Miracle Grow Garden Soil - problem?

Pine bark for the gritty mix --- 1/8 - 1/4" uncomposted is ideal.

Pine bark for the 5:1:1 mix --- dust to 3/8" partially composted is ideal. No problem if it's uncomposted, but watch a little closer for signs of N immobilization (deficiencies) & fertilize accordingly.

Al

Al,
Thank you so much for all the valuable and interesting info! I will pick up some quarter inch mesh hardware wire and make myself a pine bark "sifter". I too was impressed by your excellent shop practices in your screens. I will attempt to make mine (nearly) as nice as yours.

What I meant about the 3-6-9 was "The picture below shows what the pine bark should look like, at 3, 6, and 9, and what the soil looks like when finished and dry." I don't need to know now as I was just trying to get the screen mesh size to buy.

Al,
Have you ever seen this product as calcined DE? I've been reading up, and seems like it's 100% calcined DE, and can be purchased at NAPA auto stores.

One writer noted that the product was rinsed first because the resultant "murky" water contained mechanical pesticide which was then sprayed on trees containing aphids. The aphids were dead the next day...Do you rinse your shop absorbent first to rinse off any pesticides?

It's $8 for a 25lb bag...

http://inlinethumb08.webshots.com/36167/2570595470101670464S425x425Q85.jpg

This message was edited Jul 21, 2010 9:39 AM

PB - You're welcome.

I'm able to get the bark products as they are shown and can use them w/o screening. Those at 3-6-9 work in the 5:1:1, and fir bark @ 12 o'clock for the gritty mix, but it looks like my subsequent post covered that - serendipity ..... and I'm sure a 'retired engineer' will come up with screens nicer than those I slapped together from 1x4s. ;o)

Yes - I talk about the NAPA calcined DE all the time. It holds a little more water than Turface on a size for size basis, and it has a little better CEC (holds nutrients a little better - which isn't a particularly big plus in container culture. It also comes in with a pH of around 7.0, which is higher than you would prefer for containers, but it still works very well. The pH of Turface is around 6.0 - 6.2, with the ideal pH for container media being somewhere between 5.0-6.2, about a full point lower than ideal for garden/mineral soils.

There's a difference between a mechanical pesticide and a chemical pesticide. A hammer is a mechanical pesticide. ;o) The tiny particles in the dust of DE are as sharp as tiny slivers of glass (they almost ARE glass, being mostly silica) and cut into the exoskeleton of insects that contact the dry powder. The insects then dehydrate. Though you should wear a mask when you work with it, you needn't worry too much. Food grade DE is commonly mixed with stored food stuffs, particularly grains, so you're ingesting it on a regular basis.

Al

Thanks, Al.

Remember, I'm dumping everything into the RBs at my new location. Depending on how much depth I actually get from the two beds of veggie garden blend + the eBucket dump + the NAPA calcined DE, I may have some excess of the container mix left in the eBuckets. Since I'm most comfortable growing in those buckets anyway, that's not a problem for me!

So, from what I've read so far, I probably should start with the 10 GALLONS of old soil (veggie garden blend) + a 1-2 cu ft bag of bark/soil conditioner + 3 GALLONS of Perlite + 1-1/4 cups of lime + Calcined DE (how much?)?

I'll add the eBucket mixes only if I need additional soil in the beds.

Thanks!

There's a blip on the radar. ;o) I'm so used to talking about container gardening that I forgot you were talking about raised beds. While the calcined DE isn't nearly as bad as DE intended for use as a mechanical insecticide, and its effectiveness is considerably reduced under moist conditions, I think I'd forgo it's use in raised beds and go with a calcined clay product like Turface, or just stick with sand, or very fine lava or Haydite (dust to 1/8"). Sorry about the correction, but soil fauna is a considerable benefit in raised beds, so lets not do anything to prevent it from helping us. In containers, it wouldn't matter.

Al

Ok, let's start over, Al.
I'm moving two existing raised beds. One is 4 x 8' and one is 4 x 10' (72 sq. ft). They've been filled with a commercial veggie garden blend since last September, and they've never been planted in where they are now. I don't even know how the current garden blend works, so this will be an experiment in progress.

We were mixing apples and oranges because my original question regarded how to address the compaction of my eBucket mix comprised of 50% of the same veggie garden blend (an accident!), and 50% homemade compost, Black Kow composted manure, coco coir, and leaf mold. And then I switched gears...

Now my question regards mixing the veggie blend and the eBucket mix together in the RBs, and creating a good soil structure with excellent oxygenation and drainage properties (am I speaking your language, yet?).

You replied:

I need to know how deep the 72 sq ft beds were, or the volume of soil that was in them, but basically, I would be sure there is at least a 50% fraction of mineral components in the RB soil. It would be great if you could locate the Turface & it's not too expensive. If the Black Kow was anything like most of the other "composted" manures I've seen, it was prolly at least 85% black sand anyway.

I'm not being a S/A when I say it's not rocket science. All you need to do is get reasonably close to a 50% mineral fraction, and it would be better if you could use something that holds water and improves aeration/drainage. Highly porous material fits that bill pretty well, which is why Turface looks pretty attractive.

Al

Al, I'm with you on this. Just have to find Turface in Houston.

The beds will be 10-11" deep.

Here's what the veggie blend looks like.

This message was edited Jul 21, 2010 6:43 PM

Southwest Fertilizer @ 5828 Bissonnet, Houston (713) 666-1744

BWI @ 1229 N Post Oak Rd, Houston (713) 682-4388

Ewing Irrigation @ 5260 Brittmoore Rd, Houston (713) 937-3799

John Deere Landscapes @ 4519 Brittmore Road, Houston (713) 849-2700

That should save you some effort & get you started ..... ;o)

Al

It seems pretty sandy to me.

Al, you got game! I've made runs to Southwest Fert on my lunch hour!

Ur carrying that 'gym' thing too far. Take a car - it comes in heavy bags and you'll kill yourself trying to get them back to work in that heat!

Al

Al,

You da man.

Alo

Gym,
Sand is good.

Pirate,

I agree

Al,
Did you look at my picture? I compared mine to yours and yours has many more "pebbles" than mine.

How much Turface do I need to mix into the garden blend for:
One 4 x 8' RB @ 11" planting depth
One 4 x 10' RB @ 11" planting depth

One more thing. I'll only be using these RBs until this fall/winter harvest is in, around April. By then, I'll be pulling up stakes again, but leaving the RBs to be used as flower gardens.

Comment, please.

Ahhh - another facet. ;o) If it's not going to be your bed for long, I'd wonder about putting much $/effort into it to make it all it can be. You're going to end up needing around 60-70 cu ft of soil en total. There's prolly a little over 1 cu ft of material in a bag of Turface (I have the actual volume in my notes @ home, but can't access from wk). You're going to have to decide to what $/effort you want to go, but ideally you'd want a total of 30-40 cu ft of a mineral component in your RB soil.

Al

Tapla,
Thought you'd like a progress report. Over a long 4-day weekend, I dug up and moved 1.5 cu. yards of the veggie blend from one property to another. I used my 5-gallon buckets for the transport. I believe the new single bed measures 4'-17 or 18' and is approximately 11" deep.

The veggie blend was very dry and sandy. I reviewed this thread and looked at the pic of your raised bed soil vs. mine. Are the little tan "pebbles" the Turface? If so, you do have much more than I have. Depending on $$ at SW Fertilizer, I might just purchase some to mix into the veggie blend. If it is too $$, can I substitute instead with the less expensive? Mechanic Shop Absorbent we were discussing?

Thanks.

Linda

The pic shows the second load of veggie blend soil being uploaded for movement to the new location. I drove the truck, and manage to put only minimal damage on the trailer (I still can't back it up...) ^^_^^

Bless your heart! ;o) You're not afraid of work - are you!? An admireable quality.

"Can I substitute instead with the less expensive Mechanic Shop Absorbent we were discussing?"

It might even be a better choice, Linda. It holds more water & has a little better CEC. I know the NAPA DE (part #8822) is stable. Check other calcined DEs or calcined clays by freezing overnight & thawing. If it's not mush, you're good to go. Some are using a CarQuest product in container soils (lots of good info here: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg062030238912.html ). Since you're looking for more water retention in a raised bed though, the finer NAPA product would prolly suit you better.

I'm smiling about the trailer thing, but it's not a snicker or laughing AT you because you can't back up a trailer (yet). It's more like the smile I might get when I see someone not afraid to involve themselves in a project, even if they have to learn as they go, fueled mainly by enthusiasm. So picture a really little smile on a guy who's nodding his head in approval while thinking "You go girl!"

Al

Thanks, Al...That's special, coming from you!

^^_^^^^_^^ (Me and Al doing the "relocation dance!")

This message was edited Aug 11, 2010 4:27 PM

Wow Linda, How is your back? that was the 2nd load, whew, go girl. would love to see pics once you get things growing. Annette

Oh yeah - why didn't I think of that? Great idea - pictures please!

I'm almost embarrased to be cheering from the sidelines - like I should be getting my hands dirty & helping, too! ;o)

Al

Ok, Ya'll. I'll be over this weekend prepping that bed for seedlings, and I'll be sure to take pics.

Tapla,
I've been reading up on your suggestion of using the shop absorbent. Have you sampled or done research on the "Oil Dri" absorbent from Sam's Club? It's only $4.62 for a 50 lb. bag. If I get a chance, I may run over at lunch to see what the content is, and I'll snap a pic of the ingredients to let you review it.

If it's not something you'd use, I'll go with the Napa DE recommendation, and scout around for the best price.

How much DE will I need to add a 3" depth to the 4'x18' RB? In this case, how many 25 or 50 lb bags?

Thanks!

If it's calcined DE and stable, it should work fine, but there's a hitch I forgot to mention. In containers, it's not important if the DE dust kills small soil life, but you might wish to reconsider using it in beds because of that. DE is like tiny glass crystals that cuts through insect skin, leaving them to dehydrate. I honestly can't say that I'm sure of what effect it has on soil life - partly because moisture diminishes it's effectiveness. Your call.

50 lbs of calcined DE is about 2 cu ft. 50 lbs of Turface is 1.4 cu ft. You'd need 18 cu ft to fill a 4'x18' area to a 3" depth. ;o)

Al



This message was edited Aug 14, 2010 6:29 PM

T,
So, DE in my RB might harm my earthworms, and the microorganisms that eat the decomp from the homemade compost? The microorganisms that the earthworms eat could be harmed? I LOVE MY EARTHWORMS. I HAVE HUGE WORMS....

Ok, looks like we mixed apples and oranges again! Not a problem. Below is a reply you gave to Salsadude who asked how to lighten up garden soil in this thread:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=7813025

You want your raised bed soils to be at least 50% mineral - otherwise you'll be seeing lots of shrinkage. I wouldn't add too much unfinished compost to the raised beds, because then you'll REALLY see a lot of shrinkage AND N immobilization.

Al

Ok. I won't add much. Actually, most of the leaves haven't really broken down yet, so I may just try to buy some finished compost to add. I'll wing it, and hope i don't crash and burn up my babies!

^^_^^

Whew.......

I just read through all this in one sitting...c/p'ing the most important info from Al....
Quite educational--even if i do not know what all the abbreviations mean....might be a good idea to at leas identify them once??

I will be starting a BIG (4'x24') raised bed this fall. here's my plan.....
Cutting down a stand of old evergreens to the very lowest point possible. Then--putting down a dbl. layer of commercial weed bloc....Then--Putting down a 2"-3" layer of some kind of rock (need advice what kind of rock would be best, please)--then filling the 24" high RB with a load of good topsoil, whatever compost I have from my composter--about 2 lg. storage totes full--and about 8 bags od semi-composted, leaves from last fall.

My goal is to make this a veggie bed....I have NO idea where I can purchase some of the things Tapla mentioned above. I am also NOT going to all this work myself.....too old! My 2 back-yard neighbors will be doing the hauling.....

I know tomatoes love calcium..Would ground up egg shells fill the bill? Would they be acceptable as the mineral component? Wish I knew where I could grind up Oyster shells! That would be great!

Any advice????
Thanks, Gita

In a very gentle way (I'm saying) you're misinterpreting some things & probably don't have the whole picture. You can save yourself effort & expense by skipping the landscape fabric and stone. Just lay down several layers of newspaper & then start with the soil. Tomatoes don't love Ca any more than other plants do - it's just that we see evidence of Ca(lcium) deficiencies that is most often out own doing, in BER (blossom end rot). Egg shells are CaCO3 (calcium carbonate) which is very insoluble over the short term, so they don't help in containers and only marginally in mineral soils. They need to be ground extremely fine in order to be of value. By a mineral component, I meant the soil should have the largest fraction materials like topsoil, coarse sand, Turface ...... something that doesn't break down, like the organic fraction will.

Al

MGGS - Miracle Grow Garden Soil
FWIW - for what it's worth
TTYL - talk to you later
BER - Blossom End Rot
IOW - in other words
LOL - laughing out loud
SWC - self watering Container
RBs - Raised Beds
DE - Diatomateous Earth
S/A - Smart A##
CEC- I don't know this one..
BYE - bye...

Linda

Linda and Al---

Thank you.....

The reason I was thinking of laying down the commercial weed blosck and the stones is that it will not be possible to dig up the roots of the old Evergreens...And--mostly b/c tey are, forever, entangled with the roots of the 2 Maples....
I KNOW that Maple roots will send up roots through anything....in ONE season--the soil will be filled with them.
That is why I want to lay down the Weed Block.....

This bed will be anywhere from 15'-20' from the 2 trees. The canopy of the trees will extend over the bed....
I am aware that heavy layers of Newspapers will be just as good as weed block in BEDS----BUT--this bed will be too large and too deep for me to change what I have put down at the base. So--I have to do somethinfg more "permanent"....I also mis-spelled the depth of the bed. IO plant o have it about 14" deep...NOT 24".....Sorry.

Al--
Have you ever heard of the product called "Chesapeake Blue"????
It was the most advertised product here to eliminate Blossom End Rot in Tomatoes.....
What is/was it? it was the end product of composting all the Crab shells (we consume here by the millions) and was touted to be the best thing ever for tomatoes....In my thinking--shells=Calcium....

Unfortunately--the people in the area where this recycling plant was, were complained enough about the odor that they closed down the production of Ch. Blue. A HUGE loss to us gardeners!

This was a local product and you may not have heard of it....

I will keep an eye on this Post to see what else i can learn....

Bed time for me now! Up at 4AM tomorrow to go to work.

Gita

Linda, thanks for the info on the abbreviations just goes to show you you can teach an old dog new tricks, Annette

Gita - Lots of things are touted as the best ever for .......

I'm going to add a qualifier as I say this: we know that a deficiency of Ca while fruits are forming causes BER. Normally this is not due to an actual shortage of Ca in the soil (solution); rather, it is due to early season rampant growth, where the growth rate outstrips the plants ability to supply Ca fast enough. This accelerated growth period can be further stimulated by excessively supplying N - over-fertilizing, or an erratic water supply. There is actually very little you can do about it, other than making sure your plants DO have a Ca supply and that you don't over-fertilize or water erratically. As growth slows and Ca uptake catches up to demand, the problem usually goes away on its own. While there are a number of other issues usually listed as causal of BER, they are probably best considered as minor contributors.

If you're using a commercially prepared soil, almost undoubtedly it's been pH adjusted with dolomitic lime, which should supply a season-long supply of Ca/Mg. If you're making your own soils, it's a good idea to include either lime or gypsum as a Ca source, depending on which is more appropriate (based on the pH of the soil ingredients). Most soluble fertilizers (like MG, Peter's, Schultz, others .....) don't contain Ca or Mg, making it extra important that we take steps to ensure availability of those elements via other sources, which would be lime (supplies both) or gypsum (CaSO4) + Epsom salts (MgSO4).

Al

I will only ask this once I promise, butr you can all just accept that I am sitting in the back of the class for a good reason. I planted 9 roses, two trees, one lilac, and a peach tree in containers. I mixed mgps with cannadian peat moss 50/50 and some soil conditioner that looks like little bits of coal. Now I realise that I have completely messed up the dirt in those pots. If I take it out of the pot and repot with what I have mixed with fine pine bark and some turface will the plants actually live? (will I actually live after all that work!) I used pots because I cannot dig in my dirt, it is too hard for me to do. Please tell me that they aren't all going to die ?

How long ago did you pot the plants? Was it MGPS or MGGS? There's a considerable difference.

Al

Al--

All very good information.....I will lock it in my brain--somewhere....

I do not really fertilize my Tomato plants at all--I know is is not good for them. NO MG--NO Shultz--NO Peters--or such. NO MG soils.....Just good old garden soil....

I try to amend my soil with Humus and manure (the one in bags at HD), but this year--I actually emptied my composter and had good, home-made compost to dig in.

I do not eat a lot of eggs (just me around here....), but I do save all the egg shells I have. When I have a lot--I blend them into a coarse mix and dig some in for my Tomatoes for the CA.

This Summer has been hard on tomatoes everywhere.....I hear about it in so many Posts....
The endless, close to a 100 degree heat for close to 2 months now--and lack of regular rain....it has been horrible.
I water my beds almost every day. So, they are never totally parched.

The only thing that might be in the negative area is that I have used this small bed (5 tomatoes, max) now for about 4-5 years. I just do not have anywhere else to plant them. Actually--I cannot say that i really know WHY I plant them at all????? When the harvest comes--I haul the extras off to work and give them away.
I live alone--am a senior--many years over--so I just cannot eat all that much of anything....

IF this heat ever breaks--maybe i can urge my "helpers" to get busy on this future bed....

Gita

Yes - that you had the tomatoes in the same beds for so long really increases the probability of disease - particularly wilt. Wish you all the best, (((((Gita))))).

Al

It was MGP and I potted them just a few weeks ago. Maybe three.

You did notice that the OP was talking about his problems using MG garden soil in containers, yes?

Al