Garden Talk: Anyone used mycorrhiza?

LOL. Think I will just continue using a shovelfull of horse manure in each tomato hole:) The darn vines get 8 ft. tall now and are loaded with maters.....I can't reach higher than that to pick 'em anyway:)

Largest tomato this year was a DeQuasi Special...tad over 3 lbs. Had several 1 1/2 lbs. Planted a single vine for my neighbor....he had 10 tomatoes on it, smallest being about 1 1/2 lbs., and he just uses composted cow manure:) I think he cheats though and uses 5-10-10 and Miracle Grow on 'em too:) haha

Owen





This message was edited Monday, Aug 27th 7:29 PM

Tomato grown in a couple shovelsfull of compost horsemanure and a handfull of woodash

http://davesgarden.com/showthread/5504.html

Thomas, I understand where Byron is coming from on his statement concerning elevated PO4 and M. fungi. Not only did I read it on the link provided below but several others I found while searching for more info on M.fungi.

THE LINK IN QUESTION:


"Mycorrhizae are an integral part of most plants in nature (Giazninazzi et al., 1982) and occur on 83% of dicotyledonous and 79% of monocotyledonous plant investigated (Wilcox - 1996). All gymnosperms are reported as being mycorrhizal (Newman & Reddell, 1987). Infection of the root system of the plant by these fungi creates a symbiotic (beneficial) relationship between the plant and fungus.

Upon root infection and colonization, mycorrhizal fungi develop an external mycelium which is a bridge connecting the root with the surrounding soil (Toro et al. 1997). One of the most dramatic effects of infection by mycorrhizal fungi on the host plant is the increase in phosphorus (P) uptake (Koide, 1991) mainly due to the capacity of the mycorrhizal fungi to absorb phosphate from soil and transfer it to the host roots (Asimi, et al. 1980). In addition, mycorrhizal infection results in an increase in the uptake of copper (Lambert, Baker & Cole, 1979; Gildon & Tinker, 1983), zinc (Lambert, Baker & Cole, 1979), nickel (Killham & Firestone, 1983), and chloride and sulphate (Buwalda, Stribley & Tinker, 1983). Mycorrhizae also are known to reduce problems with pathogens which attack the roots of plants (Gianinazzi-Pearson & Gianinazzi, 1983).


Influence of Phosphorus on Mycorrhizas:
The benefits listed above are greatest in P-deficient soils and decrease as soil phosphate levels increase (Schubert & Hayman, 1986).

Very high and very low phosphorus levels may reduce mycorrhizal infection/colonization (Koide, 1991). It is well established that:

infection by mycorrhizal fungi is significantly reduced at high soil phosphorus levels (Amijee et al., 1989; Koide & Li, 1990)

the addition of phosphate fertilization results in a delay in infection as well as a decrease in the percentage of infection of roots by mycorrhizae (deMiranda, Harris & Wild, 1989; Asimi et al., 1989)

an increase in the level of soil phosphate results in a reduction in chlamydospore production by the fungus (Menge, et al. 1978). These spores are involved in root infection and spread of the fungus through the soil profile.
Research by Abbott and Robson (1979) concluded that levels of soil phosphorus greater than that required for plant growth eliminated the development of the arbuscles of vesicular-arbuscular (VA) types of mycorrhizae. Arbuscles are structures produced within the host plant cells by the VA mycorrhizae. These structures are responsible for the transfer of absorbed nutrients from the fungus to the plant. The arbuscles resemble miniature shrub-like trees (arbuscular = shrub in Latin). Mosse (1973) reports adding phosphate results in no arbuscles forming.

What levels of P are critical?
When the soil level of bicarbonate-soluble phosphorus exceeded 140 mg kg -1 (140 parts per million) the rate of infection was found to decrease (Amijee et al. 1989). Abbott and Robson (1977 & 1978) found the mycorrhizae Glomus fasciculatum ceased to be effective when the soil level of phosphorus reached 133 mg kg -1 [133 parts per million (ppm)]. Schubert and Hayman (1986) found mycorrhizae was no longer effective when 100 mg or more of P was added per kilogram of soil (100 ppm). Mycorrhizal infection virtually disappeared with the addition of 1.5 grams or more of monocalcium phosphate per kilogram of soil (Mosse 1973). With small additions of phosphorus fertilizer, entry points and fungal growth on the root surface remained normal but arbuscles were small and fewer in number reducing the effectiveness of the fungus/plant relationship. Other researchers have reported mycorrhizal infections tend to die out in soils containing or given much phosphorus (Baylis, 1967; Mosse, 1967). The development of mycorrhizal relationships were found to be the greatest when soil phosphorus levels were at 50 mg kg -1 (50 ppm) (Schubert & Hayman, 1986).


Summary and recommendations:
The benefits of mycorrhizae are greatest when soil phosphorus levels are at or below 50 ppm (50 mg kg). Mycorrhizal infection of roots declines above this level with little if any infection occurring above 100 ppm P even when soil is inoculated with a mycorrhizae mix.

Prior to inoculating soil with mycorrhizae, a soil test should be conducted. If phosphorus levels are greater than 50 ppm the addition of mycorrhizae will likely be ineffective.

The level of phosphorus in the plant also has been shown to influence the establishment of VA mycorrhizae with high levels inhibiting colonization by mycorrhizae (Menge, et al. 1978). Foliar applications of phosphorus therefore should be avoided when inoculating soil with mycorrhizae."
http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/TRA/PLANTS/mycorrhiza.html


Thomas, I understand that this is a subject you are passionate about. I am not saying Biovam is not a good product. Personally, I think it is an excellent product and something I would be interested in trying. But having said that, most products have their limitations. Maybe you can explain to us WHY elevated PO4 levels affect the M. fungi and it's ability to colonize the roots. Thanks.

Pete

As you can see, Thomas, the wording of that article above and therefore it's clarity is nebulous at best.

Pete

Hi Pete2! Here's a bit more information for you to read.

When someone claims that endomycorrhizal fungi isn't used on vegetable plants because they can't find that in a search engine, they are out of touch with the real world! Virtually every vendor of endomycorrhizal fungi states it can be used on vegetable plants.

There isn't any national organization. There have been attempts by some to milk money out of vendors. A professor / scientist / researcher / mycollogist at the UofFloida sent me a letter and wanted $900 for him to document the viability of our product. I asked him why he was charging such a rediculously outrageous price when I can have an independent lab that is 100% impartial and without interest in VAM inoculum do that sort of thing for a fraction of the cost!? He went into a discussion of costs imposed upon him by his University. Before that I was contacted by a student from that University who was verifying my mailing address but refused to tell me why. Well meaning, but I don't do business like that, besides, I'm not the manufacturer. They couldn't even get that straight. No thanks! I don't have funds to spend on something so outrageously pricey!

Ask me about a university trial which was carried out by the UofTen a few years back on all the inoculum from every manufacturer in the nation. I sold them products from two manufacturers.

By the way, there are several companies selling mycorrhizal inoculum in the State of Washington. We are the only one who has registered their product with the Washington State Department of Agriculture and have it approved to be used by Organic Farmers.

Truth about Rhubarb... Rhubarb is non-mycorrhizal. BioVam does benefit Rhubarb because of the action of MHB (Mycorrhizal Helper Bacteria) in the product that benefits all plant life and helps mycorrhizal fungi better colonize its host plant.

Now BioVam can't cure all diseases. However, a good healthy ecosystem can produce plants that can resist destructive diseases and do not attract opportunistic insects.

Pete2, the issue with phosphorous and mycorrhizal fungi is really quite simple. When a high volume of SOLUBLE phosphorous is present, the flow of nutrients through the hyphae network into plants is stopped. Plants dependent upon mycorrhizal fungi for nutrients then have the flow of nutrients cut off. People who use phosphorous fertilizers which give off lots of soluble phosphorous (most liquid fertilizers, superphosphates, and too much bird manure or bat guano, for example) will shut down such mycorrhizal systems. In fact, that can keep the mycorrhizal relationship from even starting up with plants. Such fertilizers are quite harsh on all soil microbe life. Most chemical fertilizers are also not beneficial to plants because a great number of plants treated with such fertilizers are often weak and attract opportunistic insects and diseases. A lot of people have bought into the idea that is normal with plants. It isn't.

With weak plants, one is constantly fighting off diseases and oportunistic insects and having to come up with ideas about how to get rid of those problems. There's a multi- billion dollar chemical industry set up to sell you lots of products for that very purpose... to create weak plants so you can now buy their xxx-cides and their destructive fertilizers.

Healthy plants with sound cellular structure throughout are able to resist having those problems because they don't attract opportunistic insects and diseases. That's what good living ecosystems are able to impart to plants... the resources plants need to produce exceptional health. Actually, that's not exceptional health. It's normal health for plants growing in a balanced ecosystem.

When you understand how to put in place a high performing ecosystem, the plants are furnished with plentiful minerals, enzymes, and NPK sources in a balanced fashion. Such plants withstand harsh environmental factors much better simply because they are more physically fit. They don't attract opportunistic insects and they don't attract fungal and bacterial diseases... all of which in the natural design, have the function of selecting out the weak plants.

Pet2, there's also an interesting relationship with mycorrhizal plants and weeds. Can you guess what that might be? I'm glad your learning from some of these discussions.

Pete2,

This forum is moving right along. You asked a question I don't think I answered.... "Why does too much phosphorous stop the fungal colonization process?" We are delving into an area of the science that is not well defined, but some work has been done in the 90's to clear up some of the issues.

First, the issue is not the presence of fixed or bound up or insoluble phosphorous. The issue is the amount of free or soluble phosphorous that is available. When soil tests are done, it is rare to measure only one of the components of phosphorous… either only the amounts that are free and soluble or the amounts that are fixed. What is generally done is to dissolve the soil sample in an acid and test for the total available phosphorous. Available P = soluble P + insoluble or fixed P.

There is also another issue I often think about and that has to do with "low levels of phosphorous". Research indicates that "in the wild or in a natural balanced ecosystem" that phosphorus in the water film is generally around 1% in the soils. For some people, that’s low. To me, that’s more than sufficient in a balanced microbial active ecosystem. The insoluble component has nothing at all to do with shutting down mycorrhizal hyphae translocation of nutrients from soils to plant, nor does it have anything to do with stopping the colonization process.

When modern agricultural practices cause people to dump lots of phosphorous fertilizers into the soil, in the misguided idea that is somehow beneficial to plants... you know the type of plants I'm talking about.. the weak ones that are susceptible to diseases and attract destructive insects... those people are often the ones who are saying the natural level of phosphorous is really low. Well, when their practices kill off the microbes and beneficial organisms that facilitate getting the phosphorous into plants and in solubalizing the fixed sources of phosphorous... yes.. it's a low level of P according to those folks because they have screwed up the ecosystem and they have failed to come to grips with the role of microbes in the soils. I’ve seen manure do that sort of thing and that’s one of the reasons I don’t like using manure products.

I have a customer in India who is distraught because thousands of hectares of land have been ruined by farmers who have dumped copious amounts of superphosphates into the soils. Where do you suppose they learned how to do that? The result of that action is that most of the phosphorous is bound up and will not dissolve. It’s at 109 ppm. They added mineral fertilizers into those soils and those also became bound up. When they put plants in those soils, they starved to death because they couldn’t get their nutrients. It’s like being at sea, but you can’t drink that salt water and live. The mineral nutrients were all bound up and no plants could grow in those ruined farm land soils. That customer is also a scientist and understands a lot about mycorrhizal fungi. He put BioVam’s mini ecosystem of fungi and helper bacteria on the roots of grape plants and planted them into those soils and they flourished!! Without BioVam, they wouldn’t even grow in those soils.

Let’s go to some research findings now… it has been discovered that when the high levels of free phosphorous are INSIDE the plant, then the mycorrhizal relationship between the plant and the fungi are not established.

I once was talking to a scientist who is a trained mycologist / PhD and she said it is the plant that decides to enter into the mycorrhizal relationship… not the fungi. I thought, what in the world is this daffy woman talking about? The answer lies in looking at how the mycorrhizal spores are germinated. Plant root exudates are given off that act as a trigger to start the fungal germination process. The spores the exudates contact will then germinate and the hyphae structure growing out from the spore will work its way into the roots and into the plant cells depending upon the family of fungi. Actually any of the propagules can infect a plant in that manner… spores, hyphae fragments, even host plant root fragments containing fungal parts.

So, when the grower / farmer puts a bunch of chicken poop into the soil and it releases a bunch of free phosphorous that goes into the plant and then someone transplants that plant and puts mycorrhizal fungi inoculum on the roots of that plant and the plant doesn’t get colonized by the fungi, what happened? I think the excessive amount of soluble phosphorous in that plant stops the exudates from being excreted from the roots and thus there is no invitation to the fungi to start germinating and come into the plant. I might be wrong, but that sounds reasonable to me, because the fungi remains dormant around the roots of such plants.

The process is more complex than this because there are other organisms (mycorrhizal helper bacteria) that also play a role in encouraging higher levels of root colonization. Those bacteria can play multiple roles. They help the mycorrhizal fungi colonization process. They can act as antigen generators to protect plant roots from pathogenic organisms and they can even solubalize minerals that are bound up so they can be translocated into the plants via the fungal hyphae network.

Most mycologists don’t deal with the multiplicity of all these organisms working together. That’s where the ingenuity of BioVam’s inventor has been well out in front of the pack and still is! Others have tried to discover what he has been doing and people with the big bucks have tried to buy him and his technological expertise, but it “ain’t for sale”! Some of the pioneer mycologists in the field are starting to realize there is this complicated relationship between the microbes and the fungi and the plants and there are certain combinations that work really well with the given result that the plants grow mighty fine in size, yields, flavors and all sorts of qualitative and quantitative measures. Now there’s a mouth full of something good!

John Evans, up in Palmer Alaska has really tuned that microbial / mineral / organic system with ingredients that blow away known standards of performance with vegetables and several other kinds of plants. He had his microbe “system” checked by the people at Soil Food Web, Inc., and they said his system was sky high in microbes and the food to sustain those microbes was excellent. They said all he needed was VAM fungi. So, he found BioVam. I sold him BioVam and some zeolite and with his superb super octane that he had going… his plants took off like nothing he had ever seen before in the previous records he had set. BioVam had quite a positive effect upon his Cabbage family plants… which are non-mycorrhizal. I think the microbe component of the product really set everything into high gear. John’s weekly compost tea applications also had quite a sustaining effect upon the microbes to keep their population levels up.

John Evans sent me some more wonderful pictures this morning and he said “Ray Gavlak ( chief State agronomist ), when he was at John’s place last Saturday, commented on how green all the plants were, especially that it is the end of the season. Usually there would be many leaves that have turned yellow by this time! He said the onions are still growing.” A lot of rules get changed when supercharged plants are being sustained by a high octane ecological system!

When John comes out with his enhanced growing kit, BioVam will be part of it.

Now I don’t have everything perfectly defined here. I’ve been talking more at a conceptual level, but I think I’m fairly close to answering your question accurately.

It's funny, Most of Johns record plants were on record
before bio-vam was available.


http://www.recordholders.org/en/records/vegetables2.html

Byron writes:

It's funny, Most of Johns record plants were on record
before bio-vam was available.

My reply:

Listed at the URL referenced in his message:
1993 - Brocolli.
1994 - Red Cabbage.
1994 - Rutabaga.
1995 - Kale.
1995 - Swiss Chard.
1997 - Artichoke.
1997 - Cauliflower.
1998 - Green Cabbage.
1998 - Carrot.
1998 - Zucchini.
1999 - Kohlrabi.
1999 - Garden Beet.

Also, this year, John Evans has taken 11 out of 13 first place entries for his food at the Alaska State Fair.

In 1996, Dr. Robert Linderman was writing about BioVam. That was a number of years before I started using it and the product was being manufactured before that date. Here's a copy of Dr. Linderman's letter: http://www.tandjenterprises.com/documents/linderman_letter.htm

Now let's just do a simple evaluation ... John had 5 awards listed 1993-1995 and 8 awards listed 1997-1999. Now since BioVam was being manufactured about mid 1992, and John Evan's earliest record listed is 1993, that's a good indication that Byron's claim is incorrect.

Actually, I grew up knowing about MF. My Dad, Arno Nehrling, Karl Sax and other horticulturists associated with the Arnold Arboretum in Boston were into deep study on the subject during the 1930's-40's. This is where Ruth Stout caught up with it and developed her growing techniques. Dad called MF the 'stuff of the Universe".

MF is naturally present in undisturbed soils. The leaf canopy, be it conifer, evergreen or deciduous falls to earth, litters the ground an inch or more thick and decomposes by the cold compost method "aided by bacteria,
earthworms and various other soil organisms". This is how nature manufactures MF. As you know, a plant's feeder roots are just under the surface of the soil "and the fungi improve the health and development of their host by enhancing plant nutrition and disease and stress resistance;
the more vigorous plant is a better source of C to the soil, which encourages the activity of the soil biota; the products of microbial metabolism enhance soil aggregation; and better soil structure permits better plant growth." This was the basis of Ruth Stout's experiment. She mulched with straw, ammended on top of that, never tilled, disturbed the soil only enough to plant each crop, added more straw mulch, etc. year after year. Her work illustrates a very important point. MF is very fragile and survives only in the top few inches of soil. If it is vigorously disturbed
it dies. The Interbay mulching technique everyone is talking about is simply a variation of Ruth's studies. In answer to your basic question, MF will replenish itself if the natural growth, be it forest or grasslands, remain in their natural state as planted by Mother Nature.

But, now the hand and technology of man enter the picture. I will use as an example the live oaks growing in my area. For hundreds of years they have grown on fairly undisturbed land and thrived. Suddenly our area is a popular retirement spot. Thousands of homes are being constructed. Developers rip and tear under live oaks with backhoes and heavy trucks. The land is disturbed. The homeowner moves in and carefully rakes up the live oak leaves that shower out of the trees every spring onto his lawn. And suddenly, the poor live oaks have lost their naturally manufactured source of MF. Within a few years they begin to show signs of decline.

"Some plants are so dependent on MF they may struggle to survive without it. A few extremely dependent ones are avacados, bananas, all types of citrus and grapes." I would add to this quote that throughout my years of working with land development I feel that trees in the beech family are the most dependent on MF. If soils under these are disturbed or compacted the beech trees will be dead within 3-6 years.

Now we have the recently introduced technology of commercially produced MF. Dorie and I are both strong advocates of having this substance injected around live oaks that have been stressed by construction. We have seen the
results. And, around the world these MF products are being tested by arborists and growers. It is an evolving business still undergoing study.

I tend to stay off the Organic and Soils Forums. I have neither the time nor patience to deal with some of the posters. I shudder when reading...to improve clay soils keep tilling in leaves. Then the next person states that it did not help his soil at all. To improve clay soil the leaves should be spead on the top of the soil and allowed to decay. Tilling every year destroys the MF and the improvement of soil texture. "The hyphae clump individual clay particles into aggregates, thereby allowing more oxygen to reach the root zone. This promotes the rapid multiplication of beneficial organisms, this forming of tight clay soil into a granular texture is," the smart way to handle clay soils. And, based on my studies the use of wetting agents enhances and speeds the the process of creating friable soils. But, if I mention wetting agents everyone jumps down my throat. There are organic ones available and they are an extremely important tool for certain soil conditions.

NH
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

You can have all of the MF that you can use for free by using the Ruth Stout methods.

Hi Owen,

Thanks for the tip on zone and location. I do that more out of routine. I forgot that information is displayed alongside the message.

Well said Pete2! I've read this entire thread and I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Seems to me like VioVam isn't really necessary with good organic soil treatments.

Check out my Amish Paste tomatoes in the 'Photo Forum', threads; Amish Paste Tomato & Amish Paste Tomato II (Sorry, never could figure out how to hyperlink). These were grown in soil treated only with: tilled in leaves, composted cow manure, lime, and grass clipping. NO chemical fertilizers were used! :o)
http://davesgarden.com/showthread/85101.html
http://davesgarden.com/showthread/85104.html

By George, I think I've got it!

Thank you, Trish!

MF is an interesting topic. For one example I have Pink Lady slippers growing wild, They will only grow where a very special MF is formed with the combination of pine, oak and birch leaves, They will not live without this fungi.
It takes 5 to 7 years for seeds to germinate in the wild
in the fungi. It takes over a year in controled labs. Seeds are rarely pollinated because the bees get trapped in side. They are a State wildflower and very rare. It is a $1,000 fine to attempt to transplant..

No need of picking the flowers either. They start wilting in less than an hour.

Whew.

Pink Lady Slippers (Cypripedium reginae) are terrestrial orchids. The Orchids have their own mycorrhizal fungi family group. Pink Lady Slipper habitat is often near acid woods, usually near pine. Pine needles, Oak leaves, and Birch leaves have nothing to do with the formation of Orchid Mycorrhiza, but may very well be a source of organic material which can be decomposed by orchid mycorrhiza so the nutrients can be moved into the plant. I suspect the leaves may also play a role in keeping the soils acidic around the orchid plant. It's interesting to note that orchid mycorrhizal fungi can actually decompose organic material. When Orchids are first formed, most can not live without first being colonized by the mycorrhiza.

Here's one version about how the leaves are used:

Loosen soil in the specially prepared Cypripedium garden plot. Layout the roots horizontally, shoot or bud pointing up. Cover seedlings with loose soil until shoot or bud tip is even with the surface. Cover with a thin layer of pine needles. Keep the soil moist and cool. Cover the seedlings in the fall, after the leaves have died, with fall leaves. Remove the layer of leaves in the spring.

Minnesota State Flower: Pink and White Lady Slipper (cypripedium reginae) The pink and white lady slipper is one of Minnesota's rarest wildflowers. Thriving in swamps, bogs, and damp woods, they grow slowly, taking 4 to 16 years to produce their first flower. Sometimes they live for 50 years and grow four feet tall. They bloom in late June or early July. It is illegal to pick the lady slipper.

Best Regards,
Thomas Giannou
http://www.tandjenterprises.com - home of BioVam Mycorrhiza.

Byron’s theory: Rhubarb must be frozen for a couple of months or it won’t grow. If a few leaves blow in, that’s all that’s necessary to grow Rhubarb.

My experience:

The above is not entirely true. I have been given Rhubarb plants in the past which have gone through freezing weather and I planted them into prepared soils… mulched with organic material… and on three occasions, they died. All were spring plantings.

Last spring we helped some people move and we dug up some Rhubarb, treated the roots with BioVam and mixed some mineral fertilizer into the soil and the plants have been growing just fine. Rhubarb is a non-mycorrhizal plant as are all the plants in the Cabbage family (Brassicae).

If Rhubarb is non-mycorrhizal, then why apply BioVam to the plant roots you ask? BioVam has VAM fungi in it, but it is also rich in quite a number of beneficial soil bacteria and that is what most non-mycorrhizal plants rely upon for getting their food. The area where I had planted the Rhubarb was barren and had not been cultivated for years. I had added organic material, but without an active ecosystem present, little benefit is imparted to plants. Adding organic material to the soil, doesn’t mean you are adding beneficial soil bacteria to the soils. That material can be a food source for bacteria, but BioVam has a more effective source of bacteria present. That’s why this time, the Rhubarb has continued to live instead of dying like in the other three attempts.

Another tidbit:
Some people claim that if you are growing in a thriving soil, then you don’t need products like BioVam. They claim that the mycorrhizal fungi will be thriving in such an environment. Mycorrhizal research findings show that VAM fungi occurs naturally at low levels and adding inoculum to established plants will increase root colonization percentages and produce significant plant responses tied to the VAM fungi. Add beneficial soil bacteria into the mix, especially if the bacteria is mycorrhiza helper bacteria (MHB) and the plant response will be greater and faster.

More tidbits:
Someone posted a summary written by an unknown author who claimed that mycorrhizal fungi only appear in the top couple of inches of soil. That is incorrect. VAM fungi grows primarily in what is known as the rhizosphere in the soil and can easily extend that rhizosphere deeper into the soils via the VAM hyphae. I have taken soil samples from turf grasses and have found vam fungi hyphae as deep as 20 inches into the soils where I have seen hyphae extending several inches out from the roots of the plants.

Our method of treating established plants such as fruit trees is to poke holes into the soil every 8 inches around the drip line at least 10-12 inches deep and then put in 1 teaspoon of BioVam into each probe hole. We had been told by certain scientists in the field that such procedures would not benefit mature plants because they were already “saturated” with mycorrhizal fungi. We were also told that treating mature plants would take a couple of years to show any benefits. We found research findings that refuted the saturation claims and our probe hole procedure consistently produced rapid results in established fruit trees, grapes, maples, quaking aspen, mountain ash, juniper, roses, raspberries, strawberries, tomatoes, cucumbers, squashes, beans, peas, onions, leeks, and many other veggie plants.

Best Regards,
Thomas Giannou
http://www.tandjenterprises.com - home of BioVam mycorrhiza.

FWIW

Here is a web site on MF, By a PHD in Soil science.

Try to insert any veggie in the subject search
http://www.mycorrhizae.com/home.html

**This post was edited by Trish**

.... says BioVam is the only mycorrhiza that claims to benefit vegetable plants.

I have already explained how to use Google.com to find other companies that support treating vegetables with VAM fungi.



When you get to Mike Amaranthus' web site, click on the link on the left that says "mycorrhizal applications."

Then, scroll down to the bottom of that page and select the article that says, "Type of Mycorrhizal plants."

Then, look at the list of plants and ask yourself this question: "Since Byron insists and is convinced that mycorrhiza can not be used on vegetables... and Byron claims to be one of the most expert of growers in the USA... then, "Why are all these vegetables listed here on this web site as plants benefited by endomycorrhizal fungi (VAM fungi)?"

Another question to ask is, "How many other points about mycorrhizal fungi is incorrectly described?" I've pointed out several points are incorrect.

Walk in peace, fellow gardeners!
Best Regards,
Thomas Giannou
http://www.tandjenterprises.com - home of BioVam Mycorrhiza and other goodies.

Byron, M. fungi is beneficial to vegetable crops. An article posted at the USDA website which was taken from the Agricultural Research Magazine:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/may01/fungi0501.htm

Pete

Here are some great articles on M. fungi and they even talk about it's use for growing vegetables. Wow! Maybe we should all be using this in our gardens. It might be interesting to do a test. Innoculate a portion of your garden crops with it and see if it does, in fact, make as big a difference as it's reported to.

http://www.garden.org/articles/scripts/articles.taf?id=1125&kwd=Mycorrhiza%20fungi&Articlesstart=

http://edugreen.teri.res.in/explore/bio/ferti.htm

Pete

Pete2

Yes there was a mention of some field crops, however the note was the high cost. Carrots are still in the liquid culture in the lab and not yet into the field, Many times lab stuff won't make it in the field.

This site also seems to be comparing worn out fields vs a home gardeners OG fed soils.. Is there a major difference?

Not sure if you are aware of it, so I'll toss it out. One of the concepts behind the Ruth Stout method was to grow your own MF. I translate her no till as the MF was considered very fragile and tilling would destroy it.

Maybe if I toss out these thoughts you can better understand my view.


On the web I can find many references to using MF with trees and shrubs. Data collected and written up by PHD's at USDA Schools and the US Forest Service.

I can also find a few references to the fact that the Phosphour content plays a major role in the success of MF.
I can also find a few references to MF works great for acid loving shrubs...

Here is what this inquiring mind would really like to know.

1. Is soil pH a factor.
2. What are the limits of soil Phosphour?
3. What soil types is it good for, IE Clay, sand, loam
4. I would love to see some comparison test with MF in poor soil, v well managed organic feed soils.
5. Is there a Zoneal problem will it die in extreme heat of Ariz desert or killed by deep freezing like -30F to -40F
6. Is this an annual expense or a one shot deal?
7. My personal reference from folks that tried it was it was a waste of money.
8. If I really need to add all of the following, It
doesn't fit this "Cheap" gardeners budget.
Looks like about $50 for 6 plants.

1. BioVam is not a fertilizer and so plants must be provided with nutrients in order for the mycorrhiza fungi and other helper microbes in the product to function properly. We recommend 15% organic material be mixed into the soils / planting medium. Use only well composted materials.

2. BioVam's active ingredients are alive and function best in soils that are also alive with a variety of micro and macro life forms... bacteria, protozoa, nematodes, earthworms, beneficial soil fungi, etc. Seek to maximize as many of those life forms as possible and your plants will remain healthy and produce good yields.

3. There are a number of fertilizer and mineral materials and microbe source materials that can be added into soils in which you are growing BioVam treated plants. We have experimented with a number of different sources and have come up with the following ingredients to go along with BioVam treated plants.

A. Biosol 6-1-3 general purpose organic fertilizer... 1 cup can be mixed into 1.5 cubic feet (9 sq ft 2 inches thick) of potting soil / soil and will provide a nice NPK source along with sulfate and magnesium and plenty of dormant fungal mycelium.
B. 18 cups of Zeolite mixed into 1.5 cubic feet (9 sq ft 2 inches thick) and will retain water and will hold onto positive ion nutrients and will do a cation exchange with mycorrhizal fungi and plant roots and will act as a slow release fertilizer. This material will also absorb items detrimental to VAM fungi colonization. It keeps the soil moist and loosened up.
C. 2 cups of mined gypsum granules mixed into 1.5 cubic feet (9 sq ft 2 inches thick) will provide calcium and sulfate ions to plants and will provide two other benefits attributed to gypsum as it works in the soils.
D. 1/4 cup of Ironite minerals mixed into 1.5 cubic feet (9 sq ft, 2 inches thick) will provide all the key minerals that plants need for health and vitality.
E. 1/2 cup of Rock Phosphate mixed into 1.5 cubic feet (9 sq ft, 2 inches thick) will provide phosphorous in a bound up form that is perfect for making this important mineral available to plants through the mycorrhizal fungi and helper bacteria in BioVam.
F. 9 cups of Bio-Peat mixed into 1.5 cubic feet (9 sq ft, 2 inches thick) will provide a plentiful supply of active bacteria, protozoa and beneficial fungi and will help build up soil populations of beneficial organisms.
G. Spray "Sure Grow" on such soils modified with the above ingredients to add bacteria that go after organic material and a multitude of enzymes that will enhance the entire ecosystem.

We sell some of the above ingredients: A, B, & F. The rest have to be hunted down locally. We are planning to bring all the above ingredients together in a fertilizer (A thru F) in a package that can be mixed into 1.5 cubic feet of potting soil / soil. We are currently testing the above combination of items in my "plastic tub garden" here in Spokane, WA. That experiment is working really well with my tomatoes, peppers, and onions.

I am not using any manures or composted material except what might be in the potting soil / top soil mixes we have purchased. If you can find worm castings, mixing 9 cups of those into 1.5 cubic feet would provide organic material,
nitrogen, and a source of microbe activity. In our area, we have a product called Black Gold, which has worm castings in it along with composted materials and is an excellent source medium to add the above A thru G ingredients. This whole system provides the resources you need to feed your plants and the microbes you need to make it function well. Add
BioVam to the roots of plants planted in that mediumand you will get superb results.

We have been experimenting with BioVam for four years and have gradually built up the above components of soil amendments that provide the necessary raw materials plants need and the microbes that cause the whole system to function well. One can combine the above with periodic brewing and spraying of compost tea extracts and have quite an effective, nutrient rich ecosystem in which plants thrive and produce great tasting fruit and vegetables. That's the goal I'm after in my own gardening efforts.

"One of the concepts behind the Ruth Stout method was to grow your own MF. I translate her no till as the MF was considered very fragile and tilling would destroy it."

What did Ruth Stout say about Mycorrhizal Fungi in her books? I have one of her books published back in 1971 which contains all of her Organic magazine stories. The words "Mycorrhizal Fungi" don't appear in the book, yet now, some 30+ years later "all of a sudden" growing your own Mycorrhizal Fungi has become one of her concepts? That simply isn't true. The title of her book is, "No-Work Gardening Book." The reason she stopped tilling her soils? She started using 8 inches of mulch and found you didn't have to till the soil. To her, tilling the soil became a lot of work! Thus the words in her book: "NO-WORK".

What Ruth was proud of: "...having figured out a method of gardening which brings top results with a minimum of labor."

Here's what Ruth accomplished with her methods: Ruth focused upon a rather thick layer of mulch which is used to feed the microbes and earthworms at the soil surface, to suppress weed growth, and to provide protection for plants she would plant in the midst of the mulch. The microbe life cycle would then provide nutrients to the plants. All that was done in such a way that she did not have to till the soil.

Ruth Stout developed her mulching method as her way of approximating a natural system for supplying nutrient material to plants via microbe and earthworm life processing the mulch.

There are some major flaws ...

Picture a 40 by 60 foot area that is covered with 8 inches of mulch. Until vegetable plants are planted in those soils, it’s an area with no plants growing there. Mycorrhizal fungi (VAM) out in the dirt does not grow from mulch (hay, clippings, or refuse from the kitchen). Mycorrhizal fungi (VAM) does not grow alone in the dirt and is not sustained by dirt / soil (tilled or not). Propagation of mycorrhizal fungi (VAM) in such a system is basically non-existent and such a system is very poor for that purpose even when plants are present there. Mycorrhizal fungi (VAM) grows out from the roots of live plants, but there are no live plants in that 40 by 60 foot area. Byron’s theory says we can grow our own VAM in that soil, but .. because there are no plants in that soil to sustain any mycorrhizal fungi. Where’s the mycorrhizal fungi going to come from? We can add some VAM to that soil, but that’s not growing your own when you do that. Besides it won’t live long in that environment without live plants.

After that mulch has sat there for a few months and has been kept at 8 inches in depth for a few months so the microbes and worms eat it up, there is still no mycorrhizal fungi VAM present in that environment. Now, the gardener comes along and moves the mulch aside a bit and plants some vegetable plants in those soils. According to Byron, vegetable plants don’t benefit from VAM fungi.

The ARS (Agricultural Research Service) link that Pete2 came up with is a good example of a system not suitable for propagation of mycorrhizal fungi (VAM). VAM fungi doesn't propagate worth a hoot in rich soil environments. Also, if you are able to propagate VAM fungi, you won't be very happy with the plants.

I was talking with the manufacturer of BioVam the other day and he said that when you are propagating mycorrhizal fungi, the plants look terrible. He said that’s a good way to tell that the propagation process is going strong. Such an environment is very low in plant nutrients but is highly favorable to the propagation of the VAM fungi.

The propagation environment is not the same as Ruth Stouts growing environment. The propagation environment is generally unsuitable for growing any kind of quality plants.

I can take a plant and put it into Ruth Stout's system and it will grow quite nicely, but it won't grow near as well as a plant I treat with BioVam and put into those same soils. Ruth Stout's system is NOT a VAM fungi propagation environment, but it is a great environment for growing excellent plants that have had VAM fungi and a lot of beneficial bacteria added to their roots.

Ruth Stouts mulch environment is a wonderful environment for growing plants treated with BioVam. A ? tsp of BioVam under a Carrot seed is more than sufficient in Ruth Stouts mulch environment. And look at the extreamly high cost!! 3 cents on a retail product out of a quart package! And .0027 cents if one purchases a 5 gallon bulk container of BioVam.

John Evans sent me an email this morning. Here’s what the exorbitant cost of .06 cents of BioVam produced: “I dug up one of the front row potato plants last evening and it produced 41 spuds that weighed 20lb 14 oz.” If John would have planted one acre of potatoes in rows 3 feet apart and plants two feet apart in the row, he would have 75 tons of spuds at that yield rate. The price per plant would be so expensive! .0054 cents per plant for the BioVam from a 5 gallon bulk bucket. John says he doesn’t even water his potato plants.

There are many different types of literature about VAM fungi on the internet. There’s literature about growing the fungi in agar solutions in glass containers in labs. There’s literature about growing the fungi in artificial soil environments. There’s literature about propagation of the fungi. There’s literature about how the fungi grows in the wild. There’s literature about applying the fungi to all kinds of plants including most vegetable plants. ... each of those points of literature have unique circumstances which do not transfer into the others.

You (Pete2) wrote:
"Wow! Maybe we should all be using this in our gardens. It might be interesting to do a test. Innoculate a portion of your garden crops with it and see if it does, in fact, make as big a difference as it's reported to."

I think you are on the right track with good ideas. Don't be sidetracked by .. false claims.

Thomas,

I have now edited 2 of your posts.

If you continue your current style of badmouthing people, any further posts will be completely deleted.

I think you have made your point. If you feel that you need to further reiterate your statement, please do so in a kind manner.

Trish

Pete2

An observation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The ARS (Agricultural Research Service) link that Pete2 came up with is a good example of a system not suitable for propagation of mycorrhizal fungi (VAM). VAM fungi doesn't propagate worth a hoot in rich soil environments. Also, if you are able to propagate VAM fungi, you won't be very happy with the plants.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The fungi only appears to work in poor soils.

I assume that means that if you have been feeding your garden compost and composted manure that the fungi would not work in good to great soils.

Not to worry, Sis! Byron and I are just having a friendly debate here. We agree on some things and disagree on others. Actually, I'm enjoying it. I love a challenge. LOL

Byron, you sure are making me work hard to find all this information! By the time we're through talking about it, I might even be an authority on it after all! LOL I've got to go pick my son up from school. He's sick with a fever and can't ride the bus home. I'll post some info I found a little later.

Pete

"The fungi only appears to work in poor soils. I assume that means that if you have been feeding your garden compost and composted manure that the fungi would not work in good to great soils. This factor is not included in advertizing.."

The assumption above is false. One process is the "propagation" of VAM fungi. It has everything to do with growing VAM fungi for later use, but nothing to do with treating and growing garden plants in firtile soils. VAM fungi is propagated in soils of low fertility which are not suitable for growing garden plants.

The second process is the application of VAM fungi for the benefit of plants that we grow in our gardens. This is done with plants to get the benefits of what VAM fungi can do for plants in firtile soils. This has nothing to do with the propagation of VAM fungi.

Those are two entirely different things. Propagation of VAM fungi does not work very well in rich / fertile soils. Any manufacturer worth their salt could have told the ARS folks they were not going to get very good results from their propagation attempts in a firtile environment.

Thomas, send me a free 5 gallon sample and I will try it out next year:) Just kidding.....will settle for 1 gallon:)

Owen

Oh I forgot, cost factors, Average home gardener grows 6 plants, Min purchace is $23 something plus $3 something for postage. Probably won't keep, that looks like over $4.50 per plant for the Vam alone.

But I also need to add all of this stuff to..


A. Biosol 6-1-3
B. Zeolite
C. 2 cups of mined gypsum granules
D. 1/4 cup of Ironite minerals .
E. 1/2 cup of Rock Phosphate .
F. 9 cups of Bio-Peat
G. Spray "Sure Grow"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If I buy all this stuff and divide up over 6 plants now what is my cost???

Byron, I'll be happy to address your questions now. :-)

Byron: "This site also seems to be comparing worn out fields v a home gardeners OG fed soils.. Is there a major difference?"

Pete: Yup

Byron: "Another thing that you should note, The reference that the site you sent was wrong. And none of the real questions asked were answered. This is not unusual."

Pete: What site are you referring to and what questions did you ask me? Was it the "inquiring minds want to know" list?I thought those questions were for Thomas but if they were for me then we need to be on the same page before I attempt to answer them. Since we are primarily interested in growing vegetables, either at home or on the farm, let's limit the discussion to vesicular arbuscular mycorrhizae (VAM) which is the ectomycorrhizae used for vegetables.

Okay, Byron. Fire away.

Pete

"let's limit the discussion to vesicular arbuscular mycorrhizae (VAM) which is the ectomycorrhizae used for vegetables."

VAM is ectomycorrhiza? When did that happen? Mother nature must have changed her mind eh?

Why am I getting the strange uneasy feeling that VAM is a Vicious Anti-Mater? I can just picture it creeping slowly but surely through my tomato patch, consuming everything it reaches (except the weeds, of course):)

Please cancel my request for a free gallon of the stuff:)

Gardens Alive sells a product that looks to be the same stuff.....that's where I bought my Tomatoes Alive product a few yrs. ago, and boy was that a waste of my money....or was it a free sample now that I think about it:)

This is the most humorous thread on this site.....just like a soap opera only better:)

Shhhhhhhhhh, Thomas. This is a test and I want to see if Byron catches it. LOL

Pete

Owen, did you happen to notice how many views this topic had gotten? That's incredible!

Awe shucks! I guess I have to fess up. That really was my fault on the endo/ecto. I made a typo flipping back and worth to get the real meaning and spelling of the intials VAM. What a mouthful! I guess I just got myself out of going to confession tomorrow huh? LOL

Pete

Hi Pete2,

I figured you probably got it turned around, but you never know. This is a thread known for defining what nature isn't in several places. So, I thought I'd ask the question. So you can cancel you confession appointment.

Did you know there is an endoecto mycorrhiza?

Byron, I'll see if I can find those answers for you but you need to clarify a couple of points for me first okay?

Here are your questions as I read them:

1. Is soil pH a factor?

2. What are the limits of soil Phosphour?
Byron, that question seems kind of confusing. I know you probably have something specific in mind that you'd like to find out. Could you rephrase that question for me please?

3. What soil types is it good for, IE Clay, sand, loam?

4. I would love to see some comparison test with MF in poor soil, v well managed organic feed soils.
I'm not sure I can find that test info but I'll try. Would you like to ask a _specific_ question about performance in rich organic soils vs bad, depleted soils? For instance, fertilizer requirements, pest infestations, etc.??

5. Is there a Zoneal problem? Will it die in extreme heat of Ariz desert or killed by deep freezing like -30F to -40F? Are both of these questions concerning temperature and the optimum performance of VAM?

6. Is this an annual expense or a one shot deal?

7. My personal reference from folks that tried it was it was a waste of money.
8. If I really need to add all of the following, It
doesn't fit this "Cheap" gardeners budget.
Looks like about $50 for 6 plants.

Questions 7&8: Byron, I think you are asking if this is a product that is affordable for the home gardener right? As for your friends, we can't really discuss personal tests on VAM because it is possible the gardeners didn't follow the VAM innoculation directions properly. I think we need to stick to USDA, research trials, etc. We know those folks followed directions properly okay?

Any other questions about VAM? I'll try to find them. BTW, I will post whatever I find about VAM whether it's good or bad.

Pete


This message was edited Saturday, Sep 1st 10:28 AM

This message was edited Saturday, Sep 1st 10:32 AM

Pete,

Soil pH,

Reason I ask this, There is a lot of info using
the Fungi for Acid loving plants, trees and berries that prefer a soil pH around 5.5, Most garden veggies do better
in a soil pH of 6.5 to 7.0.

There are some very important issuses of soil pH and garden
chemicals like aluminum sulfate and epsom are the first 2 that cross my mind.

Soil Phosphour.

IIRC above, I posted a link to Colo. State, The essence was that if the soil phosphour was lower than 50 ppm the fungi is a benefit. Above 50 ppm the fungi did not work.
A now lost UGA site claimed that adding Fungi to a soil where the Phosphour is above 120 ppm it could actually kill your plants.

I would seem to me that one should at least do a soil P test before ordering.. (added expense)



Questions 7& 8 would be out of a search.

Zonal Problems, In the past Thomas mentioned about the Fungi surviving in a car at 90F heat. I read it as someone ordered some, left the order in the car, The fungi did not survive the heat, The number, as I recall, was around 90F. Does this mean that for southern growers, when the soil temp gets up to 90F the fungi will die?

If the fungi survives the winter, How low can the temps go for survival? ~ Similar to Zone plants..

I do have a funny feeling that this is an annual application.



Add this one in also:
From the time I add the fungi, how long does it take to notice a difference?

Byron

I have asked esp the phosphour question for over 3 years, You have yet to answer it. Academia says that phosphour is a key issue in the Fungi working or not.

I have read the debate here with some interest, but to be honest, I am completely turned off by the constant barrage of "commercials" (vis a vis links to your BioVam website.)

Undoubtedly there are many members who would like to use the forums to put in a plug for their services and products. But they don't because they are ethical and sensitive to the spirit of these forums. Please take a clue from the absence of any other self-serving hyperlinks, and give it a rest - we KNOW you sell BioVam already.

What a thread! I can hardly sleep at night anymore for wondering what the next message is going to be in here! I have resorted to taking prescription sleeping pills:) This has got to be the most exciting and stimulating thread in DG!

Hey Thomas......how about a free sample for just one little ole 'mater plant? Is the treatment good for just one year?

Just think of the business you could generate if you gave every member in here a small free sample to try next year:) Of course, the product would have to work in order to generate future paid orders from us:) You could deduct the value of the free samples as an advertising expense.

Love free samples,
Owen

Any other comments? Let's go ahead and wrap this thread up - it's getting long in the day and I'd like to see some "final comments" made by people.

Let's allow each person to have one more post, and then let the thread die. Shall we say by tomorrow evening the thread may be closed for new posts?

Dave