three times when we'll have freezes that last more than just overnight. And, then, usually no more than 3-4 days in a row, if that many.

So, all in all, our winters aren't headline news, which is why we can grow cold weather veggies from the time it gets cool, all the way through to next March. That's a long period of growing time (almost five months), and I can make better use of the large window by staggering further into the season.

Last season, I started and planted everything at the same time. This only made for one large harvest, all at once. Staggering will allow me a broader period of harvest over the entire season.

Gymgirl, I agree with Linda. Even here, I plant my frost hardy crops in the late fall -- pretty much brassicas. The brassicas stop growing for a while when it gets too cold in the winter, then resume growing in the spring. Down your way they may not even go dormant.

Kale just grows all winter no matter how cold it gets. Too bad I don't like kale!

NicoleC,
Gymgirl IS Linda! LOL!

Northern Ohio had fields of cabbages growing. Saw 2 diff sizes of growth, but they looked really good. Most folx get their humidity in the spring, Houston is prone to dry springs and wet summers when weather is better on track, but the south has a lot of probs with cabbage loopers and crews, so I quit messing with most brassicas, tho we do have a very good new broccoli that likes Hou area, can't get to records to find what I had planted

Kitt,
I grew Arcadia Broccolis for the first time last fall/wtr., and had a wonderful crop. And the rest of the brassicas did very well, too. I think I only picked off about 8 cabbage worms all season.

Linda

My bad, I meant HoneyBee!

That is a shame! Ever try a good old fashioned recipe for the soup? Potatoes flavored with onions and a good strong Portuguese sausage (or any you like) in a meat or vegetable broth with as much (or little) kale to give color and nutrition. Cook it until the kale is falling apart - you'll never notice it's there (but your body will - it's one of the very best vegetable sources of many essential nutrients, and the minerals aren't bothered by cooking).

Here are two by Emeril (http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emeril-lagasse/emerils-kicked-up-kale-soup-recipe/index.html) and Rachael Ray (http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/rachael-ray/portuguese-chourico-and-kale-soup-recipe/index.html), but a Google search will turn up dozens of variations.

I recently found that the variety of "kale" used for the Portuguese version of the soup may not be one of our familiar curly kales or even the "new" small dark Tuscan kale (Nero, "Dinosaur", Lacinato, etc.), but something rather different and maybe milder. Called "Galega de Folhas Lisas (Smooth Green Leaf)", it is sold by Seeds From Italy (http://www.growitalian.com/kale-galega-de-folhas-lisas-smooth-green-leaf-35-11/). It looks like a cross between a kale and a loose-leaf cabbage. I'm going to try it this fall

As for myself, I just render a little pancetta in a deep pot, add some finely chopped fresh garlic and then a little liquid (water, stock or broth) when it just starts to color up to keep it from burning, add chopped kale and toss to coat, add a good amount of sea salt, fresh ground black pepper and some chili flakes and whatever else inspires me, cover and let cook over a slow heat until it is tender.

-Rich

Rich, I've tried a bunch of ways, I just don't like it. I can grow a bumper crop of kale, too.

That Smooth Green Leaf kale looks more like a collard to me. It's splitting hairs, I know, but maybe you can report back if it tastes like kale or taste like collard.

Fortunately spinach does well for me in the winter, too, and I love me some spinach.

I use Kale as a trap crop for cabbage worms! LOL

So your the one responsible for all those cabbage moth Butterflies(LOL)!!

Oh geez, my kale is COVERED in those green cabbage butterfly caterpillers. Darn near impossible to see. But the birds help me, the catbirds love to go in there and hunt for worms.

Makes me wonder how well I will do with the fall crop of brocoli and brocoli raab I have planned. Have the seeds already but not ready to start them yet.

Just went and read the directions on my brocoli seeds which say 120 days to maturity. 4 months, wow, I had forgotten that they take so long. So will get this seeds started either this evening or probably tomorrow.

I also have brocoli raab but those seeds say 60 to 80 days going to hold off planting them. Then there will also be peas for fall but again not yet ready to plant.

Rita,
The good thing about the fall wtr gardens is far LESS bugs to deal with! They must hibernate or something. But look out when it warms up again cause those babies wake up HUNGRY!!!

Kale? Bleck!! It grows like a weed here. Round up that junk! Or juice it when you have an upset stomach.....it's better than than Ipecac.

I've decide to spray Dipel from now on when there's a worm problem. For a home garden sized area the price is pretty cheap if you mix it yourself, and it doesn't hurt anything except the worms eating your crops.