Talking about other forums

Can I get some written clarification (or pointed to the right place to find it) about the "no talking about other forums on this forum" rule?

Thanks,

Kathleen

Discussing other forums falls under one of three headings:

1) informational references to other sites and forums, which are generally fine (if the content is inappropriate we'll remove the link);

2) promoting of your own website or forum, favorite organization or charity, which is not fine (and is prohibited under the current AUP and proposed rules; and

3) soliciting members to join another forum or website, which is also not fine and falls under the heading of general etiquette rules. (People have long understood the concept of "no solicitation" so we've never had a specific rule against it. But we do remove posts that are made for that purpose.

Does that help answer your question? If not, let me know and I'll take another stab at it.

That's a good start. Thanks. There are some words you used that I don't really understand fully in this context.

When would content be "inappropriate" under item 1? Are you referring to language or content?

It seems like there's a lot of room for confusion under number 2. Could I steer you to participation on another website that wasn't "mine" (such as Facebook, even though the page on Facebook is mine), but not to a forum that was considered mine (such as on cubits.org, which is also not mine, but in which I might have a cubit)? I.e., is the key here "promotion" or "your own"?

Regarding the concept of promotion. What if I steer you to a forum I run for somebody else? Does it matter how I steer you? What if I just suggest that you visit it vs. asking that you go there and do something specific?

Is the concern that I shouldn't receive any benefit at all from meeting you on Dave's or just that I shouldn't receive any monetary benefit from meeting you on Dave's?

I often suggest to people that they go somewhere else and ask a question because the audience is different. If I did that and was considered by someone to "own" or "run" that other place, then would I be promoting it?

Thanks,

Kathy

My comment about the links was more about inappropriate content. We've had a few links we removed because the content was not something we would allow anyone to post directly to the site, so when someone pointed it out, we removed the link.

#2 really doesn't have much confusion (or at least we haven't encountered much confusion.) If you are promoting your own site or business, it's not permitted.

If you are attempting to promote a charity or other organization, we also don't allow it. (It might be a very worthy cause, but if we allowed one, we'd have dozens spring up instantly, and some of them might not be so altruistic.) And people don't want to wade through pleas for money, good cause or not.

Probably a better example than Facebook is when someone has a blog and they want to add a link to their blog in every post they make. It quickly gets irritating, and people begin to wonder if they're posting to be part of the conversation, or just to insert their blog in front of the audience. As a rule, we don't allow those kinds of taglines to be added.

If you run a forum for someone else, we would look at that as your forum, so you can't promote it. (You can add a link from your member page if you'd like.) It doesn't really matter if you steer them there generally or for a specific purpose, it's probably not okay.

There are several reasons for these rules, most of them falling under one or both of these reasonings:

The first is the sensibilities of our members - people don't come here to be spammed by fellow members, or encouraged and enticed to join other websites, to give to worthy causes or otherwise endure solicitations.

The second is that ads should remain separate and distinct from forum posts. You shouldn't have to wonder if the advice you got to try a product or service had an underlying profit motive attached. (It doesn't mean it won't happen, but we don't condone that type of behavior and we do have a longstanding rule against self-promotion.)

And secondarily if some businesses are paying to help support the site through ad revenue, it isn't fair to them to allow other businesses to use their free membership or even a paid subscription to freely advertise in the forums.

These are the same rules we would hold ourselves to - we don't go to another gardening site and promote DG there, and we don't ask our members to, either. It's just one of those general courtesies that we extend to other sites, and we expect to have extended here as well.

So if I'm running (not determining content, just administering) another site with information that I think could be helpful to someone who has just posted on a thread, what is the "appropriate" course of action?

Tell them that you have information that could benefit them and then ask for their personal email address or phone number? D-mail them? Announce on the thread that you have information and ask anyone who is interested to contact you?

Obviously, it's not the obvious self-promotion or extreme self-promotion for business purposes and monetary gain I'm asking about. I think those speak for themselves and I'm old enough and observant enough to understand that. I'm not asking for detailed clarification of that.

It's the broad (and I believe, ambiguous) definition of "promote" that sometimes results in a strange "lock down" of information sharing, which, I don't believe is your intention.

If I administer a cancer research site and a thread discussion is regarding information regarding research on this kind of cancer, is it self promotion to make you all aware of that site? If you've posted a recipe here, is it self-promotion to ask you to post it on another site I maintain? What if I don't even maintain that site?

I'm guessing these are hypotheticals, and we could come up with countless what-ifs, but it all boils back down to what is your motivation for linking to another site in a forum post? Is it to provide helpful information, or to promote that site?

If you signed up for a membership here and the only thing you did was provide a link to your site, then yes, it would be self-promotion and we would remove your link.



Yes, that is self-promotion.



That would then beg the question why would you you ask someone to post a recipe to that site. ;o)

Again, I get the argument about not wanting to gain membership or gain money or gain fame for another site using DG. I get that. Really, I get it. ^_^

I think I have pinpointed where the disconnect is when you don't define self-promotion: You are assuming that everybody is acting ONLY in the interest of personal gain and your premise is, then, that all the other sites out there in the big, wide Web are out there only to promote the interests of those who maintain them.

The reason I was confused by your choice of words is that sharing recipes or cancer information is not my idea of self-promotion. I am on the Web solely to share ideas and information with other people.

It seems to boil down to this: If a DG member wants to share any information here with another site/different audience or recommend to anybody else that they share information with another site/different audience, then it is okay to do so as long as they aren't in any way affiliated with maintenance the other site/page/blog or do business on the other site/page/blog.

Is that what DG's policy is?

I don't think we make that assumption at all. Looking at the plethora of links around the forums, the general premise is that the links are for informational purposes, which is perfectly fine.



There's nothing wrong with sharing recipes or cancer information. But if you ask people to join your site (or a site you are helping build up and/or maintain) and ask them to re-post the same information they already posted here, that would seem to be a self-promoting activity, and your fellow members may not view those actions favorably.



I'd put it this way: each individual member is free to choose the sites they want to be part of, post to, help administer, own and operate. We do not own your content so you can re-post it in as many places as you'd like.

But when you use your access to a website (whether it's DG or any other site) in order to contact the members and ask/encourage them to participate in a separate website, then that is an act of self-promotion and posts of that nature may be removed.



Our current policy is here: http://davesgarden.com/aboutus/tos/ - Paragraph 9 covers the majority of what we've discussed in this thread.

Proposed new rules and guidelines are set out in the draft DG rules here: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1096173/
and the draft Terms-of-Use here:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1096175/

You are welcome to comment on the proposed rules and TOU if you think we need more clarification on this particular issue.

OK. Thanks for your time.

You're welcome...if we can be of further assistance, please know we're here to answer any questions you have.

Wow. I learned something today.

Here's why when I post about my horses, I often link my blog..

Sheer, utter, laziness.

I'm not typing the same ride story three or four times, to cover Facebook, DG, cubits, and my blog. I have a regular job to do, and some days, I scramble just to get one entry done. Yes, I could copy/paste. But why? Why on earth can't I just come here, and say on the Equine Forum, "Hey ladies, had a GReAT ride last night , you can read about it here... ____" and link my blog? All that "promotes" is that I have great news I want to share with anyone else that wants to read.

I would guess that most of us DG paying subscribers aren't "exclusive" to here. In some "DG perfect world", that might be the Administration's dream. But I can't get news here, I can't get local weather here, and all of my friends aren't here. I have friends in more places, at websites they also enjoy. Not everyone wants to choke up $25 annually to read my horse stories when they're on my blog just the same.

I make zero money from my blog. I don't think blogger.com makes money when people read my stories. I don't link back advertisements there, either (I don't think..). So what is the harm if there's no profit to be found other than other websites get visitors?

Not all blogs are created equal ;o)

Some blogs are monetized. Some are for commercial interests (a product or service the blogger offers). There's no way we can check or "vet" everyone's blog and keep track of which are commercial and which aren't. So to be fair to all, we don't let people routinely sign their posts with a link to their blog or website, or otherwise promote them here.

I don't "sign routinely"... But if something awesome happens in the tack, or I've got competition results to detail, I'm not doing it two or four extra times.

So we're NEVER allowed to link back to YouTube? Or any other website anywhere in the world? What if someone asks a question, and there's a website that better answers it than we can? I do this a lot! I'm no teacher, but I'm good at research - so I'll google a question, find an answer that fits, and link back...

The new (and apparently former) administration need a better set of rules on what can be linked and what can't. Where does it end?

The rules haven't changed at all. Linking to other sites for informational purposes has always been fine. The Acceptable Use Policy has always been clear on where we draw the line:

"Members are restricted from utilizing the Dave's Garden services for self-promotion of themselves, their website, or their organization, or to solicit items or monies for charities or fundraisers. Members may not utilize the service to create business opportunities, without express prior written permission from an officer of Dave's Garden. This includes, but is not limited to, advertising products or services in any communication medium, including, but not limited to, the discussion forums and the member E-mail system. "

It may not seem like a big thing if you want to tout your blog, your business, your favorite charity. But with over half-a-million members, if everyone did that, you'd have to wade through a lot of promotional stuff to get to anything meaningful in the threads. No one wants to do that.

I'm not "touting my blog". I'm too lazy to type it out to every group I visit. Seriously...

For example.... You have "Southern Living" linked in your profile. Is that "legal"?

The motivation is impossible for us to know, especially with any certainty. But since there are some people who are very aggressive in promoting their business, cause, etc., we have to be fair and ask everyone to follow the same guidelines and rules.

In your member profile, you can link to your blog. You can link to your business. You can link to your favorite charity. You can link to your favorite website(s) - and yes, one of my favorites sites/magazines is Southern Living ;o)

Thank for this clarification...
At least, I think it's clarified.

Are we still allowed to link back to any websites that answer questions?

This message was edited May 19, 2010 6:57 AM

Sure, as long as it's not your own site ;o)

And who's policing those to make sure we're not getting anything for the linkback?

We expect members to know and voluntarily follow the rules--it's what we all agreed to when we signed up.

When an admin has to edit or delete something, those same rules are the guidelines we follow.

understood

I just got caught up *in* this discussion.
I'll just throw this out there.
"I ran across this great site and posted a project I'm working on to the site.... have a look. What do you think?"
http://www.craftster.org/

I appreciate the way Terry keeps a lid on what is allowed here even when she deletes something I submitted. It makes me a little upset at first but then I think there is a time and place for everything and if I can`t share something here I can share it somewhere else. The rules are there so people don`t feel singled out or mistreated when they have to make changes to posts. I`m just glad someone besides me gets to make the choice of what stays and what goes. I have decided to just trust the admins and enjoy this site for what is allowed. :)

Karen

I too, have the highest respect and appreciation for Mel and Terry and I've told them so. I'm just wondering about policy on this particular question.

I appreciate the answers to a question I wondered about myself many times. Karen

Aguane, are you asking if you can post a link to a "sister" site, which is also owned by the same parent company?

My answer would the same as for anything else - it depends on the context of what you posted and why you posted it.

If you post a link that is for informational purposes in answer to someone's question, that's fine.

If you post it simply to create a link (and traffic) to your own page/blog, or name-drop and promote another site of which you are a member, then we may use our discretion to remove it (assuming we see it...and we don't pretend to see everything.)

If I missed the point of your example, I apologize - please let me know what your question was, and I'll take another run at it.

I have wondered about this kind of thing before myself. Is this a craft project where the people need to go sign up and join a message board to participate? Does it make a difference what company owns the message board web site? Ever since DG has been sold to IB my nerves have been on edge about my participation on other web sites affecting my DG membership.

Karen

Thanks, Terry.
You've addressed my question and the answer is as I'd hoped. It's the DG *policy* (no soliciting, no promoting of self), not another specific forum or site, that is important.