Apropos of Nothing v.18

So my cautiousness is well met - I won't rule the dog out just yet, I will do as Portland did with Koka - meet and greet and see how she is. I am also asking for a full history - to find out why she is being rehomed (in these days of job loss it can be no fault of the dog, just a change in circumstance). I love Sofer's approach to rehoming animals - but without your experience, animal patience, and skills - the really tough ones are beyond me (I'm definately passing on the one who needs a home and is described as having a 'high prey instinct' - been there and done that one! And with sheep just 6 metres across the lane I think it would not be a good location for her)!

Otherwise, I'll just have to wait until my name makes it to the top of the puppy list.

Since my daughter's dog Bleecker has moved in my Koka has developed some bad habits. Each of them alone are well-behaved, but when they are together they run amok. For instance, when the UPS truck comes Koka will usually bark until I open the door and then she greets the delivery person on the front porch with tail wagging. Bleecker however tries to get rid of the person with barking and chasing, and yesterday Koka followed her and did the same. It was difficult to get Koka back on the porch. She knows she is not allowed to leave the front porch without me, but she has forgotten that rule with Bleecker's encouragement. I am having to be very strict with Koka right now and it's frustrating. Sofer, help!

Have her drink 12 oz of Pabst Blue Ribbon 1/2 hour before UPS arrival.

It's pretty classic that dogs' behavior is reduced to the lowest common denominator when they're together. My brother says it's like that with men, too. LOL And it's probably like that with women, as well.

I would focus on Bleeker. Do you have a command for her when there's someone at the door that tells him what to do? Like sit. Practice having someone knock and the front door. Give her the command to sit (or whatever you want) and then treat her and praise her.

Once she has this down, you can change it up so you have the person at the door give the treat (just don't let her get up first). Put the treats on a bag clipped to the front door for visitors.

The good thing is that it goes both ways, when one dog is doing the right thing and getting treats, the other dog soon follows suit.

Dogs that are in group rarely obey. It is not their nature. The greeting of any pack or non-pack member is always the same. Confident domination with alpha's, followed by less dominate response with beta's, and sheer viscious aggression with Gamma pack members. If you are present and the dogs see you as Alpha they will follow your greeting to the stranger. Therefore have you walk up and greet the UPS guy with them tethered to show his acceptance into the packs area. Welcome him/her into the pack and have them pet the tethered dogs. The dogs will follow this when you are present. If you are gone everything is different. No way of knowing their response. Pack animals never split up and when they do the order we want changes each time.
I think UPS needs to change their look.

I didn't know Karen was working for UPS.

Wow, Steve, I disagree with the vicious aggression part - depends on the dogs, circumstance, visitor, etc. None of the dogs in my pack is ever vicious. And my "gamma" dog is very shy and quiet.

I suspect that you don't want the dogs to overwhelm the UPS guy at all, whether it's with welcome or barking, so it's best to let them know how you want them to behave and then reinforce that. I agree with the tethering if you can't work with them before to get solid behavior.

They are like kids . . . and even positive excitement is had to resist. IMO, it's an impulse control thing and they just need to be incented to remember to follow your instructions.

Nice picture, Steve. You're such a guy.

yes Karen is retireing soon so we are placing her in a more productive position.
Gamma dogs when NOT around their alpha are IMO very aggressive. They are there to protect the lair and cannot do it when the alpha is absent without aggression. I get bit more often by gamma dogs with female owners accompaning them to the office. Without notice or warning.
My GD on the other hand uses skill learned to overwhelm the visitor.

Your granddaughter is beautiful. Hope she doesn't grow up to be a UPS driver so someone can post her picture on the internet. ^_^

I know you have lots of experience with dogs, Steve. But you're in a unique position when providing veterinary treatment. I just don't think the experience you relate converts to the statement you made.

I think there's a different between you having gotten bit by more gammas with female owners in the vet office and the assumption that gammas always greet strangers with sheer vicious aggression.

Not all dogs are hugely territory conscious. Not all dogs have low bite inhibition. Not all dogs are fear biters.

So much depends on the circumstances, the breed of the dogs, the socialization of the dog, the ownership of the dog, etc.

Anyway, your granddaughter is surely beautiful and knows how to wrap granddad around her finger.

I agree Kathy not all but many.

I hope someday you'll meet my pack. They'll love you to death. LOL

I often wonder what my dog does when no one is home. She stays outside and is always on the basketball court waiting for me when I return, although I'm sure she recognizes my car. The neighbors have told me they have never seen her on the road or wandering around anywhere so I'm fairly certain she sticks close to the house. I did see a funny gadget advertised somewhere - a mini camera you mount on your dog's collar and set to take a photo every 15 minutes or so. Might be interesting.

If I put that camera on my dog's collar I would get to see lots of other dogs' butts.

Koka is so aware of the rules that I have set, and always comes when called and if I hold up my hand and then point to the floor when she is barking at something outside she immediately stops barking and lies down. But when my daughter's dog is here, she forgets all rules and does not come when called.

Our UPS person bears no resemblance to that photo...

ROFL.

Our UPS bears no resemblance the wish of that photo - or to US UPS at all!! No not true, we do have brown trucks, and those spiffy electric ones in town. I do wonder how that woman ended up thinking that what she is doing is a career option.

I have to admit I am utterly baffled as to how to be an alpha leader, a beta second, or a gamma groupie. This is probably why my dog never, ever, not once in his long doggie life 'came' when called without first stopping, scowling and muttering "what" through terse whiskers - assessing whether it was worth 'coming', and then generally telling me 'in a minute'. Portland, I can only dream of a terrier with the obedience that Koka gives you. But then you do have great sounding kids, which I still believe comes from great, well boundaried, mums.

I always demanded obedience from my dogs. I can remember as a kid having my mother ask me to call the dog because she would never come for her. But my mother always sounded tentative or cajoling when she did it, so of course the dog would look at her in utter contempt and then go back to whatever far more fascinating and important matter she was pursuing.

I will certainly keep that in mind, GG, next time I am calling a dog - no cajoling or tentativeness. Now written on the palm of my hand.

This message was edited Aug 28, 2010 12:03 PM

Call firmly and picture the dog coming. That helps. Of course, it helps to have a dog that wants to please, too!

I think this '''alpha' thing as the road to obedience can be overplayed. Dogs can recognized you as pack leader and still not obey every command. Kids do it to their pack leaders all the time. Once they're older and have some control of their impulses it helps to get the correct behavior out of the repeatedly.

Being alpha doesn't help if the dog isn't motivated. If you have a very sensitive dog it can hurt if you are too firm. Repeated behavior develops chemical grooves in our brains - that's why it's hard to change habits. You need to make it a habit for your dog to come so that he's not making a new decision every time you call.

Carry tiny 'treats' in your pocket - cheese, meat, cat food kibble. Each time the dog comes, reward him with a treat and praise. After awhile, it'll be his habit to come and you can give him treats every other time, and then not at all. Behavior modification is the key. Control the situation to set your dog up for success, be very clear about what you expect (ignore it when he's wrong, immense praise when he's right) and repeat.

Remember, Laurie, that terriers were bred to hunt independently, so they're pre-programmed to ignore you. It's not the same as with a working/herding breed that's pre-programmed to look at the human. So it may take a bit.

I do agree with giving commands clearly and firmly as though you expect to be followed. But your dog really needs to understand what you're requesting first.

This gal conditions using a sound. Some people use a clicker. This gal uses woohoo. That indicates to your dog that he has copied the desired behavior and a treat is coming!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1Q9SVFOWu4

Good plan, thanks GG and Katie - I am making notes.

Good luck, Laurie. I think every home needs a dog!! (Well, except, maybe for those with white carpet and furniture . . .)

Have you seen this, Penquins chasing a butterfly -

http://uk.video.yahoo.com/watch/8145000

There is something about the social aspect of it, the joining in and the group at the end - so touching. Really sweet.

One of my pet peeves is dog owners not accepting or taking responsibility for the kind of dog they choose, and understanding how that dog will or will not meet their expectations. And then when things don't work out they blame it on the dog. I know there are exceptions and sometimes there may be a dog that is not "typical" of it's breed, but generally I think it's a failure on the part of the human to choose and then to train. Kind of like a woman choosing a "bad guy type" boyfriend and then complaining because he wouldn't change to meet her needs. Or a guy choosing a career-minded woman and then expecting her to stay home and clean the house. Hello?

The penguin butterfly video is very cute!

Awwww! Cute penguins! :)

Apropos of nothing- we went fishing yesterday, (didn't catch anything) and I learned beyond a shadow of a doubt that my back does NOT appreciate me wading around in a river for several hours. I'm a seriously hurtin' unit today. But we're getting ready to go to the garlic festival in Chehalis, and I am determined to have fun even if it kills me. LOL

Side note: I look like the Michelin man when I wear waders. ;p

Hello everyone.
I'm so glad my UPS man doesn't look like that photo. He's bald, and friendly, carries dog treats in his pockets, loves my dogs, and always stops to view the garden. My kind of guy.
Steve, she's a heart stopper! No treats required.

I think all owners need to understand the action of their chosen breeds. Then decide which level of control they wish to use. Understand most people get a dog for unconditional love not for the training. This results in most dogs training their owners. Those who wish to train will benefit in the relationship they establish. I for one have become less demanding on my dogs total obediance and have let my Jack/Border Terriers to have their way most of the time. What I demand is they respond to my commands when given and no delay and they are good with this. It is just that I don't command very often. I like it this way. It allows my terriers to be themselves without conflict with me. Not barking, no running away, and coming when called are the demands I have on them. The rest is optional.

I feel not so bad about not being able to get my dog to 'come' when she is in the midst of chasing a squirrel.

Buddy barks every time someone walks up the driveway, even if it's one of us. How do we stop that? Or do we want to? Now that the kids are all gone, I do like having the notice that someone is coming. Is it too much to expect him to not bark when it's one of our family, but to bark the rest of the time? I would be happy if he'd just stop barking when I tell him to. How do I get him to stop barking when I give that command?

My dogs bark when anything is astray. But when I say "No Bark" they wait until I can't be seen to start up again. LOL

You have smaller dogs = smaller barks. When one of our dogs bark, it sets off the neighborhood dogs.

When squirrels are involved, all bets are off! I have resigned myself to the fact that Koka will chase squirrels, and she loves to chase them, and I think she dreams about chasing them, and so I now just let her do it, as long as she is in a safe place where she can't run into a street, etc.

When I want Koka to stop barking I say "down and stay" and she gets down and stops barking. It is a dilemma - I like that fact that she barks when someone is approaching, but it would be nice if they only barked at evil-doers!

I had 3 yorkies and the mom and dad were not agressive hunters, but the daughter was. She loved to chase squirrels and grab snakes and snap them in two. She was only 6 lbs. Once there was an awful lot of barking going on and I went out to find all three dogs chasing a squirrel. The baby dog had ahold of its tail. The squirrel finally made it up the fence and dragged the dog with it. I thought she let go but when I went to check, the squirrels tail had broken off. If it had not and he had gone up a tree, she would have fallen and been killed. For years we saw that squirrel running down the fence with half a tail but he never went into the yard again. I tried to keep her from chasing birds and killing snakes but the instinct was too strong, she could not stop.

Both the dogs I have now are non agressive and pretty useless, thank goodness they are cute. Both are rescues, one from the animal shelter, he is a lowchen, he was abused and still has some issues after 9 years, the bichon was a loved animal but people could not find a place to rent with him and gave him to me. He would be so shocked if he was actually ever hit, yelling no no at him makes him shake and hide. Tiger, on the other hand, remembers when he was beat and to this day is terrified of hats, newspapers and sticks of any kind. Brooms send him snarling and shaking to his corner in the back bathroom. We have a bed in there for him, its his safe place and no one will bother him there. His former owners smoked weed and if anyone comes in with a faint scent, that we cannot smell, he can smell it and goes nuts. We got him at 5 months but the damage was done, he is such a terrific dog, I dunno how anyone could abuse him, or any puppy for that matter.

So we have been lucky with our rescues, Tiger has some issues but he is so worth it.

Changing subject -- when do all you clematis-in-trees folks cut back your clems? I have a jackmanni type in a lilac that I don't like to leave over the winter because any snow makes it too heavy and wrecks the lilac. I think I usually hack it back to about 2' in the fall, but thought I'd get input from the experts.

Another subject change- Happy Birthday, Lynn! :)

Happy birthday Lynn - hope you enjoyed a relaxing day outside.

Happy Birthday Lynn!
This is your baby!!

Many thanks on all the doggie views. Much appreciated. I have decided to 1) ask for a history, 2) visit with the dog, 3) ask them to bring the dog for a visit and sleep over 4) make sure I have time to work with the dog so I lead when I want, and they have the rest of the time 5) appreciate that I do like the dog barking at someone's arrival but to stop when I say (fingers crossed on that one since it is a terrier) and 6) appreciate that although my dog never did do 'come' (he was brillant at 'leave it' would surrender anything, except once when he had a vole after I took the baby rabbit away). and finally 7) I loved his terrier nature and never lost sight that is why I had him - so I did okay. He had a lovely life, and boy, do I still miss him.

Okay - so we will see what the doggie rehomer makes of us and whether we are towards the top of the list.

Happy birthday Lynn

And today is the last day of my summer month off - back to the smoke tonight, and back to work tomorrow morning. It has been a brillant break, just brillant - and it looks to be a fine day today for finishing. One last one. The summer has changed to 'late' summer - temperatures are cool, back under blankets at night, and time to shut up the greenhouse before ending the day. Doubt that the outdoor tomato plants will ripen (must stop growing them - waste of time! Stick to the indoor ones), and just got a delivery of manure for autumn mulching. Love this time of year. I'm guessing that by time we come home this week the woodlands will have started their autumnal change. And just 2 more Mondays before I start my drawing class. I've been practising by drawing the cows - great tolerant subjects - they just plonk themselves down in groups and singles and let me get on with it, occassional head toss, but otherwise good sitters, lovely bulkly shapes (I've been bribing them to sit in the upper fields by throwing them the giant zucchinis/courgettes - my goodness they start salivating as soon as I walk towards the bed!). Good for doing a lot of pencil sharpening with that nice pencilly smell (portland, I've been trialing pencils during the break, and you are right - wood not mechanical for me - I can't tilt the mechanical lead the way I can the wood. But we will leave that for a technical discussion).

I'm readying for the next season. Its been a good summer.

Hap B Day my dear Lynn. Today I do a round Flathead Lake Nursery, house shopping with friends, and drinking "Moose Drool" at every bar we stop at. A Montana tradition.