What's going on with your Veggie Garden: Part 3

I'm putting out eggplants this weekend, and starting more pole beans. Ripping the tomatoe vines, and tending the bell pepper plants.

BTW, my bell pepper plants are a putrid shade of yellow. 14 out of 16. Two are a nice green. any Ideas why the yellowing? I'm thinking either overwatering, or too much fertilizer. I've been spot composting in the raised bed, and there might be too many nutrients in there.

LMK!

Thanks!

Linda

Mine are also like that Linda and I've not fertilized for several weeks. I think mine is lack of nitrogen. Gonna toss some cornmeal on the ground around them and see if that helps.

Nitrogen? Cornmeal? Am I missing something? Adding cornmeal should exacerbate any nitrogen deficiency because it is a very readily available carbon source. As it breaks down, the bacteria / fungi will suck up any nitrogen that is still present.

Were you maybe thinking of soybean or cottonseed meal?

-Rich

No, I've always been told that cornmeal was a good source of nitrogen. I can also add blood meal.

Food grade cornmeal; isn't a very good source, but the horticultural grade is.

Corn gluten meal is good for pre-emergent weed control.

Yes, I use the horticultural grade.

My dilemma is I will end up with lush greenery (like last season) and NO fruits, from too much nitrogen. Which is why I haven't added any.

I did introduce some worm castings, and rock phosphate into the hole at planting time. That's about all, except one watering with MG water soluble plant food for veggies.

Puzzling.

Linda, I think your peppers are in need of some nitrogren. Try some blood meal if you have it, or composted chicken manure.

http://www.territorialseed.com/product/8113

Linda,

Leaves that are healthy, no dead parts or bugbites, but just yellow, are probably suffering from either a lack of chlorophyll, from lack of direct sunlight, or too much water preventing mineral uptake and oxygen.

A good moisture meter that will penetrate eight inches is a real problem solver. For trees you need to be able to penetrate about a foot.

I have very pale yellow, almost white, leaves inside the very dense grapearbor vines and some yellow leaves on tomatoes inside the denser bushes. but as they are healthy otherwise, i am not concerned about them. But the part i do not have a suggestion for is why 2 of them are okay and the others yellow, unless those two plants are not getting the water the others are.

Thanks, guys.

I think it may be a watering issue. I really don't wanna put more nitrogen in before I rule out everything else, cause I've been trying to grow a bell pepper for the last three years! All I've managed to get is miniature half dollar size peppers, or lush green foliage and no fruit...

So, I've been holding back on the water. We got major rains last Thursday night and all day Friday, and the old one-digit meter showed the soil is still moist 2" down, well above the root zone, so, I'd conclude it's still pretty moist down there.

If I see no improvement by Monday, I'll go ahead and side dress with some blood meal. I also read somewhere yesterday that bell peppers didn't need a look of additional ferts, because of that lush growth and no fruits thing. Which is why I chose to go with the rock phosphate, to build up a good strong root system, for healthy plants that would crank out more fruit.

Thanks!

Steph, do you have an actual source for this information? The only references I am able to find for using the corn meal in the garden is as a fungicide.

Of course, like any organic material corn has minerals that are released as it breaks down. But the total protein content of corn is approximately 3%, while the starch content is around 70%. Using the standard protein/nitrogen conversion factor of 6.25, this equates to a nitrogen content of 0.48%. In the long run, it may supply some nitrogen to the soil, but in the short term it will act as a drain on the available nitrogen because the carbohydrates supplied by the starches will stimulate the soil microorganisms to multiply, and they will use up any available nitrogen in the process. That's why it can work as a fungicide; presumably it selectively increases the populations of "healthy" as opposed to pathogenic microbes.

Corn GLUTEN meal might be more useful. With a protein content closer to 10% and a lower starch content, it might release nitrogen a little faster. But if I needed a quick shot of nitrogen and was determined to stick to "organic" sources I'd go with fish emulsion or blood meal.

-Rich

Rich, et al,
It just occurred to me that ya'll might be right about the nitrogen. My raised bed is built with a predominance of pine bark fines and chunks in the mix. I forgot that I was told I might need to ADD nitrogen to the bed, as the pine bark would LEACH the nitrogen!

I have fish emulsion and blood meal and will go ahead and add some tomorrow. I'll give a report on Monday.

Thanks!

I forgot about fish emulsion - yes that should work even quicker than blood meal.

Great! I'll give 'em a hit of fish emulsion this evening! I've used it once before in a hose end sprayer. I mix 2 tbsp. into some water in the canister, then attach the hose and spray.

I don't hold back on the fertilizer. When the plants start looking like they need something I give it to them, but really I consider that to be too late.

I do like the Espoma line myself, at least for preparation. Then I'm not opposed to a little Miracle Grow (the standard stuff) or a trace element spray. I try to limit magnesium, because around here at least it's correlated with bacterial spot diseases.

-Rich

Just for accuracy, "leaching" would be washing through (as from watering or rain moving the fertilizer down in the soil beyond the reach of the roots). That certainly could happen in a very loose medium - it's one of the advantages of using solid naturally-slow-release sources, since they're less subject to undesired movement - but the other thing that happens is that the naturally-occurring microorganisms grab and incorporate the nitrogen into their own cells as they grow and multiply.

-Rich

I can't refer you to an online source, Rich, but Steve Solomon says in "Garden When it Counts" in the Compost chapter and also in his composting book (the name escapes me right now) that seedmeals have a C:N of 6:1, which is about as low as it gets. Only bloodmeal, hoof and horn meal and fish wastes are lower at 3:1.

Anything under 20:1 causes the immediate release of nitrate at the expense of soil humus.

Just so you don't think I'm just an armchair quarterback ;o) Here are: Bell Pepper Red Knight 3XR, Bell Pepper Orion, Early Bell Sunsation (ripens bright yellow), Corno di Toro Giallo, and Purple Marconi.

Nicole, the problem with the statement is that it is only partly correct and unfortunately misleading as a consequence. Maybe Mr. Solomon assumes you will do your own further research, but in agricultural terminology, "seed meals" are quite distinct from "grain" meals. I am NOT arguing that grains aren't seeds, but in agriculture high protein "seed meal" means defatted soybean meal (average protein content 48%), defatted cottonseed meal (avg. 23% protein), defatted sunflower meal (avg. protein 26%), defatted canola seed meal (avg. protein 40.9%) etc. That translates roughly into total nitrogen contents of 7.7%, 3.7%, 4.2% and 6.5%.

You see the pattern here, I'm sure. These are seed crops that produce oils instead of lots of starch (like grains) - and the meal is what's left over after the oil (the principal carbon source) has been extracted. All of these are valued as feed supplements for cattle, fish farms, etc., which helps explain why they can be costly - you're competing with livestock farmers. Often what we get are meals that are not quite up to feed-grade standards (e.g. because of spoilage as from too much rain around harvest time).

In any case, they are all MUCH higher in total nitrogen than corn meal (or any cereal grain meal) and MUCH lower in competing carbon.

-Rich

rjogden, Nice job.

Are you the guy who uses SuperBloom on peppers? Some body here on DG does and their plants load up with blooms and set peppers early on in the season. Their plants and peppers looked very good.

Horticultural cornmeal has an N-P-K ratio of 9-1-0. So pretty high in nitrogen for organic. Yes, it is good for weed control and fungal control, but it also is a good source or nitrogen.

Some more, for the heat seekers. Bishops Crown (a C. baccatum), Cantina (medium hot, used for stuffing), Tepin (thought to be close to the original wild C. annuum), Lemon Drop (another hot C. baccatum), and last (but hardly least) one of my Bhut Jolokia strains. I'll try to post more as smoe of the rest develop and especially when I get some colors developing (I've been mostly picking the ones that have ripened, before the birds have a chance at them).

-Rich

rjogden
well done !
I shall call you the "Pepper Uber" !

Beautiful!! My peppers are paltry this spring.

I'm not contesting that HCM is a source of protein, though I have seen other much lower numbers, and the fact that that analysis is virtually the same as that of the gluten (which is mostly the protein fraction) makes me suspicious of those numbers - especially the nitrogen. What is your source?

Considering that the crude protein content of corn is generally around 8%, it is a bit hard to believe that the nitrogen content of the meal is higher. The rule of thumb for determining protein content from nitrogen analysis (which is immeasurably easier to measure than protein) is in the neighborhood of 6.25. Meaning that the protein (which contains much more than just nitrogen) is MUCH HIGHER than the measured nitrogen, by an average of 6.25X. Which means in turn that any corn meal with an analysis of 9% nitrogen would contain 56.25% protein! That is significantly higher even than soy, and I'm sure there are many farmers who would love to get their hands on those seeds!

Also, the number that is NOT included in fertilizer analysis figures but which can be critically important to organic fertilizer sources is the C:N ratio.

-Rich

rjogden, I am just now getting into the super hot peppers. Last year I grew the Bhut Jolokia and enjoyed the aroma and flavor, but it is very hot.

Have you ever visited http://thehotpepper.com/index.php? There are some interesting happenings going on over there. One I am interested in is making and fermenting hot pepper mash for hot pepper sauce.

How do you use your hot peppers?

Ah, I missed the word "ratio". If that is straight from the source you're quoting, be aware that "ratio" is not ever a legal description of fertilizer content.

The term "analysis" is the legal definition of fertilizer strength adopted almost universally.

The "analysis" for a 9-1-0 "ratio" could be 0.09 - 0.01 - 0.00. Let the buyer beware.

-Rich

Ya'll just went technical on me, and I'm real bad at deciphering that language, LOL.

So, in a nutshell, what should I do for these yellowing bell pepper plants? LOLOLOL!

P.S. Rich, I'm also growing Early Sunsation Bells for the first time!

I soooooooooooooooooooooooo want bell peppers that look like Rich's!!!

Linda

No, I've never tried "SuperBloom".

Way back in the 70's when I was at the U of GA we did some research on a number of products that were supposed to stimulate plant growth, most of them based on seaweed extracts. Research had shown that some products contain measurable concentrations of cytokinins, which are known plant hormones that affect growth.

I did some preliminary research using 6-BA (a commercial cytokinin) and found that seeds soaked in it and then germinated showed very marked changes in root development. Some of the other unpublished research (done under contract with the company supplying the materials) showed varying results. Some of the plant/spray combinations (we used tomatoes) did demonstrate better growth, but not necessarily better fruiting. A lot of what we saw could have been attributed simply to differences in trace element content that could be supplied more cheaply from other sources. In commercial horticulture, even if something works it has to add to the bottom line (make more money than it costs), something not of as much concern to us gardeners.

-Rich

I don't hang out there. Not that I wouldn't - but if I participated in every forum and newslist for all the things that interest me, I would never get anything else done. Peppers are actually just a small part of my gardening interests, and gardening is only one of my hobbies. This year it's peppers, partly because I love the varieties, the way they look, taste, smell; partly because I can grow so many different types in such a small space; and partly because I enjoy cooking (another "hobby" I suppose). My favorites so far are still the good old serrano varieties, but they don't dry well (especially down here in the land of liquid sunshine). I love the fruitiness of some of the other species besides the usual C. annuums everyone knows. I am NOT really a fan of the superhots, just curious (and they make great squirrel/rabbit repellents for my fruit trees, if I can ever learn to keep them off my skin). I've also got a Naga Morich and a Trinidad Scorpion starting to ripen fruit - I'll try to get those posted soon.

But I'm equally interested in the mild habs - I've currently got Aji Dulce, Aji Dulce Amarillo (yellow), Aji Dulce Long, Cacho Negro (dark brown fruit), Trinidad Perfume, Manabi Sweet, NuMex Suave Orange, Tobago Seasoning, Vicentes Sweet, and one known only as "PI 439416", the accession number given to the plants produced from an intentional cross. All of them are technically "habañeros", they look incredibly hot, and the ones that have ripened so far (from the "PI" plant) actually have that "hot" smell - but that one at least has absolutely NO heat on the tongue, just that wonderfully citrusy flavor. I'm including a picture of that fruit.

And I was quite surprised by a pepper I almost threw out (ran out of space). Named Criollo Sella, it produces small hot bright yellow fruit that have an incredible aroma and flavor. I rescued the plant (it was fruiting in the cell pack) and got it into a pot, and it is growing very well (for having been little more than a stick).

-Rich

I could be wrong -- corn seed meal isn't found here; we have cottonseed meal -- but I was under the impression that horticultural corn meal was made from oil corn, not flint/dent types.

Here's a link to a specific high-oil corn used as a dairy feed, comparing its protein content to that of "typical" oil corn (http://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/hocorn/hoc_dairy_ni_041900.htm). It indicates the protein content is 9.83 vs. 9.23 for other corn. That equates to a nitrogen analysis of 1.57%.

Another published research paper (http://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/hocorn/agf137no.htm, table 2 - about halfway down the article) shows a protein content for "High Oil" corn of 8.0 - 9.0%. Even removing the oil (which accounts for 7.2 - 8.2% of the total weight) you end up with a protein content in the resulting meal cake of only about 10% - or 1.6% nitrogen. The same research indicates the starch content of HIGH OIL corn is between 66.2% and 67.9% (compared with 71.3-73.4% for dent corn).

Bottom line here - there is still a LOT more starch than protein, even in "oil corn", and the total nitrogen of the meal after pressing never exceeds 1.6%. Ultimately, even at its best, corn is not an "oilseed". (So, my agronomy professors were not wrong...)

-Rich

finally! harvesting cukes, zukes, and peppers. tons of tomatoes on the plants but all green still. Should have string beans to harvest in a week or so.

-Vaughn

Pictures from today's harvest. Cukes, new mexico peppers, and poblanos.


-Vaughn

This message was edited Jun 16, 2012 7:00 PM

What kind of cucumbers are you growing?

Steph: I got a late start on cucumbers and just got some Bonnie Burpless seedlings from HD


-Vaughn

Thanks! They look like a fun cuke to grow!

Vaughn,

How's your okra doing?? Finally got a few Burgundy going and remember some of your problems...

Cukes & peppers are looking good...

Saw my first stink bug, or it may have been a squash bug, yesterday. Ugh!!

Kevin,

My first round of okra (cajun delight) got eaten by the deer. My second round of Burgundy is about a foot tall in containers. I also have about 15 Burgundy seedlings about 8" tall and ready to transplant. I'll plant those after my bush beans are ready (bout a week or 2).


-Vaughn