Hmmm, I just remembered to check some of my own bookmarked resources. I found this on the Central Texas Gardener (TV show) website:
•Early—Mid Month: Arugula, Broccoli, Cabbage, Cauliflower, Chinese Cabbage, Collard Greens, Kohlrabi
•Mid—Late Month: Carrot, Endive, Lettuce, Spinach, Turnip
•ALL Month: Beets, Chard, Garlic, Mustard, Multiplier Onion, Radish
It doesn't indicate whether these are seeds or transplants, but if it's seeds, looks like I still have a lot of choices.
New raised beds!
LiseP?
Go girl! Throw those seeds on out and take plenty pictures!
The mustards, collard and cauliflower plants I scalped are all putting out new leaves. They SO want to cooperate and live!
Linda
Done! - got lettuce, kale, spinach, cauliflower, broccoli and chard planted.
I had hubby take a few photos today, so here is a little montage.
Upper left pic - foreground is a hanging basket that I put some bok choy in. Of all the places I planted it, it loves this spot the most. I'm thinking it's because of the saucer below, that can keep wicking moisture up to it (?). Behind that is one of my new boxes, my struggling cinder blocks, and a zucchini -- I'll be picking the first zucchini from it tomorrow or the next day. In the corner is my mostly white cat taking a nap and crushing some corn I threw in there for fun (son's request). It hasn't got a chance, but it's fun to see it grow a little anyway.
Upper right pic - I was trying to show my beans on the patio trellis to the left, but it's in shadow in late afternoon sun. On the right is my original raised bed, in which I have some tomatoes and a few other things.
Bottom pic - You can see both my new boxes, and a glimpse behind me of a couple cabbages in pots.
Good job on the mustards, collard and cauliflower plants, Linda. Glad they're coming back for you!
Darn, let's try this again. I'll repost my message and this time actually ATTACH the photo, lol!
Done! - got lettuce, kale, spinach, cauliflower, broccoli and chard planted.
I had hubby take a few photos today, so here is a little montage.
Upper left pic - foreground is a hanging basket that I put some bok choy in. Of all the places I planted it, it loves this spot the most. I'm thinking it's because of the saucer below, that can keep wicking moisture up to it (?). Behind that is one of my new boxes, my struggling cinder blocks, and a zucchini -- I'll be picking the first zucchini from it tomorrow or the next day. In the corner is my mostly white cat taking a nap and crushing some corn I threw in there for fun (son's request). It hasn't got a chance, but it's fun to see it grow a little anyway.
Upper right pic - I was trying to show my beans on the patio trellis to the left, but it's in shadow in late afternoon sun. On the right is my original raised bed, in which I have some tomatoes and a few other things.
Bottom pic - You can see both my new boxes, and a glimpse behind me of a couple cabbages in pots.
Good job on the mustards, collard and cauliflower plants, Linda. Glad they're coming back for you!
Oh Lise! What a very nice corner of the yard - and when they are full of growing greens it will be stunning. Good job, I know that was a lot of work.
Thanks, MaryMcP. I love how other gardeners can get excited with me, I'm sure other folks would just think I'm nuts to be so excited about a box of dirt, lol.
I forgot to mention that you can see in the bottom pic how I'm taking a suggestion from another thread and laying down leaves as walkway material between and around the boxes. Whoever it was, I'm grateful for the suggestion.
Really looking good, LiseP!
At the end of this season, you can scoop up those decomped leaves and throw them into the boxes!
Nice bed Lise! Looks like mine, Mine is 3 x 8'. 10" deep.
LiseP - I use leaves in the walkways, so perhaps it was my post you read.
Gymgirl, I spent this past weekend gathering-up some of last years decomposed leaves, and the castings the worms had made from them, to top-up a raised bed.
"Box of dirt"!!
With that nice soil mix you filled it with, more like the Holy Grail. (envy)
I agree with the idea of adding decomposed leaves every year. I think you started with 1/9th compost, not counting the pine bark that will decompose slowly for 3-5 years. Soil, especially well-aerated soil, can always use more compost.
Corey
LiseP,
Did you go with the perlite or the paver sand?
Linda, on the perlite vs paver sand - I went about half and half, except for the last 4x4 section, when I had run out of both. I threw in a few handfuls of playsand, but I was afraid to add much since it's so fine-grained. I'll be adding more of the perlite/paver sand when I get some. The paver sand is cheaper, but the sheer weight of it sort of freaks me out. It seems weird that they are interchangeable but I guess it's not the weight that is the issue, it's the ability to provide drainage.
RickCorey_Wa, thanks for the nice comments. I've got 2 bins of compost working, so will be adding that stuff before too long. And after the comments from you and HoneybeeNC, maybe I can put it in before it's totally finished (?) -- except that it's not all leaves, I've got kitchen veggie scraps in there too, so I don't know.
HoneybeeNC, I was almost sure it was your suggestion to put leaves in the walkways, but I didn't want to get it wrong. Now, I can say thanks! It has been very helpful in keeping my feet from getting muddy, now that I'm watering around there, and I hope it will keep the weeds down too. (If not, next time I rake up the leaves, I'll put weed barrier down).
One question on putting the leaves in the walkways, 'cause I had to put a tarp into service to walk where it had rained.
How do you keep the dried leaves from blowing all over? Seems like wetting them down is defeating the purpose of having them in place to keep your feet dry. Am I missing something?
>> maybe I can put it in before it's totally finished (?)
That's what I hear from many people, although those that spot-compost kitchen scraps do say they bury the raw scraps in holes. My belief is that, if you top-dress with compost instead of turning it under, it's better to let things compost at least until they look not-so-much like kitchen scraps. Maybe that is just a cosmetic preference, or a way to deter rodents and pets from getting too interested.
I personally prefer to compost in a compost pile until everything that isn't woody blurs together into a brown peaty-soily blur. Why? I suppose mainly because that's the way I did it as a kid and I'm slow to change my habits.
I guess it does make sense: since the greatest value of compost is feeding worms and soil microbes, why not put everything fresh and whole right into the soil and let them dine at home? Maybe more nutrients go into the soil that way. But I like compost to look more like soil before I put it into a bed.
Corey
Scraps will attract animals, if they can smell the scraps. Bury them in a deep hole and cover well, and shouldn't have a problem..
This message was edited Oct 18, 2011 9:35 AM
For me, Linda, it's preferable to walk on wet leaves instead of pure slick mud, so I'm okay with wet leaves. My leaves are very tiny so they tend to lie flat.
I can't say about the blowing, but there's a wind advisory out right now this evening, so maybe I'll be able to offer an opinion on it tomorrow, lol!
Gymgirl - the leaves do tend to blow all over the yard, but our back yard is covered in leaves, so it doesn't matter too much - LOL
Once they've been walked on a few times, they break-down and tend to stay put.
Our neighbor gave us several more bags this morning.
Lisa P, I have enjoyed reading your thread and responses and would like to add another two cents worth. I recently came across a blog called Idaho man which had numerous links to other sites. In this blog was something called sunken green houses. Basically they were raised beds dug down into the earth and covered. They referenced using these in the Bolivian mountains as well as back in the days of the Roman Cezars. I have six of these beds in which I use three old window panes as covers. They are dug down from two to four feet from the surface. I have been experimenting with ideas on how to use these beds have gathered a ton of information and ideas from different DG forums. Next spring I will layer several beds starting with four to six inches of crushed rock, another foot of fresh horse manure, some straw, then finally a six inch layer of composted cow manure with wood chip fines. I grew some butterhead lettuce in a similar mix last season and it worked great. I plan to add spinach and bok choi to this mix next season.
mraider3, you do keep innovating!
How do you get the sunken green houses to drain? Are you building them on a slope, or does your sibsoil drain straight down?
I see that the four to six inches of crushed rock would give them every chance to drain, but if they are sunken down into something imprevious, I would have expected them to fill up like a swimming pool, or at least accumulate salt.
>> another foot of fresh horse manure
I bet that supplies some heat!
Corey
Corey, I haven't seen a problem with drainage in any of the beds. The beds are actually dug into bedrock. However, I had used garden soil for several years in these bins and the clay in this soil actually flushed to the bottom of the beds. I had about four inches of clay in the bottoms of these beds when I dug them out this year and made them deeper. The bottoms are still bedrock and clay which may drain well enough, but I thought it best to use some crushed rock in the bottoms to start next season. I played with various mixes of composted manures, wood chips, and wood chip fines as the growing media this season and everything worked well. I can't say one mix was better than the other, however a bottom layer of fresh horse manure/bedding straw helped heat three of these beds. These three beds are still in place, and I will use this material next season on my rock wall for planting lasagna style.
I might also mention I have a riser which is part of the garden irrigation system of 20 similar risers. I attached a garden hose to this riser to water these beds. In two of the beds I place a vertical PVC pipe in the corner so I could bottom water as well. I only used it a few times early in the season to flood irrigate the layer of fresh horse manure with warm water. I thought this would help in the decomposition process and add heat to the beds. I didn't maintain any temperature records from these two beds to compare with the others. I would like to try some baby cucumbers in one bed early next spring, so I will keep a close eye on that bed temperature.
I always use one bed for lettuce, spinach and next season bok choi (substitute for celery). This bed doesn't require much heat and can be started early. Possibly even early April. Third bed is undecided. This year I grew broccoli, cauliflower. and cabbage in two of the beds. These will go to the garden next season. That leaves two or three beds undecided. Ideas???
>> a bottom layer of fresh horse manure/bedding straw helped heat three of these beds.
Very cool, or I should say, 'warm'!
>> a vertical PVC pipe in the corner so I could bottom water as well. I only used it a few times early in the season to flood irrigate the layer of fresh horse manure with warm water.
Maybe that flushes out accumulated salts, or maybe you just aren't building up much salt.
Radishes (the round red kind) seem able to take a lot of cold. Beets?
I like a lot of snow peas, myself. Have you tried any green stem, or "baby" Bok Choy? There is a lot of variety.
Let me know if you want some seed for several kinds of Bok Choy or other Asian greens. Some are too spicy or mustardy for me, but Gai Lan or Kai Lan or Te You is like kale.
I found a kind of Italian "leaf broccoli" that I like. It is still happy when the nights go down to 38 F, and was advertised as "transplant out after air temperature stays above 25 F, so it must be pretty cold tolerant.
Spigariello Liscia / Broccolo Spigariello / Brassica oleracea var. 'Spigariello'.
Corey
Corey, I started with Johnny's putting together a list of about a dozen different varieties of plants for this experiment. I have a couple of other sources to preview before I make my final selections. I would like to try some of the spicier Bok Choy. I recall seeing an Italian "leaf brocolli" in my search and thought it would make a good early, potted variety with multiple heads which could be trimmed as required.
Each spring I replace the growing media in these dug down raised beds and haven't given much thought to salt build up. Bottom watering was only intended to soak the horse manure/straw layer to improve the decomposition rate. If water becomes trapped in this layer during the top watering process it should assist in anaerobic decomposition. I had leaf lettuce voluntarily sprout in one of these beds, without a cover, in early March while snow was still on the ground.
>> Each spring I replace the growing media in these dug down raised beds and haven't given much thought to salt build up.
That's a winning strategy! I forget where I read this, years ago, but someone explained the best thing to do with over-fertilized, salted-up indoor potting soil. Just spread it thinly in an outdoor bed where any excess fertilizer is a positive benefit, and rain + driange will cure any saltiness.
That's also the best cure for my heavy clay soil: 100% replacement!
>> I would like to try some of the spicier Bok Choy.
Sure thing. I'll make a selection.
The green stems may have a slightly heartier flavor, but I wouldn't call any Bok Choy I've grown "spicy" in the sense of mustard greens, even when older. I would say the range is from very mild to a stronger "green" flavor, mostly by age and somewhat by variety. Once they bolt, some variety's flowering stems are said to be a delicacy - to me they do have some of that bitter 'zing'.
Did you know that in China, the coarser old leaves of Bok Choy are sometimes pickled? Or dipped breifly in boiling water, then sun-dried for several days so they can be stored for winter use?
On the other hand, Gai Lan and all mustards, Komatsuna, Mizuna and so on, have a definite "mustardy spicy" flavor, that must be what catalogs mean when they say "not very bitter".
I'll put together a selection of Bok Choy. My eyes are bigger than my raised beds when I order seeds, so I have more than I can plant. Also, I need to rotate the main bed where I raised Brassicas, so next spring I'm not going to have a lot of space for them.
I'd also be curious to know what you think of some other things, if you try them, like so-called "Oriental Spinach", which was the only name Tainong Seeds would give one thing. If you like "spicy", I just have to send some samples of Japanese "Spinach Mustard" and Mizuna.
>> I recall seeing an Italian "leaf brocolli" in my search and thought it would make a good early, potted variety with multiple heads which could be trimmed as required.
"Early and potted" sound good, this guy is supposed to laugh at temps down to 25 F once established. But my Brassica oleracea var. 'Spigariello' doesn't head at all in my garden. It just spreads out with leaves and tips. I started by eating the biggest leaves first, and thought it was too strongly flavored for me (raw), until a neihgbor pointed out that small leaves and tips were always more tender and delicate in flavor: true!
@RickCory, it's good to know someone here who likes Sprigariello. I placed a seed order with CherryGal.One of the things I wanted, they replaced with Sprigariello. I had never heard of it before, and have been hesitant to start it, but think I may now. lol
@mraider, your sunken beds sound fascinating. Living on a hill, I have actually considered doing something like this myself. I think it would aid in protecting a lot from the winds we get here. :)
Someone got some seeds and tried to eat the stems, thinking "broccoli". "Who could ever like THIS?!?" But the leaves and tips ... pretty good!
I learned about it from Sherilou.
And it has stood up to neglect, heavy soil, intermittent watering and cold in my garden like a trooper. I'm going to keep growing it. I think next year I'll give most of that bed a rest from Brassias EXCEPT for this, and collect seeds if any bolt. That was actually a little disapointing: my Broccolo Spigariello never went to seed!
For my birthday dinner the other day I chose creamed broccoli. The wife took some we had saved and frozen from our crop this spring and made a soup. I was thinking of steamed broccoli in a cream sauce, but I devoured the soup without complaint. Broccoli was the easiest of the brassias to grow, so next season we plan to go to the garden instead of the sunken greenhouses. Glad to hear you had good success with yours Corey. Since broccoli keeps really well frozen, I figure a 60 ft row will be just about right to feed ourselves and the family hordes. Bet that one gets put on everyone's list for next year.
I still plan on trying several varieties of broccoli in the sunken greenhouses using 2.5 gallon pots. Since broccoli seem pretty tolerant of cold weather I figured three potted plants set out in early April should keep the two of us well supplied for a couple of months until the garden plants start producing. Nice thing about certain varieties of broccoli is the cut and come again effect like Lolo Rosa leaf lettuce. It amazes me how much production you can actually get from a 2.5 gallon pot under the right circumstances.
mraider, happy birthday. Wow, 60ft of broccoli -- sounds like my husband's worst nightmare, lol.
The sunken greenhouse concept sounds interesting -- around here, we would need dynamite to get past the bedrock that lurks just a few inches down, but I can imagine that in your part of the world, you get a lot more out of your season by using the sunken greenhouses. I think I saw an article about gardening in the snow (in Alaska?) using this sort of thing. Very cool!
Hey Ya'll,
The bucket garden is cranking up! I raced out this morning, 'cause I hadn't watered since Sunday, expecting to pull the hoop cover and see drooping plants. However, we had a major rainstorm yesterday, and either the wind was blowing rain into the hoop, or there are more holes than I thought in the plastic. Either way, the plants were damp.
I've upped the MG Water Soluble solution to a heaping teaspoon per gallon/water, and pouring one full gallon on the larger plants, and about 2/3 of a gallon on the smaller ones. Then, I'm following with a water chaser, just until run-off. Ran out of time this a.m. (I finally figured out what coveralls can REALLY do...), but since the soil was already damp, I think they'll be ok without the water chaser.
My cabbages are growing fast now! Heads have formed on most all of them, and they're starting to look like cabbages! I figure I should be pulling at least 3 in the next two weeks or so.
Still haven't put out the Snowball Cauliflowers I rescued from the rainstorm we had 3 weeks ago. They've been under lights long enough, and look like a bouquet of artificial greenery. Their recovery has taught me even more about when and how much MG fertilizer is necessary, and when they should get straight water. Fascinating!
I'm a bit concerned about my broccolis, though. I read somewhere that if they don't make a flower?? it means they won't make a head??? Can anyone offer a comment on that, or set me straight, please? I have several with really strong stalks, almost a quarter-size in diameter. They have great leaves, but I haven't seen evidence of a head yet, on any one of them.
The Brussels Sprouts are beefing up, too, although I know I shouldn't expect anything from them for the next 3-4 months! I can hardly wait for sprouts.
Finally, either the Bayer Complete spray or the Garden Dust liquid I sprayed for the cabbage worms kicked in, or one 'a those nighttime dips froze them, 'cause I'm not seeing any freshly chewed holes in anything lately. And, that's a good thing!
Hugs to All!
Linda
This message was edited Nov 9, 2011 1:48 PM
Happy Birthday, and Happy Broccoli!
I haven't tried it, but I read this about the 'Spigariello'
"Cooked leaves freeze well"
Corey
MRaider,
Happy B'day to you!
All this talk regarding bok choy made me curious enough that I purchased some today. I'll try anything once!
I love it:
crunchy raw stalks like sweet celery without 'string'. Garden candy, with so much water it quenches thirst
tender green young leaves like lettuce
steamed or stir-fried or in soup when older like chard
It doesn't seem to store well, but I read the claim that thick old leaves can be pickled, or blanched and sun-dried.
Lisa P, I wore out a pick ax digging holes for four fruit trees and those six sunken raised beds. Our soil if you can call it that is only two feet thick, then it's solid bed rock. I had used a quarter inch sifter screen on much of the garden when I first had dug it. I spent several days to a week just working a ten by ten area. Then I began hauling horse manure from a neighbor down a block away. She had accumulated a huge pile over the years with her two horses. I added as much as a foot of old horse manure to replace all the rock I removed. I frequently got bogged down with my 26 hp Sears tractor/mower w/ pull behind tiller, but eventually I got it all tilled in. Nobody would believe I would be able to grow anything in that much horse manure. I still have the original lab report which stated I was way over on nitrogen and high on everything else. However, I figured if I tilled enough times I could release the excess ammonia nitrogen. I tilled about half a dozen times in the fall after adding the manure, and repeatedly again in the spring before planting. I know my neighbors all thought I was crazy. Now half of them are gardening as well.
I've considered trying to raising some leaf lettuce in one of the sunken green houses this winter. I have some two year old back seed simpson leaf lettuce seed which needs to be used up.
Also, this weekend I’m starting my indoor winter garden with the usual, potted leaf lettuce and spinach. I plan to add choi and broccoli to the list this year as well. I’ve considered starting the choi seed in a cell pack, then transplanting six or seven plants to a 2.5 gallon pot. I presume choi will transplant???
That's a lot of digging, mraider. I can't imagine all that pick axe work. I'd love to have a fruit tree or two but am daunted by that prospect. My neighbor put in a pear tree last year and he said "never again." lol
I never even thought of growing lettuce and spinach indoors. In my climate, it might be an option for our hot summers.
As for transplanting bok choi, I would think it would work fine. I started some in seed-starter trays, then transplanted into some hanging baskets. My baskets aren't artistic but hey, they were cheap to fill anyway, lol -- $2.50 chrysanthemum, free marigolds and a penny or two for the bok choi seeds.
Uh, looks like someone is well on her way to edible landscaping, on a miniature scale!
>> I added as much as a foot of old horse manure to replace all the rock I removed. ...
>> I still have the original lab report which stated I was way over on nitrogen and high on everything else.
What a "problem" to have! Adding another foot of sawdust would have given you even more soil depth, but then you might have had to wait a season for it to break down.
>> I’ve considered starting the choi seed in a cell pack, then transplanting six or seven plants to a 2.5 gallon pot. I presume choi will transplant???
Transplanting them is fine: with individual inserts or propagation plugs, the roots won't be disturbed.
However, if they are standard size Bok Choy, not baby (10-14" tall instead of 4-6" tall), they might want more room to spread out (if grown to maturity). Most of my seed pkts advise thinning to 4-6", but my experience is that if I let a standard size plant grow to full size, it can spread 12" across.
If I sowed or thinned them as close as 6", I would expect to eat every other plant well before it reaches maturity, to give the rest enough room. That works just fine! Indeed, I usually eat 3 / 4 of all direct-sown Bok Choy well before maturity. I pluck outer leaves or whole plants depending on how densely they have grown together.
My notes suggest starting Bok Choy indoors 2 weeks before transplanting, and setting out AFTER last frost. Some varieties may even be direct-sown a few weeks before the last frost, others prefer more warmth, or even tolerate some heat which is unusual for Bok Choy (most bolt in heat or frost).
>> I have some two year old back seed simpson leaf lettuce seed which needs to be used up.
Want to trade some B.S.S. lettuce seed for some things in the New Bee stash?
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1223246/ (bottom of first post)
Corey
After seeing LisaP's pic a couple of thoughts come to mind. (1) Mixing several different plants which harvest at a similar time in a single pot. Then harvesting the entire pot. Example: A romaine lettuce, a bok choi or two, and several bunching onions. (2) Harvesting a few stems at a time from a bok choi plant rather than pulling the entire plant.
I think Corey answered the second thought with the comment about removing the outer leaves of the bok choi..
Chrysanthemums and marigolds are both insect deterrents, right?
I like this thought of mixing different plants in a single indoor pot for making winter salads. It occurred to me there may be a solution here for another problem I have been experiencing. Aphids vs pepper plants. Possibly growing chives in the same container as the pepper plant could fix the problem.
I would really like to hear your ideas on mixing several different varieties of salad plants in a single 2.5 gallon pot. You could really get creative here with transplants and direct seeding. Example: Adding some radish seed later to some transplanted romaine lettuce. I can see unlimited possibilities here.
I like the way you think, mraider, on the edible pots. My thinking was to have one sort of large and maybe pretty thing in the middle and then fill the edges with edibles. In keeping with that goal, I had originally started parsley along the edges in between the bok choy, but when it didn't take off, I stuck in a bunch of marigolds just to fill it in. (There is still parsley down there under the bok choy, but it isn't happy).
Anyway, leaf lettuce, spinach, bok choy would be good green leafy things to put around the edges. maybe red romaine, or other purple leafy thing., would add interest. I can't seem to grow radishes to save my life, and I don't think they like crowding, so I am not sure I'd try them in a pot but maybe someone else would have better luck than I would (maybe icicle radishes?).
If your pot is deep rather than bowl-shaped, carrots could lend a nice fern-like edging though, and then just thin as they get larger.
And then there are herbs - dill has a nice ferny look. So does cilantro! My first cilantro is just now coming up and I could easily see that as part of an attractive pot. Other herbs too -- thyme might drape over the edge of the pot, I think. Lemon verbena is nice in a pot, but it loses its leaves over the winter. I'm having fun with a dark purple basil right now, although it's not growing as vigorously as the standard green one. Yeah, this could be great fun, trying to do attractive but edible pots.
And now having talked about this, I'm thinking to retrofit -- I have a few ordinary pots of veggies around here that might benefit from a little attractive stuff along the edges. Why not?
We have strayed a bit from the original concept of raised beds but I find it interesting how we got here. Intensive gardening in raise beds... to micro gardening in pots and sunken green houses. I still plan on setting up several of the raised beds as sunken greenhouses and applying the French intensive gardening process along with square foot gardening principals, however the idea of using these 2.5 gallon pots just seems to add a whole new realm to these concepts. My head is still spinning with all the possibilities.
LiseP, I grew some radishes indoors in a 20 gallon pot last winter with a Prairie Fire tomato plant. Only a couple were eddible. I didn't have the container media constructed properly for watering which may have been part of the problem. I plan on planting a Sophie's Choice in this container using ideas from tapla's media formulas for potting containers. I haven't decided weather to plant radishes along with this tomato plant or something else like spinach &/or leaf lettuce. Radishes in the raised beds didn't fare well either for some reason. I've tried slipping a few seeds in between slower developing seeds in the garden, but that idea was marginal. The icicle radishes I planted in the garden last year ended up in the compost pile. I'm the only one who likes radishes in my salad so I'm going to experiment with growing some in pots this winter to see if I can figure out a better way to grow them.
I have searched high and low for pine bark fines in northern California & people look at me as if I've gone mad. Cannot find it anywhere.